Milos Gazdic Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 Hello all, Would somebody be able to tell me which publication has the best readily available French WWII paint chips (not CMYK print outs as in some books) Appreciate any pointers! Thanks Milos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiampieroSilvestri Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 Maybe this is of some help. http://www.livre-aviation.com/CAMOUFLAGES-MARQUES-DE-L-ARMEE-DE-L-AIR-39-45-p-18648-c-1400_1402.html Saluti Giampiero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 It's a lovely book and highly recommended, but won't provide what he wants. If such exists at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishplanebeer Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 (edited) As with all such requests, and there are many, there is no definitive right or wrong answer given all the vagaries of light, shading, fading, interpreting b/w photos, scale effect etc....just to mention a few. Sorry I can't be of more help but this is the usual minefield or COW (can of worms). Regards Colin. Edited June 6, 2022 by fishplanebeer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milos Gazdic Posted June 6, 2022 Author Share Posted June 6, 2022 5 hours ago, GiampieroSilvestri said: Maybe this is of some help. http://www.livre-aviation.com/CAMOUFLAGES-MARQUES-DE-L-ARMEE-DE-L-AIR-39-45-p-18648-c-1400_1402.html Hello all & thanks for suggestion I am awaiting the arrival of that book any moment now. I have ordered it from France during the Shanghai lockdown about 2 months ago but yes - it does not contain what I am after. Colin, I know that there is a story that all camouflage colors vary depending on all possible factors. I also been reading in one of D.520 that French colors were mixed based on base colors given according to the chips (and I would suppose it would depend highly on who was mixing them & when how the results gonna look - which would give another "layer" of uncertainty to the story). Still, since I am planning a series of models on this subject, I would for sure like to know in which direction to shoot, even if I don't hit the bulls eye. I know that general online discussion puts us in a "ballpark area" but I somehow like checking things in real life... Somehow, except some very old book which is as rare as holly grail - I don't seem to see any color chips out there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stew Dapple Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 Hi Milos, There is a colour chart available as a download here from the Seawings website - the first one in the list is for Armee de l'Air and Aeronavale colours. I can't vouch for the charts being 100% accurate given that they have been scanned and digitised, but I hope you may find it useful in seeking your ballpark area https://www.seawings.co.uk/colchartgal.htm Cheers, Stew 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael louey Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 Hi Milos, As others have mentioned, the Ehrengardt is a really great reference - I've only got minimal French so likely will need to use an online translator. The only colour chips I've ever seen for Armee d' la Air is one from Illiad which I got a long time ago with a few others of theirs for lesser publicised air forces. I don't know the background of their research so can't comment on their accuracy http://www.iliad-design.com/charts.html Regards Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steben Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti_K Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 Hello Milos, here is a couple of photos showing you the original wartime paints. Maybe these photos help you. The old Humbrol Authentic colour range give a very good match for the brown and Humbrol 86 for the green. Cheers, Antti 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steben Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 1 hour ago, Antti_K said: Hello Milos, here is a couple of photos showing you the original wartime paints. Maybe these photos help you. The old Humbrol Authentic colour range give a very good match for the brown and Humbrol 86 for the green. Cheers, Antti I for one can't see the pictures alas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milos Gazdic Posted June 6, 2022 Author Share Posted June 6, 2022 Hello all @Antti_K Thanks for the post but somehow I cannot see the links / images. @Steben Do you know where this scan comes from? Seems like these are real chips attached to the page. Is that maybe Iliad chart? @Michael louey I will order the chart now. Thanks for the pointer. If anyone has any comments on this chart - please let me know. @Stew Dapple Unfortunately, Seawings site doesn't seem to work for me ;( Neither the homepage nor the link you have posted. Do you by any chance have the chart saved? Thanks to all! Milos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfire Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 Here's another wartime photo And some colour charts that I have found on the web. Cheers Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfire Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 Here are some of the references I used for my builds, I also made out my