Best colour wash/panel liner for German Dark Yellow

[Whitewolf]

A question for all those experienced AFV builders out there, particularly German AFVs. What is the best colour to wash wheels painted in dark yellow? Grey/grime, or a dark brown for example? In my case its KT wheels on a two tone camo (Pzbt 505 - Dark Yellow & Brown). I always found varying greys did the trick on planes (+ panel lines) but as were on the ground.......

[Kingsman]

I would suggest a mid to dark brown here as that will work with the dunkelgelb and olivegrun.  Greys won't work here and will look odd. 

 

Unless you're after a dust finish in which case a dust wash might work.  But the areas which KTs operated in suggest they wouldn't be that dusty.  More likely to be a bit muddy.

 

I presume you're talking about enamel wash here, not acrylic.  Having washed your Tigger all over with your brown choice, dot on a few random dots of pale oil paint: cream, naples yellow, light grey, maybe a paler green on the green.  On the vertical-ish surfaces keep them mostly towards the top.    MiG's Oilbrushers can work for this but conventional oil paint is better long term value (as long as the tube caps don't gum up......).

 

Then use your flat, filbert or serrated brush (I like these) slightly moistened in thinners, working downwards, to pull off surplus brown wash and blend in the pale dots.  Clean the brush off in thinner and on tissue often to save putting it back on.  Do this until you get an effect you like.  More can always be added and taken off.  Flat surfaces and the wheels are a bit more problematic as there isn't a natural "fall".  Centre to rim on wheels.  Once that has all dried, use a quick drybrush with naples yellow.

 

Notwithstanding the different colour base here you should end up with something like this without too much fuss.  A bit rain-streaked and slightly faded.  Breaks up the monotone.

[Whitewolf]

Thanks for getting back to me! The scheme is Dark yellow/ Red Brown, painted in acrylics. I'm a bit wary of enamels, what do you use to remove the excess? Would it damage the acrylic paint, does the paint need sealing first? I have the Migammo enamel wash for dark yellow, but was also considering the Florey dark brown wash, its clay based and easily removed with water. I've used them before on aircraft with good effect.

[Kingsman]

This might work.

[Kingsman]

2 hours ago, Whitewolf said:

Thanks for getting back to me! The scheme is Dark yellow/ Red Brown, painted in acrylics. I'm a bit wary of enamels, what do you use to remove the excess? Would it damage the acrylic paint, does the paint need sealing first? I have the Migammo enamel wash for dark yellow, but was also considering the Florey dark brown wash, its clay based and easily removed with water. I've used them before on aircraft with good effect.

Good quality enamel thinners to remove.  Do not use White Spirit.  Abteilung's Matt Effect Thinner is good and is, as it says, matt effect.  MiG's are fine.  Others are available.  No need to be brand-specific as you often do with acrylic thinners.

 

No it will not damage the acrylic paint.  Entirely different solvent group.  Some people seal or varnish first.  I don't, and I don't have any problems.  Sealing/varnishing can give problems if you use a dark primer and want to do chipping effects, but you haven't mentioned any of that.

 

The wash for dark yellow will perhaps look odd over the rotbraun.  Don't know why I thought olivegrun....  Flory washes are OK but do need sealing afterwards as they remain water-soluble and are easily rubbed off in handling.  Water also has a lot more surface tension than enamel thinner so the effect will be quite different as it naturally forms larger droplets.  While acrylics are water-soluble when wet they are actually alcohol-based and are in theory water insoluble once dry.  So using water washing should be OK.  But if you've used decals you're putting water back on them which might loosen them and the wash might bleed under the carrier film.  So sealing first would be appropriate.

[Whitewolf]

48 minutes ago, Das Abteilung said:

Good quality enamel thinners to remove.  Do not use White Spirit.  Abteilung's Matt Effect Thinner is good and is, as it says, matt effect.  MiG's are fine.  Others are available.  No need to be brand-specific as you often do with acrylic thinners.

