Unpainted swallows

[Kov1985]

Hello everyone. I’m out fishing for information again. What I need this time is some insight into what colours these last ditch me-262s were based on some aircraft anatomy I’m not familiar with.

 

 

I understand the grey putty over the panel joins, but what’s going on between every 2nd join along the fuselage. Is that putty? Primer? Light grey? Rlm02?

 

I doubt this is an actual colour photo from the time, but one edited post war. Someone correct me if that’s wrong.

 

here’s some more pics…

 

 

 

 

I am assuming that the nose and tail vertical is 02 grey green, with light grey primer along the joins, but that’s just an assumption. 
 

if anyone has more detailed insight into any of this, please enlighten me. I’m doing werk no 712 (second image) like someone did but in 48th scale. I have a few ideas how to pull it off convincingly but just need to know which colours to go with.

 

once I finish my trio of 48th tamiya corsairs that is (I’ll post them when I’m done), it’ll be this next so I’ve got some time to research.

 

thanks all in advance.

[Dave Swindell]

19 minutes ago, Kov1985 said:

I understand the grey putty over the panel joins, but what’s going on between every 2nd join along the fuselage. Is that putty? Primer? Light grey? Rlm02?

An early attempt at pre-shading? they didn't have time to get the top coat on? I'll get mine

[warhawk]

These final Me262s were basically in NMF, with panel lines filled with putty. This explaines the variation in the panel tones in Your first pic - just difference in unpainted aluminium panels.

 

1 hour ago, Kov1985 said:

 

Looking at the image below, I'm inclined to use some light grey for the putty itself (and maybe even apply it with a brush, then polish it down).

 

source: Pinterest

 

As You can see, various parts of the nose and tail sub-assemblies could be primed with RLM02 or some other color at hand. These sub-assemblies were probbably left-overs from earlier production batches.

I suggest finding as many photos of the exact Wnr. You are planning to model, as there were variations in which bits were primed, and which panels were filled. 

 

1 hour ago, Kov1985 said:

I understand the grey putty over the panel joins, but what’s going on between every 2nd join along the fuselage. Is that putty? Primer? Light grey? Rlm02?

 

To me it looks that these RLM02 primed parts also got puttied, then sanded/polished down and as a result everything got mushed together (bits of primer remaining with patches of putty and metal showing along panel and rivet lines).

 

Regards,

Aleksandar

Edited June 2, 2022 by warhawk

[Kov1985]

30 minutes ago, warhawk said:

These final Me262s were basically in NMF, with panel lines filled with putty. This explaines the variation in the panel tones in Your first pic - just difference in unpainted aluminium panels.

 

 

Looking at the image below, I'm inclined to use some light grey for the putty itself (and maybe even apply it with a brush, then polish it down).

 

source: Pinterest

 

As You can see, various parts of the nose and tail sub-assemblies could be primed with RLM02 or some other color at hand. These sub-assemblies were probbably left-overs from earlier production batches.

I suggest finding as many photos of the exact Wnr. You are planning to model, as there were variations in which bits were primed, and which panels were filled. 

 

Regards,

Aleksandar

Thanks Aleksander

 

Sorry I’m a bit confused by the first thing you said, are you saying the parts I’ve circled here are NMF of darker tone? Or puttied and sanded with the grey? I’m not talking about the panel lines, but the every second panels themselves

 

 

here’s a few more pics of the one itself I’m modelling…

 

 

 

obviously 02 and light grey putty for the nose with bits of what looks like rlm81,

but it has the odd darker fuselage panels like the first pic as well.

[Kov1985]

 

and a couple more of 711
 

 

[Werdna]

39 minutes ago, Kov1985 said:

Sorry I’m a bit confused by the first thing you said, are you saying the parts I’ve circled here are NMF of darker tone? Or puttied and sanded with the grey? I’m not talking about the panel lines, but the every second panels themselves

 

To me, that looks like just additional application of the primer/filler, possibly to level-out the fuselage surface (as opposed to just the panel lines or rivet holes).  It's also worth considering that not all of those dural panels would have been supplied in typical 'NMF' - some may have been given an anti-corrosion coating, or even supplied with the marking blue (or similar) still on..

