Airbrushed Tamiya Flat Black - Still tacky after 4 days ……

[Vapouriser]

As the title states, I had my first attempt at black basing a 1/48 Tamiya  F15 at the weekend. Thinned to about 30/60/5/5 with Paint/X20A/Liquitex flow aid/Tamiya retarder 

Preshaded the underside, that seems fine. Black based the top in several passes to simulate black variations but it’s still a little sticky now. Does anyone any thoughts on what I might have done wrong? And will I be ok to paint over or will it somehow bite me in the proverbial …….

 

(be gentle I’m new to the forum and a total a/b n00b  !!!! - I used a sparmax SP20X .2mm as I was fine lining first and then had plenty of paint still in the cup, so just started black basing from there, perhaps I should have moved to a bigger needle ? ) 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Im not familiar with Liquitex other than what Ive heard. I think and admit I can be wrong here. However Im thinking the liquitex/Tamiya paint retarder may be reacting or causing it to stay tacky. Have you tried putting it in a warm dry place, that may help it dry out. 

[Ngantek]

I believe x20a contains retarder as well, so it's probably not necessary to add more. I'd be surprised if that's the issue, although 5 sounds more than enough. Flow aid I suspect also contains some retarder, so it's possible, combined with the relatively high thinner fraction, that the mix is so heavily retarded that it won't cure. 

 

I guess the question I would ask is 'is there a particular reason you're using this mix'? X20a is formulated to thin and retard tamiya acrylics for airbrushing, so it seems unnecessary to add extra things that might muddy the waters unless there is a compelling reason. 

 

Of course if this is a mix you've been successfully using for years then... ignore me, I got nothing. 😀

[Vapouriser]

27 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Im not familiar with Liquitex other than what Ive heard. I think and admit I can be wrong here. However Im thinking the liquitex/Tamiya paint retarder may be reacting or causing it to stay tacky. Have you tried putting it in a warm dry place, that may help it dry out.

 

Thanks Corsair - I will try putting it in the airing cupboard. I was recommended to use this kind of combination to avoid tip dry and get a good finish etc. up to now I’ve had no issues painting components - ordinance, wheels, landing gear, cockpit etc etc. This is the first big area I’ve taken on and maybe I overworked the 0.2 needle or added a little too much flow or slow (as I was experimenting with fine lining for the first time before black basing) Maybe just tried one too many new techniques in a row ……
 

 

7 hours ago, Hook said:

 

[Vapouriser]

5 minutes ago, Ngantek said:

I believe x20a contains retarder as well, so it's probably not necessary to add more. I'd be surprised if that's the issue, although 5 sounds more than enough. Flow aid I suspect also contains some retarder, so it's possible, combined with the relatively high thinner fraction, that the mix is so heavily retarded that it won't cure. 

 

I guess the question I would ask is 'is there a particular reason you're using this mix'? X20a is formulated to thin and retard tamiya acrylics for airbrushing, so it seems unnecessary to add extra things that might muddy the waters unless there is a compelling reason. 

 

Of course if this is a mix you've been successfully using for years then... ignore me, I got nothing. 😀

Thank you Ngantek  

 

Definitely not going to ignore you - I’m VERY green

 

I have had good success on small (if you call drop tanks on a 1/48 F15 small 😂)

with this mix. But I think I may have added some more flow and slow to try and enhance my fine lining efforts so it may have ended up more like 20/60/10/10

Do you think the finish will ever cure ? And if it doesn’t Can I paint over it ? 

 

- perhaps next time I’ll try with just Flow and no slow !!

 

[Ngantek]

You could try the airing cupboard, but if it remains tacky I'd be tempted to rub it off with IPA and start again. It's just primer in different shades so far right?

 

With flow improver and retarder, I'd be more of the approach that it's easier to start with the simplest approach possible (many people thin tamiyas with ipa which has none of either) and then think about those things if you run into problems like tip dry or uneven finish. The more variables you add, the harder it is to diagnose what is going wrong. Basically if it ain't broke, don't try and fix it. You're using a very heavily thinned mixture already, meaning you'll prolly be spraying at lowish pressure, which will help to alleviate tip dry anyway.

