Jump to content

Polikarpov R-5sss Armament Question


bjohns5

Recommended Posts

I'm trying to determine whether the Polikarpov R-5sss ground attack version retained the fuselage mounted machine gun that was present on other R-5 variants, or if it was eliminated when the 4 ShKAS guns were added into the lower wings. Information I have been able to review is inconclusive as to the total number of guns carried including the one mounted in the gunner's turret.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you do the budget of armament the rear gunner could be either single or double MG DA2. The SSS as the "heavily armored one" has doubled DA2 I think. 

Do you have the Maslov book on R-5 and R-Z ? It is very helpful.  

I found a nice photo with  look of wings MGs http://www.restmodels.com/pages/models/RM4804/r5bomb.jpg

Here was a very informative thread on R-5, in one post there is a comment that the fuselage MG stays in SSS. 

On a Polish web page https://www.samoloty.pl/encyklopedia-samolotobby-309/zagraniczne-hobby-257/rozpoznawcze-hobby-299/rosja-zsrr-hobby-567/polikarpov-r-5-hobby-569

it is said, that R-5 Sh has even 8 fixed MG plus 2 of gunner position, no info on sss.

BTW - I have a soft spot on Polikarpov R5, RZ remaining with me from this build 

 Regards

J-W

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the info. I'm converting the AMG 1/48 R-5 to the R-5sss ground attack version. (I know AMG will probably announce the release of a kit of that version as soon as I finish mine, but when that happens you can thank me.) I'm making the assumption that the fuselage-mounted gun was eliminated from the R-5sss because I imagine the Soviet designers would have figured with the firepower of four ShKAS guns in the wings outside the propeller arc why would they also need the weight of another synchronized gun in the fuselage firing at a slower rate, and greater bomb carrying capacity would have been more important. Plus the Rest Models kit of the R-5sss did not have the fuselage gun and I figure they had access to more research material than I do and I'll follow their lead. So I will be filling the gun trough in my kit, and filling in the fabric areas on the inner half of the lower wings to represent the area that was covered with plywood on the R-5sss. The major difficulty when trying to research the R-5sss is there weren't many of them compared to the large pool of other R-5 versions, and the only SURE way to tell you are looking at an R-5sss (or R-Z but they are easy to identify by the covered cockpit) and not another variant is if you can spot the wing root fairings. And for some reason pretty much all the existing R-5sss photos in circulation show the aircraft from the starboard side and so don't shed any light on the question of whether there was a gun on the opposite side.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/14/2022 at 2:09 PM, Dmitriy1967 said:

Images from the Russian search engine. They might come in handy.

 

Polikarpov R-5sss

 

One of the first things I learned when I first started researching aircraft from other countries was to learn the name of the aircraft in the native language of the country and search the internet for that. :) I don't know much Russian but I quickly learned to identify Самолеты and Поиск.

Edited by bjohns5
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there were R5 sh (sturmovik, with increased fire power) and R5 sss (skoryj samoliet - with improved aerodynamics to get higher speeds). People, including me, often mix them... BTW, the R-z is much more different from R5 than only closed canopy. I will look to Maslov book what he is telling on armament...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maslov give in a summary for R5SSS only 1 PW1 MG firing forward and 1 or 2 DA-2 in gunner position (Table with technical data of R5, R5SSS and R-Z in the end of his book). 

However, in detailed description of SSS type it is said, that main difference between R5 and R5SSS were fairings covering the fuselage-lower wing connection, internal bomb bay in fuselage  and SzKas (7.62 mm) MG  (apparently instead of PW-1) and additional 4 SzKas on wings and replacements of type of gunner turret with also replacing the guns there for SzKas. So it is inconsistent with what is given in main text  in the same book and  in a table...

Finally 620 SSS were produced. So it looks that four additional guns were introduced in R5Sh and then next improved version of R5Sh was R5SSS. All R5 used in Spain were of SSS variant (besides R-Z, which is a different plane in fact). No word is about removing of synchronized gun.

PM me if you if you like to read more of the Maslov's text by yourself :)

Regards

J-W

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

p.S.

On this drawings

21-1.jpg

The R5sss (lower) displays different shape of MG in fuselage compare to regular R5 (ShKas instead of PW-1). But the gun it is there, so the author of drawings was apparently sure about it...

Regards

J-W

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, JWM said:

p.S.

On this drawings

The R5sss (lower) displays different shape of MG in fuselage compare to regular R5 (ShKas instead of PW-1). But the gun it is there, so the author of drawings was apparently sure about it...

Regards

J-W

An example of why I never trust drawings unless I have photos to confirm the details. Otherwise a drawing is usually just the draftsman's best guess as to what is there. To definitively answer this question I remembered that I have a scan of the 1936 Technical Manual for the R-5 "CCC" so I ran the first couple pages through Yandex Image Translation and on page 4 found a summary listing of the technical changes between the R-5CCC and the standard R-5. It states that the fuselage machine gun was deleted and the fuselage structure and surface features of the cowl altered accordingly.