[warhawk]

4 hours ago, Kov1985 said:

Sorry I’m a bit confused by the first thing you said, are you saying the parts I’ve circled here are NMF of darker tone? Or puttied and sanded with the grey? I’m not talking about the panel lines, but the every second panels themselves

 

 

I see what You mean now. It doesn't make sense to putty and sand entire panel, as it is more time and labor-consuming than to just spray the thing with primer (which was itself taken out of production process in order to save time).

So, either it was the primer, or as @Werdna suggested, some sort of protective anti-corrosion coating, already applied to metal sheets before being cut and used for these panels at the Messerschmitt factory.

(and therefore could just have a slight tint and less gloss than the bare metal ones.)

 

BTW, if You're planning to do Wnr.111712, here's a topic I started a while ago (as I also intend to build that one):

 

A video of it has also popped-up recently, but the quality is not the best...

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by warhawk

[Kov1985]

I’m leaning towards it being light anti-corrosion tarnishing the stock alloy. Here’s a couple screenshots for the movie. Particularly the image from the bird’s 6 o’clock you can see it still has a mirror polish under the black cross on the port side, suggesting it’s still NMF. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hopefully these images will be useful to someone who’s building this one like myself.

[Milos Gazdic]

Ćao,

please note that the nose of the given machine might have been previously used on some other 262 and re-used on this one but with all the puttying applied over original camouflage or it could equally be a sub-assembly grafted to the remaining part of the airframe. For me that color on the nose seems too dark to be RLM 02.

As for dark-light-dark-light panels, I don't know any definite answer for the exact color of those darker panels, but taking in account that jigs for each segment were different & "rings" were made in parallel production from different sheet batches... it can be a protective layer as suggested above by Aca or someone else... or could be that the sheet was flipped "inside out" and even that could cause tonal difference. On the other hand when you look on the close up shot:

you will notice that there is a thin area just next to the putty applied on the panel line  (which probably was sanded off to the bare metal bellow when polishing the putty) suggesting that there was a coat of something applied to those panels (IMHO prior to the construction).

[Kari Lumppio]

Hi!

 

I have understood that Me 262 nose was made of steel. As such it was to be painted for corrosion protection even when the aluminum parts were to be left unpainted.

 

Of the rear fuselage. Once again I have understood that in Messerschmitt fuselage every other section was formed part (half) with joggled edges and every other section was sheet metal. The apparent colour variation might be the surface being different after different manufacturing processes?

 

I may very well be wrong.

 

Cheers,

Kari

[MDriskill]

For what it's worth, here is a fantastic 1/72 Me 262 build by Polish researcher / master modeler Marek Mozdzen. You will find his approach to the colors interesting.

 

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/72nd_aircraft/me-262-a-2a-in-natural-colors-t8061.html

 

PURE opinion on my part...but I believe Kari's and Milos's notes on construction details are on the right track.

 

In aircraft construction, it is common to apply a preliminary protective varnish coating to sheet aluminum stock prior to final fabrication. This served as scuff protection during handling, short-term corrosion prevention, and made it easy to see scribed working marks. Typically this was removed (or simply overpainted) for exterior finish painting. But on 262's - built late in the war when finishes were being simplified - it might be that such coatings were simply left in place. This may be what we see on those sections that were cut from flat sheets in stead of being pre-formed.

 

As an example, Curtiss used a bright Prussian blue varnish for this, as seen in this classic "Life" magazine photo:

 

Here are some shots apparently showing similar coatings in use on Fw 190's earlier in the war:

 

 

 

I don't know what color the German shop varnish was, but if this speculation is correct, the photo in the initial post clearly shows a medium-value translucent gray.

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by MDriskill

[Kov1985]

36 minutes ago, MDriskill said:

For what it's worth, here is a fantastic 1/72 Me 262 build by Polish researcher / master modeler Marek Mozdzen. You will find his approach to the colors interesting.