 

I'm also relatively green, but tip dry and tamiya acrylics is not an issue I've had at all really, and not seen much complaint about online, so unless you live somewhere particularly dry and hot, I'd suspect x20a alone will be perfectly adequate. 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

22 minutes ago, Vapouriser said:

Thanks Corsair - I will try putting it in the airing cupboard. I was recommended to use this kind of combination to avoid tip dry and get a good finish etc. up to now I’ve had no issues painting components - ordinance, wheels, landing gear, cockpit etc etc. This is the first big area I’ve taken on and maybe I overworked the 0.2 needle or added a little too much flow or slow (as I was experimenting with fine lining for the first time before black basing) Maybe just tried one too many new techniques in a row ……

I have an Iwata .20 HP-B+ that is my primary A/B along with two other Iwata’s. I usually mix my Tamiya acrylics (X/XF) and lacquer’s (L series). I use both X20a and Tamiya yellow cap lacquer thinner. Most of my paint will usually cure within an hour as I can usually mask it fairly quickly. With standard acrylics like Vallejo or Ammo by mig I need to clear between colors because of poor adhesion qualities. My mixes for Tamiya usually run 66/34 or 2/3rds paint to thinner on the X/XF types. And an even 50% thinner to 100% paint on the lacquers. If you switch or ever use Gunze Mr.color though up your pressure and thin it 1/1 mix of paint to thinner. If you don't you will have some interesting language to express your feelings. 

[Vapouriser]

8 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

I have an Iwata .20 HP-B+ that is my primary A/B along with two other Iwata’s. I usually mix my Tamiya acrylics (X/XF) and lacquer’s (L series). I use both X20a and Tamiya yellow cap lacquer thinner. Most of my paint will usually cure within an hour as I can usually mask it fairly quickly. With standard acrylics like Vallejo or Ammo by mig I need to clear between colors because of poor adhesion qualities. My mixes for Tamiya usually run 66/34 or 2/3rds paint to thinner on the X/XF types. And an even 50% thinner to 100% paint on the lacquers. If you switch or ever use Gunze Mr.color though up your pressure and thin it 1/1 mix of paint to thinner. If you don't you will have some interesting language to express your feelings. 

Thanks again Corsair.
 

i have a few jars of a Gunze Aqueos, which seems to play nicely with X20A or Mr levelling thinner (although dont shoot with the latter often as I am spraying in the living room most of the time)

 

interesting you use a .20 for most of your work though. I have a badger 150 that was given to me and an Iwata Eclipse Gravity .35 both of which I spray at around 10 - 12 psi with Tamiya and Gunze. Not sure if this is right, but it seems to work well (aside fro this last venture that is……)

 

The more I think about it the more I think I might have gone a little crazy with the slow in an effort to achieve nice fine pre shade  panel lines (I was getting fine lines but very stippled) 

 

[dogsbody]

So far, in my very brief use of my Badger 150 IL airbrush, the only Tamiya I have sprayed is XF-16 Flat Aluminum. 

It was thinned with X-20A At about 45% paint to 55% thinner with a few drops of Tamiya Retarded added. 

Sprayed great and dried quite quickly. I let it sit for about an hour before I touched it and it was fully dried.

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

2 minutes ago, Vapouriser said:

Thanks again Corsair.
 

i have a few jars of a Gunze Aqueos, which seems to play nicely with X20A or Mr levelling thinner (although dont shoot with the latter often as I am spraying in the living room most of the time)

 

interesting you use a .20 for most of your work though. I have a badger 150 that was given to me and an Iwata Eclipse Gravity .35 both of which I spray at around 10 - 12 psi with Tamiya and Gunze. Not sure if this is right, but it seems to work well (aside fro this last venture that is……)

 

The more I think about it the more I think I might have gone a little crazy with the slow in an effort to achieve nice fine pre shade  panel lines (I was getting fine lines but very stippled) 

 

I love .20 as its almost removed the need for masking patterns. The other brushes are a .35 neo I use for larger areas/kits and my .50 HP-BCS which can handle up to 2oz of paint and is really only good for professional use on cars, motorcycles, guitars, etc. I guess if I was going to paint a 1/24 mosquito or Typhoon it would be good so I don't have to constantly refill the jar. The pressures of 10-12 is the same I use for Tamiya paints I do up it a little 12-14 for the lacquers. For the Mr.Color I go to roughly 20psi. By the way just to give you a bit of history Ive had 6 air brushes since 1988. All but one were Double action brushes. The Tamiya single action actually worked surprisingly well for a battery powered single action. The other two were a Paasche my first and a Badger was my 3rd. 