 

No it will not damage the acrylic paint.  Entirely different solvent group.  Some people seal or varnish first.  I don't, and I don't have any problems.  Sealing/varnishing can give problems if you use a dark primer and want to do chipping effects, but you haven't mentioned any of that.

 

The wash for dark yellow will perhaps look odd over the rotbraun.  Don't know why I thought olivegrun....  Flory washes are OK but do need sealing afterwards as they remain water-soluble and are easily rubbed off in handling.  Water also has a lot more surface tension than enamel thinner so the effect will be quite different as it naturally forms larger droplets.  While acrylics are water-soluble when wet they are actually alcohol-based and are in theory water insoluble once dry.  So using water washing should be OK.  But if you've used decals you're putting water back on them which might loosen them and the wash might bleed under the carrier film.  So sealing first would be appropriate.

Many thanks! I've ordered some of the Abteilung Matt Effect thinner. I'll give it a go with the migammo Enamel Wash/panel liner for Dark Yellow and see how i get on. Any tips for application etc woukd be appreciated.

[Kingsman]

Unlike aircraft where you are only usually interested in the panel lines - tanks don't have many of these - it's a bit like the old Brut 33 TV ad.  Splash it on all over........  Tanks tend to get a bit grimier and worn than aircraft.  So apply it all over the model using a reasonably wide flat brush.  Don't worry about brushmarks.  Those can be A Good Thing and in any case can be eliminated by what comes next.  It will naturally settle around details and in recesses.  Add more around these if you want.

 

When it has dried you can start the next part.  For which you will need a flat brush, a filbert (flat with rounded end) or serrated brush.  Or all 3.....  MIG makes serrated brushes but you can make your own by snipping a flat brush with scissors.  It doesn't need to be neat: in many ways it's best it isn't for this.  Old brushes can work well here.  Pour a little thinners into a well palette or small pot.  It will get contaminated and you can always add more rather than waste it unnecessarily.  Lightly dip the brush in and wipe off excess on tissue.  You just want it damp, not wet.  Then lightly drag it downwards to gently remove the excess.  Clean the brush in the thinners and wipe on tissue regularly, then carry on.  You will get a streaked effect., which you want to break up the flat colour and look like rain streaked dirt.  How much of this you want is down to you.  Probably less on a paler colour than on darker.  If you take too much off you can put more on and go again.

[Whitewolf]

Many thanks for your kind advice, greatly appreciated! Do you recommend thinning the wash out of the jar, or use as it comes? My Tiger is also wearing zimmerit, wash will give it a little depth, but need not to over do it......

Edited May 31, 2022 by Whitewolf

[Whitewolf]

11 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

This might work.

Is this for aircraft as opposed to armour?

[Kingsman]

5 hours ago, Whitewolf said:

Do you recommend thinning the wash out of the jar, or use as it comes?

I would try it out somewhere inconspicuous first, like underneath, to see what it dries like.  As you have Zimmerit a bit of thinning might be in order.  You can always go over it again.  You want a bit of depth to the ridges but not hugely dark.  And getting it out of the ridges will be harder than a flat surface.

 

4 hours ago, Whitewolf said:

Is this for aircraft as opposed to armour?

I imagine it's for whatever you want to use it for.  It is perhaps a mistake to think of products in terms of only being for one particular genre.  It is just another form of wash.

 

[Whitewolf]

1 hour ago, Das Abteilung said:

I would try it out somewhere inconspicuous first, like underneath, to see what it dries like.  As you have Zimmerit a bit of thinning might be in order.  You can always go over it again.  You want a bit of depth to the ridges but not hugely dark.  And getting it out of the ridges will be harder than a flat surface.

 

I imagine it's for whatever you want to use it for.  It is perhaps a mistake to think of products in terms of only being for one particular genre.  It is just another form of wash.