own paint chips to compare the available paints against the illustrations in the books and the Iliad Designs chips. Hope this helps Cheers Dennis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfire Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 It's been a long time since I built any French subjects probably 2013ish and I had forgotten about these other references. I found very them very useful for paint details, FS numbers and paint chips, especially the Camouflage decals one, but in the end I made my own mind up after looking at the available paint and making my own chips. Cheers Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steben Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Milos Gazdic said: @Steben Do you know where this scan comes from? Seems like these are real chips attached to the page. Is that maybe Iliad chart? Yes it is! Seems the browns and greens were diverse. The green is bright (as pictured on the HAWK book cover), the dark brown seems very dark. It is in French literally called "burnt umber" so look not too far, just as the light brown is in French called "raw sienna". The raw sienna swatch looks lighter than the kaki or green, so most pictures seems the dark brown IMHO. The Dewoitine picture seems (discoloured) Brun Foncé and Kaki. With "Kaki" here being a not too dark olive drab, probably something like ANA613. Edited June 6, 2022 by Steben 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milos Gazdic Posted June 6, 2022 Author Share Posted June 6, 2022 Dear Dennis, So much help! Thank you all! Really appreciate it. Since my last post above, I've made an order on Iliad site for 2 charts + a book some of you should get some discount points on there... I always thought that the image you've posted should basically be much darker What always made me wonder with this airframe is that 2nd color patch looking from the nose. It somehow always seemed like Terre de Sienne for me rather than Khaki which I seem to see as 5th segment (just under the cockpit). I know there were never D.520 with 4 top camo colors but please see the difference between 2nd & 5th segment to understand what I mean. Also, an interesting features that I notice on this image are the "outlines to 3rd segment which look darker, just like the painter did the edges around painted segment to give them definition, showing how transparent the color application generally was. Last thing is the lighter are just bellow front of exhausts going over the intakes lips all the way to the Gris Bleu Clair undersurfaces, with the tiny segment having very similar value to the GBC itself. I know I could easily be imagining all this... but it's just interesting to see. (BTW Apparently the series of photos was done by the wife of the pilot when she came to visit him) The color chart you have posted from that 50s or 60s publication was the only one I have seen so far myself. Iliad one is a novel discovery for me. For my ignorant eye (when it comes to French camouflage colors) these chips looked very close to the colors I have been imagining to have been applied to French Air-force machines in late 30s, early 40s. I for sure prefer it over the small modern / digital chart with the grayscale swatches on the bottom. I wanted to buy the French Aircraft 1939-1942 books but they were turning out way too expensive from which ever place I've tried to order to Shanghai. Having few books about the Luftaffe from the same publisher, I was not 100% sure if these French titles were worth it. But considering the fact that the publisher is French house, maybe the research for these was more in-depth. One thing I've noticed on the chips card that you & Steben posted is that Iliad mentions Jaune Sahara (Sahara Yellow). It's a first time that I have ever seen this color! Do they write up anything about it? Anyone else seen it being discussed before? It is interesting because of some D.520 I've been looking at... Finally the thing you have done with your personal chips card is exactly what I would LOVE to do! A way to go! You have used some paints that I cannot lay my hands on here in China. Since moving here 8 years ago I have migrated to Mr Colors paints for 80% of my work. I am buying some other bands here & there but not if I don't have to. In the past I've been stuck to Model Master colors & still have so many of them back in Serbia. I guess MM stands for Model Master paints? ACF? X (Xtracolor?) H (Humbrol) Are the ticked ones √ the colors you chose for your builds? Did you do any mixing or used the straight colors from the production? Have you been lighting them up for your builds? I have Kagero's Fighter's over France book back home but I was not able to travel out of China for last 2.5 years due to the Covid restrictions... :(( The remaining two books from Mushroom I don't have. I do have D.520 from them (and that is the aircraft that I wanna cover with few builds, hence all this). Thank you so much!!! Milos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steben Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 (edited) The discolourisation on these pictures are can make similar colours look different. Beware! It does look a bit like burnt umber and raw sienna are used with no green whatsoever given the green on the ground... I've made a simulation of what burnt umber and sienna could look like: And this is raw sienna and "kaki" (OD) Edited June 6, 2022 by Steben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfire Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 Hi Milos, I think that I used straight paints for my builds, though the D520 had a few different paint schemes, I also painted most of the markings as well. The builds are all on here though they are old, I was surprised to see that I started the D520 in 2007 https://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?