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

Edited by bjohns5
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
2 hours ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

Maybe there is something useful here:

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/r-5/tapani/profiles.htm

Planes red 2 and red 3 are armed and could give some input. 

Thank you. I find your site very useful and I did go there seeking answers to my questions.  However the only verifiable R-5SSS models in those profile discussions are in the photos in the text associated with "White 15," though the profile itself lacks most of the identifying features of an "SSS" except for the wheel fairings which were largely removed from service aircraft within a couple years since they had a tendency to clog with mud and dirt when operating off unpaved fields. 

Edited by bjohns5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good afternoon, colleagues! Here are the links on the plane.
Very voluminously described about the plane http://www.airwar.ru/enc/aww2/ss.html ?ysclid=l4z7bcqyqp4086912 And more https://topwar.ru/73408-legendarnyy-r-5.html ?ysclid=l4z7chztnt322584018. And more https://armedman.ru/samoletyi/1919-1936-samoletyi/razvedyivatelnyiy-samolet-r-5-sssr.html ?ysclid=l4z7ih4ebf592583142. Here is a photo from the museum https://igor113.livejournal.com/1212434.html ?ysclid=l4z7j9yx4g386015099. Here's the description http://pro-samolet.ru/samolety-sssr-ww2/samolet-razvedka/550-military-aircraft-p-5?start=2&ysclid=l4z7l1dok9470170773. Here's an excerpt....R-5SSS: also known simply as SSS; modification to achieve improved flight characteristics; chassis with streamlined racks and wheel fairings, M-17F engine under the hood of a modified design and stationary armament increased to two SHKAS machine guns; the attack aircraft variant had four SHKAS machine guns on the lower wing; more than 100 copies of the CCC model were built in 1935-36; maximum speed increased to 269 km/hour (167 mph), and the practical ceiling is up to 8000 m (26245 ft). There is a booklet on P-5. I'll take a look at my place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Here's another one. Here only according to the modification of the R-5SSS.
High-speed light attack aircraft SSS (R-5SSS) http://xn--80aafy5bs.xn--p1ai/aviamuseum/aviatsiya/sssr/shturmoviki/skorostnoj-legkij-shturmovik-sss-r-5sss/?ysclid=l4z7s5f2mj636633924

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a booklet magazine by Mikhail Maslov
P-5 and P-Z reconnaissance aircraft
(Armada Series) – 22)https://coollib.com/b/289183/read ?ysclid=l4z7x6m37u411525948. I hope it helped a little. If you have any questions, write.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/29/2022 at 6:46 AM, mechanic said:

I give you a link with the drawings. There is also your SSS with machine-gun containers. Good luck!  https://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft20000-6.htm 

Thank you. I have all 6 known printed book references for the R-5/R-Z aircraft as well as copies of the Technical Manuals for the R-5, R-Z and R-5CCC aircraft which I have machine translated into English. I've also found pretty much every website with photos and info on the R-5 family in English and Russian. The problem is the various references contradict each other in several instances. Even the R-5CCC Technical Manual contradicts its own self when it says in the text that the structure of the R-5CCC was altered to eliminate the fuselage gun, but in the illustration of the changed R-5CCC fuselage framework provided, they still show the cutouts in the arches of the 1st and 2nd frames to accommodate the bullet trough. I finally decided the text is most probably correct, and that the illustrations were likely taken from the original R-5 manual and edited to fit the R-5CCC and whoever edited the drawings just missed a few details. I'm proceeding under the assumption that the text in the technical manual is correct and the fuselage gun was eliminated. 

 

spacer.png

Edited by bjohns5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/28/2022 at 10:40 PM, Massimo Tessitori said:

I see, it should have some fairings at the base of the lower wing that are not on the drawing. Do you see other things to correct?