 

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/72nd_aircraft/me-262-a-2a-in-natural-colors-t8061.html

 

I very much think Kari is on to something. In aircraft construction, it was very common to apply a preliminary protective varnish coating to sheet aluminum prior to fabrication. This served as scuff protection while the sheets were handled, short-term corrosion prevention, and made it easy to see scribed working marks. Typically this was removed (or simply overpainted) for exterior finish painting. But on 262's - built late in the war when finishes were being simplified - it may be that that the plain sheet metal sections had such a coating which was not removed.

 

As an example, Curtiss used a bright Prussian blue varnish for this, which is discussed here:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/ww2-aircraft-sheet-metal-question-t527181.html

 

And here are a couple shots showing similar coatings in use on Fw 190's earlier in the war:

 

 

I don't know what color the German shop varnish was, but I might guess a medium-dark, slightly glossy, translucent gray.

 

Thanks mate,

 

His build looks phenomenal, exactly what I want to pursue with my own.

 

I’d love to know how he achieved this effect over the NMF, so of course I can’t find it anywhere. Which is typical. 

 

[Milos Gazdic]

8 hours ago, Kari Lumppio said:

I have understood that Me 262 nose was made of steel. As such it was to be painted for corrosion protection even when the aluminum parts were to be left unpainted.

Hello Kari,
I am not sure which aluminum alloy was used but generally if it is not alclad or similar self protecting sheet (as I have learned recently) aluminum like dural for instance should be protected for longevity of the airframe. If they thought that machines will not pass the process of actual oxidation / corrosion maybe they would decide to leave them untreated. Steel would for sure rust faster.  

[Icedtea]

On 6/2/2022 at 4:22 PM, Kov1985 said:

Hello everyone. I’m out fishing for information again. What I need this time is some insight into what colours these last ditch me-262s were based on some aircraft anatomy I’m not familiar with.

 

 

I understand the grey putty over the panel joins, but what’s going on between every 2nd join along the fuselage. Is that putty? Primer? Light grey? Rlm02?

 

I doubt this is an actual colour photo from the time, but one edited post war. Someone correct me if that’s wrong.

 

here’s some more pics…

 

 

 

 

I am assuming that the nose and tail vertical is 02 grey green, with light grey primer along the joins, but that’s just an assumption. 
 

if anyone has more detailed insight into any of this, please enlighten me. I’m doing werk no 712 (second image) like someone did but in 48th scale. I have a few ideas how to pull it off convincingly but just need to know which colours to go with.

 

once I finish my trio of 48th tamiya corsairs that is (I’ll post them when I’m done), it’ll be this next so I’ve got some time to research.

 

thanks all in advance.

It might be from the direction of the original sheet from which the fuselage panels were cut. I've seen it on other materials...When the sheet is 'up' the colour has a certain tone or shade then when the sheet is rotated 180 degrees the sheet takes on a different tone. So when marking out the panels on a large sheet of aluminium the panels may be marked out in different directions to waste less material. The assembled panels then reflect in different tones when assembled together. Hope this makes some sense.

[SafetyDad]

A small point in your original post - the colour picture is real, not colourised later. Colour film was available in war-time Germany and other colour shots of late-war airframes exist. 
 

Bare metal with filler paste is the most likely combination for my thoughts. Me 262s were built from a mix of steel and aircraft grade aluminium (the NASM encountered significant dissimilar metal corrosion when working on theirs, especially in the nose area). Protective films and metal machining ‘grain finish’ would add visual contrast as other posters have clearly shown. Subcontractors provided parts that could be prepainted. 
 

I’m away from my reference material or would have posted further pictures but photos exist of a 262 with unpainted wings on the post-war scrap heap at Brunnthal, South of Munich as well as the much-photographed unpainted 262 dumped underneath the Hungarian 109 ‘Yellow 12’ 

 

HTH

 

SD

[warhawk]

On 6/8/2022 at 2:45 AM, Icedtea said:

It might be from the direction of the original sheet from which the fuselage panels were cut. I've seen it on other materials...When the sheet is 'up' the colour has a certain tone or shade then when the sheet is rotated 180 degrees the sheet takes on a different tone. So when marking out the panels on a large sheet of aluminium the panels may be marked out in different directions to waste less material. The assembled panels then reflect in different tones when assembled together. Hope this makes some sense.