/topic/47465-azur-battle-of-france-ms-406c1/ Cheers Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonlanceHR Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 Beware of the Hataka Gris Bleu Clair - it is too blue. Acording to BS_W, best match is Mr. Surfacer 1200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milos Gazdic Posted June 7, 2022 Author Share Posted June 7, 2022 Hello Steben, I seem to have missed part of your post when I've been posting yesterday. Quote Seems the browns and greens were diverse. Yes, there seem to have been few variations of both Greens & Browns but it seems that in one given period each factory making certain model was using mostly one of each of these colors - one brown & one green (if khaki can be called green - since it's mixture of brown & green in my own mind). My plan is to build few D.520s and as far as I've understood all of them have been in 3 top colors that didn't change during the production & one single undersurface color (except those few one offs like machines in Rayak & similar). As a photographer by profession (heavily interested in analogue processes going back to 1850s) I am aware of the discolorations & problems that photographs bring to our "estimates" of reality in 1940s and camouflage applied to machines so dear to our hearts. Quote It does look a bit like burnt umber and raw sienna are used with no green whatsoever To me that amazing color photo of D.520 looks like it shows 4 camouflage colors on top surfaces, although that contradicts all the things written & said about D.520s camouflage. So I know I could be wrong... Dennis, I will check your builds in a moment. Been working since morning without stop... Will comment on those in a little while. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfire Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 No problem Milos, the builds are very old and dated but I really enjoyed them and the research that went into them, no doubt there are more modern and probably more accurate paints out there now.. Cheers Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckw Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 17 hours ago, Milos Gazdic said: One thing I've noticed on the chips card that you & Steben posted is that Iliad mentions Jaune Sahara (Sahara Yellow). It's a first time that I have ever seen this color! Do they write up anything about it? Anyone else seen it being discussed before? It is interesting because of some D.520 I've been looking at... Jaune Sahara looks a lot like Chamois to me ... given that Chamois isn't mentioned in that chart, I wonder if its an alternate name? Or perhaps a name for the same paint when used as an exterior finish (as may have been the case with some D.520s in North Africa). Cheers Colin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Aereo Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 I thought that Jaune Sahara was a temporary camouflage paint, rather than a protective coating like Chamois... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milos Gazdic Posted June 7, 2022 Author Share Posted June 7, 2022 Quote Jaune Sahara looks a lot like Chamois to me ... given that Chamois isn't mentioned in that chart, I wonder if its an alternate name? Or perhaps a name for the same paint when used as an exterior finish (as may have been the case with some D.520s in North Africa). Colin, I am for sure not an expert in French Camouflage but quite contrary but my thought exactly! My only surprise was the fact that Chamis is internal structure paint and if I understood right should not be exposed to elements. So Super Aereo might be more correct. It's just that I never heard of it before, and wonder why none of the articles dealing with Rayak "buff" machines mentioned this color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckw Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 12 minutes ago, Milos Gazdic said: So Super Aereo might be more correct. It's just that I never heard of it before, and wonder why none of the articles dealing with Rayak "buff" machines mentioned this color. Exactly my confusion - I tried to resolve this conundrum when building my Rayak based D.520. There seemed to be a consensus that a) the aircraft probably were 'buff' but b) chamois could only be used internally. If a 'Jaune Sahara' did indeed exist, it would be a neat solution! I too have never come across this color before, and AFAIK it has never been produced by any model paint range. In the end I opted to use Chamois for my D.520 on the basis that if that wasn't the correct paint, it was a at least color that looked very like it. Cheers Colin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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