 

Ok, thanks. Panel liner and wash seem to very similar, if not almost the same, except one is for highlighting in depth lines, the other for an all over effect that also goes into the panel lines. .......can I use the AK panel liner as an overall wash? Or would you recommend an alternative. My Tiger is 1/16 scale... 

[Kingsman]

42 minutes ago, Whitewolf said:

can I use the AK panel liner as an overall wash? Or would you recommend an alternative. My Tiger is 1/16 scale... 

On something that size probably better used as a pin wash around details.  Try it on an inconspicuous part first, see what it comes out like.  You'll need a lot of wash for something that big.  MiG's normal washes come in much larger bottles and might be better value.

[Kelscale]

The easiest materials to create washes with would be either enamel or oils. Neither will damage your acrylic paint. As for creating a wash on wheels with a Dunkelgelb or Tri tonal camo, it really depends on how far you plan to take any further weathering. If you are going to cover them in mud it would not be worth creating a wash until perhaps the mud material has dried.  As for colours, any browns, grey or blacks would do. Depends on how much of a contrast and how much you want the details to 'pop'

 

Keep in mind that any type of 'pin' wash works best on a satin/glossy surface. It is far harder for capillary action to work over a matt surface. Clean up is also far more demanding as it tends to spider out and contaminate the base coat.

 

As for cleaning up, it’s a good idea to get into the habit of being as neat as possible with the wash application from the get-go. AK, Abteilung & MIG all make good thinners so all work well with pre-made enamel washes.  I think most would agree it is easiest to work in small areas and clean up as you go, but it is still possible to tidy up any wash overspill after 24hrs.

 

Personally, it depends on what overall finish I am training to obtain when it comes to choosing pin washes over a Dunkelgelb base coat.  Browns always look good and the pre-made wash made for DAK vehicles is another slightly darker wash that works well. I have achieved good results with many of the premade MIG washes but these days I do tend to mix my own oil-coloured washes. This way I can vary the wash colours depending on what part of the vehicle they are applied.  They also have the bonus of being able to be 'blended out' creating some nice colour transitions.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Kelscale

[Whitewolf]

On 31/05/2022 at 22:16, Kelscale said:

The easiest materials to create washes with would be either enamel or oils. Neither will damage your acrylic paint. As for creating a wash on wheels with a Dunkelgelb or Tri tonal camo, it really depends on how far you plan to take any further weathering. If you are going to cover them in mud it would not be worth creating a wash until perhaps the mud material has dried.  As for colours, any browns, grey or blacks would do. Depends on how much of a contrast and how much you want the details to 'pop'

 

Keep in mind that any type of 'pin' wash works best on a satin/glossy surface. It is far harder for capillary action to work over a matt surface. Clean up is also far more demanding as it tends to spider out and contaminate the base coat.

 

As for cleaning up, it’s a good idea to get into the habit of being as neat as possible with the wash application from the get-go. AK, Abteilung & MIG all make good thinners so all work well with pre-made enamel washes.  I think most would agree it is easiest to work in small areas and clean up as you go, but it is still possible to tidy up any wash overspill after 24hrs.

 

Personally, it depends on what overall finish I am training to obtain when it comes to choosing pin washes over a Dunkelgelb base coat.  Browns always look good and the pre-made wash made for DAK vehicles is another slightly darker wash that works well. I have achieved good results with many of the premade MIG washes but these days I do tend to mix my own oil-coloured washes. This way I can vary the wash colours depending on what part of the vehicle they are applied.  They also have the bonus of being able to be 'blended out' creating some nice colour transitions.

It's the Tamiya R/C Model so I won't be dirtyjng it up too as its a runner as it were. Just trying to get a decent paint finish on it. The AK wash recommended above seems like a good idea.... I might need a few bottles but it'll be worth it for a good end result!

[Longbow]

I use washes of Burnt Umber oil paint, thinned to varying degrees with white spirits...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Whitewolf]

I recently saw a Tiger 1 in dark yellow/red brown scheme weathered using a grey pin wash/wash as opposed to brown and it actually looked pretty good!