HMSV Beagle - OcCre - 1/60

[Bertie McBoatface]

1 hour ago, Ray S said:

Bertie, the explanation made sense to me, and it adds to the store of 'things to look out for' when my time arrives.

 

2 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

Yes, please keep going. 

 

11 hours ago, Courageous said:

Keep up the good work.

 

Thanks for the encouragement everyone. I have no intention of stopping. 😠 (determined face)

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

28 minutes ago, Bertie McBoatface said:

 

That makes sense, though I'd expect a bevel for that purpose not to go all the way through to the frames. 

 

 

That's right, they'd bevel one edge at least, sometimes both (but it can be easier to just leave one edge square and do all the bevelling on the other plank and then plane a chamfer about half-way through for the caulking thus. It's common that, on wide planks at least, they'd "back out" the inside face to fit the frame properly, but I don't think anyone will think less of you as a modeller for omitting this step

 

[Bertie McBoatface]

1 hour ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

That's right, they'd bevel one edge at least, sometimes both (but it can be easier to just leave one edge square and do all the bevelling on the other plank and then plane a chamfer about half-way through for the caulking thus. It's common that, on wide planks at least, they'd "back out" the inside face to fit the frame properly, but I don't think anyone will think less of you as a modeller for omitting this step

 

Ah. That’s how I imagined it.
 

I’m bevelling only one side of the edge joins and relying on the sanding to finish the job. Halves the chances of me making a mistake. 😁

[ColonelKrypton]

3 hours ago, Bertie McBoatface said:

The OcCre planks scale out to about a foot wide, which I think is reasonable but they are a scale FIVE INCHES THICK.

 

That is an interesting comment. 

 

Through your builds I have wondered what the real dimensions of the timber would be that was used in the construction of these sailing vessels.

 

Having no references on hand I used Google to search - got lots of hits but sorting through all that chaff to find the nuggets took some doing. Simple answer to my query as you already know was that the dimensions varied greatly stem to stern, keel to gunwales.

 

I think would be nearly impossible to duplicate such variation in the build of these miniature vessels although I am sure many of the more advanced builders likely do, to a point.

 

In my searches I stumbled across a hitherto unknown web site and Nautical Research Society. It's publications ( The Northern Mariner and Argonauta ) or at least large parts of them are freely available

 

https://www.cnrs-scrn.org/admin/index_e.html

 

A few articles that you may find interesting ( I did ),

 

https://www.cnrs-scrn.org/northern_mariner/vol03/tnm_3_1_1-43.pdf  THE STRUCTURES OF ENGLISH WOODEN SHIPS: WILLIAM SUTHERLAND'S SHIP, CIRCA 1710

 

https://www.cnrs-scrn.org/northern_mariner/vol03/tnm_3_4_37-47.pdf  THE 1834 CRUISE OF HMS ALLIGATOR: THE BIBLE AND THE FLAG

 

https://www.cnrs-scrn.org/northern_mariner/vol13/tnm_13_4_29-39.pdf  The Capability of Sailing Warships Part 1: Windward Performance

 

Not that you don't already have enough reading material already

 

Fascinating subject.

 

I don't think I will build a model of one of these sailing vessels but your builds and Jon's ( @Faraway ) and others has rekindled an interest in nautical subjects - never say never.

 

cheers, Graham

 

 

[Bertie McBoatface]

7 minutes ago, ColonelKrypton said:

Not that you don't already have enough reading material already

 

I have a personality disorder which compels me to buy books, and I wouldn't change it for the world even when, as now, a new interest has caused me to accumulate a pile of maritime books that's taller than I am. I'll catch up in a few years. 📚

 

And thanks for the references. The Research Society publications look very interesting. I could only spare them a glance today though. 

 

 

[Faraway]

1 hour ago, Bertie McBoatface said:

I have a personality disorder

I reckon I’ve got one of those, it compels me to buy ship models.

[Bertie McBoatface]

23 minutes ago, Faraway said:

I reckon I’ve got one of those, it compels me to buy ship models.