 

I understand what You are talking about, however this sheet 'grain' direction seems not to be the case here. Please take a look at the darker panel areas immediately adjacent to the vertical putty lines.

It was sanded down to a lighter shade, which I don't thik would happen if there wasn't a layer of 'something' on top of metal...

 

On 6/2/2022 at 8:22 AM, Kov1985 said:

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by warhawk

[Kov1985]

46 minutes ago, warhawk said:

 

I understand what You are talking about, however this sheet 'grain' direction seems not to be the case here. Please take a look at the darker panel areas immediately adjacent to the vertical putty lines.

It was sanded down to a lighter shade, which I don't thik would happen if there wasn't a layer of 'something' on top of metal...

 

 

I’d have to agree with this. That’s clearly a protective coating or something on the panel itself.

[Icedtea]

On 6/9/2022 at 5:46 PM, Kov1985 said:

I’d have to agree with this. That’s clearly a protective coating or something on the panel itself.

Yes it may well be I have pondered this myself, just a thought from reading this thread again. I have the Michael Ullman book 'Luftwaffe Colours 1935-1945' publisher Hikoki. IIRC he goes into some detail on primer and protective finishes etc as required by the RLM so a trawl through that may be useful?

[Kov1985]

Bump for my own reference

[Tomas Enerdal]

I'm just remembering that the rear fuselage skin of the Bf109 was built so that every second panel was formed such that it incorporated a kind of frame. Between these simpler panels of plain sheet were inserted. Could it be that the rear fuselage of the 262 was constructed according to the same principle? The two kinds of panels recieved different types of treatment/finish?

I don't have that kind of technical references for the 262, but it might be worth checking out.

[Mu17]

Just stumbled across this thread.  Really interesting.

No one has asked - what was used to sand the filler ????   

I imagine that sandpaper would be too rough and would scour the surface of the metal sheet, potentially weakening it. So I guess wet and dry was used but are there photo of this ?

Alternatively, did they use power sanders ?

 

I would like to suggest another possibility.

As we know, in the last year of the war, we see colour schemes and markings being simplified to reduce manhours. The build quality of the Me262 deteriorated and there was huge pressure to turn out He162's as quickly as possible,

 

The idea of a small army of workers, spending a huge number of manhours sanding filler and using literally tons of wet and dry paper, in  44 / 45 seems very unlikely to me. My guess (and it is only a guess) is that the filler was spread on fairly thin and carefully and smoothed off when wet.

 

Do we know what the filler was called ?  What colour it was ?  Hoe it was worked ?

Have there been any colour photos taken of the filler during modern restorations and did anyone look for evidence of sanding ?

Paul

 

 

 

 

[Jochen Barett]

Did anybody give this link yet?

 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/me-262-putty-color.49793/

 

I am amazed how light the color of the Spachtelmasse (putty) is, and to see the seems in at least two tones, a little darker wide seam and a lighter seem at the center.

 

 

I'd expect sawdust or chalk to be used as a filling material in some kind of binder but what do I know? The official color? RLM 99.

 

According to the book (Ullmann) earlier on, Glaspapier (sanding paper with glass as an abrasive) was used in some cases on putty applied wooden material and Stahlwolle (steel wool) on filler applied to metallic surfaces. Naturally the putty was to be applied sparingly with a Spachtel (spatula) and excess to be wiped off before it had a chance to dry.

[Jochen Barett]

And another interestin one

 

 

(found here https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235029190-148-scale-me-262/ )

 

[Jochen Barett]

And this one

 

https://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2017/11/messerschmitt-me-262-1-wnr-111711-at.html

 

including a pic titled "kodachrome" ... (amazingly neutral grey putty)

 

[Jochen Barett]

Digging up the evidence

 

"Finding T2-711: the First Me-262 at Wright Field"

 

https://insearchofhistory.com/finding-t2-711/