[Casey]

Did you remember to dilute concentrated flow aid from Liquitex? It is designed to be diluted first with ratio of 1:20 with distilled water, then added to the medium/pigments.

 

This stuff IS very strong. It is even written by the vendor to never use it undiluted because it ends up with full list of problems (https://www.liquitex.com/row/products/professional/gessoes-mediums-varnishes/flow-aid-additive/), tackiness being one of them.

 

It is very possible that you've added way too much retarder - X20A contains some already, undiluted Liquitex flow aid is a very concentrated one, and you added one more dose from Tamiya...

 

Mixing Liquitex and Tamiya may also be also not the best idea - Liquitex product use water as a solvent, while Tamiya uses alcohol. Some weird magic can happen!
 

[Vapouriser]

7 hours ago, Casey said:

Did you remember to dilute concentrated flow aid from Liquitex? It is designed to be diluted first with ratio of 1:20 with distilled water, then added to the medium/pigments.

 

This stuff IS very strong. It is even written by the vendor to never use it undiluted because it ends up with full list of problems (https://www.liquitex.com/row/products/professional/gessoes-mediums-varnishes/flow-aid-additive/), tackiness being one of them.

 

It is very possible that you've added way too much retarder - X20A contains some already, undiluted Liquitex flow aid is a very concentrated one, and you added one more dose from Tamiya...

 

Mixing Liquitex and Tamiya may also be also not the best idea - Liquitex product use water as a solvent, while Tamiya uses alcohol. Some weird magic can happen!
 

Ahhhh - my suspicions may well have been right …….

I love a podcast and have recently been listening to alot of the ‘Plastic Model Mojo’ production. They have a guest speaker who goes under the joke moniker of Dr Strangbrush and seems incredibly knowledgeable on all things Airbrush. He recommended the Liquitex addition so perhaps I misheard that it needs to be diluted first ……

 

[Vapouriser]

10 hours ago, Casey said:

Did you remember to dilute concentrated flow aid from Liquitex? It is designed to be diluted first with ratio of 1:20 with distilled water, then added to the medium/pigments.

 

This stuff IS very strong. It is even written by the vendor to never use it undiluted because it ends up with full list of problems (https://www.liquitex.com/row/products/professional/gessoes-mediums-varnishes/flow-aid-additive/)

 

Err - I just looked at my bottle and sure enough Casey - it says very clearly that it needs to be heavily diluted ….

 

sounds like a classic case of RTFM 😑 

 

Do you think I can paint over this tacky finish, or do I need to strip it off 😬 

 

[Vapouriser]

12 hours ago, Ngantek said:

You could try the airing cupboard, but if it remains tacky I'd be tempted to rub it off with IPA and start again. It's just primer in different shades so far right?

 

With flow improver and retarder, I'd be more of the approach that it's easier to start with the simplest approach possible (many people thin tamiyas with ipa which has none of either) and then think about those things if you run into problems like tip dry or uneven finish. The more variables you add, the harder it is to diagnose what is going wrong. Basically if it ain't broke, don't try and fix it. You're using a very heavily thinned mixture already, meaning you'll prolly be spraying at lowish pressure, which will help to alleviate tip dry anyway.

 

I'm also relatively green, but tip dry and tamiya acrylics is not an issue I've had at all really, and not seen much complaint about online, so unless you live somewhere particularly dry and hot, I'd suspect x20a alone will be perfectly adequate. 

Just seen this reply - thank you 🙏 

 

I am spraying heavily thinned and at around 10-12 psi 

And sounds like I def need to drop the Tamiya retarder and massively reduce the flow aid concentration ……

 

it’s funny how I’ve had no issues with the small parts on the larger area - but I am sure there is a logical reason to that too !!

 

The only other time I had issues was spraying a bunch of AIM 120’s in gloss white. Got lots of running and spidering - possibly also a by product of the overly heavy slow and flow additions ?