Massimo - There are several visible differences between the R-5SSS and the regular R-5. I have found very few photos of the R-5SSS which makes sense since they were few in number and mostly spent their active service at frontier airfields where casual photography would not have been welcome. The attached photo of an R-5SSS being bombed up during the Winter War shows most of the external differences. 1)The SSS aircraft had sheet metal fairings covering the attachment points of all the exterior struts and support wires. I haven't found a good photo showing these on a SSS, but they were nearly identical on the R-Z which I have attached a photo of. 2) Most, if not all, photos taken of regular R-5s show them with the TUR-6 gun mount for the observer with either a single or paired DA machine guns with "can" magazines. The R-5SSS was equipped with either a manual TUR-8 or a powered TUR-9 gun mount carrying a single ShKAS machine gun fed by belt from an ammo box. Those later TUR turrets are noticeable by the heavy welded "U" shaped structure compared to the light-weight TUR-6 which was basically a WWI-style Scarff ring. 3) The R-5SSS of course carried 4 ShKAS guns inside the lower wings mounted sideways with the barrels exposed. These are extremely difficult to identify in most photos. If you see the lower surface of the wing as in this photo, you can see the metal cover over the gun bay with circular link ejection openings and the rectangular slots for ejecting the empty cartridge cases. There is a cover of the same size on the top of the wing without any openings. 4) On the R-5SSS the support bars of the bomb racks were built inside the wing structure versus mounted on the lower surface of the wing on the standard R-5, so that the only exposed parts are the bomb crutches and the safety wires. The SSS also only had 2 bomb racks on each wing compared to the standard R-5's 4 per wing. 5) The SSS had large quarter-rounded aerodynamic fairings across the top of the lower wing to fuselage join. 6) Many of these features are also found on the R-Z, making it difficult to tell an SSS from an R-Z in photos. The biggest giveway that you are looking at an R-Z and not an SSS is the lowered canopy opening and the plexiglass canopy covers which this R-5SSS does not have. 7) On the R-5 a different system was used to shock absorb the landing gear, and the landing gear struts were made of a stronger metal alloy so both the faired "bulge" over the shock and the tubing in general are noticeably smaller on the SSS compared to the regular R-5. '8) The R-5SSS had an internal bomb bay under the floor of the pilot's compartment with 4 pairs of narrow doors. This is the only photo I have found showing those doors.

 

As I mentioned above, R-5SSS aircraft were built with aerodynamic wheel covers. But it seems that most were removed from aircraft soon after entering service so they show up in few photos. One feature that is often noticeable, but not in this photo, is that the SSS had a teardrop shaped fairing covering the connector where the four front landing gear struts attached together in the center. Another more obvious feature that the R-5 models almost always had but the SSS did not, was a "u" shaped protective guard below each with tip made of metal tubing. Finally, regular R-5 aircraft had all surfaces of their upper and lower wings covered in fabric. On the SSS however, to strengthen the wing for the machine gun mounting, the lower wings were covered fully in plywood from the root to about the 8th rib, and then just the front half of the wing, approximately, was plywood covered for a further four ribs. And of course, though I had found no photos to document it, on the SSS there should not be a machine gun on the port side forward of the wind screen, and no gun trough leading out through the engine cover as found in the standard R-5.

 

I'm sure there are other differences that I'm missing, but that is what comes to mind from my research. Unfortunately most of the photos that I have collected are not clear enough to show most of these details.

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

Edited by bjohns5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello everyone Here's what I found on the P-5: according to the official technical description, the scout P-5 was structurally evaluated as a device of mixed, wood-metal construction. The supporting frame of the R-5 airframe is made of pine timber, slats and plywood. The skin of the fuselage is plywood, the wings and tail are linen. To connect the airframe elements, metal was used in the form of welded assemblies made of soft sheet steel. The nodes are quite complex in shape, numerous and busy. It was these nodes that became the main reason why the P-5 could not be implemented at the aircraft factory No. 31 in Taganrog. Duralumin was used only to a limited extent: for engine cowling, in the wing struts, wingtips and tail. Ailerons only on the upper wing, on the lower one there were duralumin arches that protect against damage during landing. But according to R-5SSS — also known simply as CCC. Modification to achieve improved flight characteristics, chassis with streamlined racks and wheel fairings, M-17F engine under the hood of a modified design and stationary armament increased to two SHKAS machine guns. The variant of the attack aircraft had four SHKAS machine guns on the lower wing. More than 100 copies of the CCC model were built in 1935-1936. The maximum speed has been increased to 269 km/h, and the practical ceiling is up to 8000 m. And also about the placement of the course machine gun in the fuselage. The recess for the machine gun remained after the first changes to the design for the installation of the machine gun. Why change the design for each new model of a MILITARY aircraft? What if it comes in handy? It is still unknown where it will be used and what tasks it will perform. Understand, colleague, this simple design of the aircraft was molded from it, especially at the front, as from plasticine. If there was a notch for a machine gun on one particular modification, and the aircraft performs the functions of a bomber, then there is no problem to convert this aircraft into an attack aircraft or a fighter)))(just kidding). I hope I explained it quite simply, on my fingers))))

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's another one I found about machine guns...R-5SH — a variant of the attack aircraft tested in 1931, initially with four additional PV-1 machine guns, in streamlined containers above the lower wing; had a ventral container for light bombs with a total weight of up to 500 kg. The 1933 production model had an M-17B engine and eight machine guns instead of four.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, mechanic said:

Here's another one I found about machine guns...R-5SH — a variant of the attack aircraft tested in 1931, initially with four additional PV-1 machine guns, in streamlined containers above the lower wing; had a ventral container for light bombs with a total weight of up to 500 kg. The 1933 production model had an M-17B engine and eight machine guns instead of four.

I have two photos of the front left side of the hood. But I can't insert them((

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...