 

Oh yeah, I've got that one too.

 

I'm really itching to start another one but I'm trying to wait until this hull is finished.

[Bertie McBoatface]

I've mounted another trio of planks today, including a stealer, or dropped plank should you prefer the more modern terminology. It took almost four hours not including glue drying time and is my fifth attempt. I seem to have taken a zillion pictures today so this will be a picture heavy post or two. I may do two or more because I get nervous with really long posts that havent been saved/posted

 

 

First, I think I have discovered a better way to mark up a plank for tapering. The photo shows the method and as you'll appreciate, I end up with a curved line to file to that blends smoothly with the untapered plank. Most planking tutorials tell you to mark the taper with a straight edge and if it's thin enough, to cut it that way too. The trouble is that boats are curved and a straight-line taper with an angle in it, however obtuse the angle, doesn't fit as well as a curve. This will be difficult to do with thinner planks so it may be generally useless but it might help someone out there.

 

 

Once the tapering for the extreme bow was done, I turned to the bevelling. I marked a cut line or guide line, so that I could see how much I'd removed.

 

 

The stolen plank would be bevelled both sides so it needed two guide lines. I drew them in using a finger as a gauge as you see. There's no need for it to be any more complicated.

 

I bevelled the top of the top plank where it would butt against the square side of the previously laid one. Then both sides of the middle one for symmetry. The bottom one was unbevelled as it will butt against the middle one's bevel. Three planks, three bevels.

 

 

For making a bevelling cut down the whole length of the wood, I held it in my home made plank vice. It's hard to make it out so the blue arrow is the plank.

 

 

I pencilled lines on the top edge to show me when my cut had crossed the whole of the edge.

 

 

My weapon of choice is a David plane.

 

 

Which produced a full length shaving almost every time.

 

 

See the bevel creeping across the edge of the plank?

 

 

Finished. Yes, i know it's not straight but it's only 2mm across so the rounded edge won't really be noticeable.

 

 

And the already tapered centre one gets a bevel on both sides.

 

 

The planks now lie nicely together - no gaps.

 

 

For variety, because this was getting boring, I tried a different saw and got a better result from this Hasegawa Tritool saw.

 

 

Having filed away the waste, I'm left with shaggy corners and this I sand away with fine paper. It really makes a difference to the tightness of the joint, I've noticed.

 

 

I tried to show you how the joint went together with a curve across the width now it was bevelled but it was tricky to hold it long enough to photograph. While taking this I realised that the centre plank has all the bevelling between the two outer ones. Forward of the steal there's none at all. So I went back to the bench vice and cut some on both pieces.

 

Ready for glue then...

[Dmitriy1967]

It's not enough to do, it's also important to be able to take pictures! You've got both!

👍

[Bertie McBoatface]

 

Before starting the gluing up, I put away all the tools I'd used for the cutting. With the desk clear, I wouldn't be hunting for 'that particular clamp' among the files, plane, sandpaper, breakfast plates etc. Also, there were now fewer things to catch on, and bust the end of the planks when I was turning the boat over. 

 

 

That's the trio laid out flat. You can see how it will form a three dimensional joint when assembled.

 

 

Just in time I realised I hadn't tapered the bow ends of the outer planks so once again, back to the vice for some planing this time. I marked the line with the curve method I described above.

 

Those planks were rather cunningly spiled by this point but they were still flat. Unfortunately I forgot to photograph them being bent but I think I must have shown you that already so...

 

 

I loaded my high-tech glue dispenser and was ready to go. (Send me £10 plus postage for your own glue dispenser by return of post.)*

 

 

I knew there would be trouble at frame number three. Most of the planks barely touch it and some miss it completely. I prepared some shims, just in case because that was the frame where the stealer joint would be located, of course.😠

 

 

And I used them. Look at the ziggurat steps of this planking. That's supposed to sand into a smoooth curve when this is all over. I will probably glue some thin strips into the corners where I see a danger of sanding it into pieces again. I did that on the stbd side - you can see it if you look closely.

 

 

That's what it looks like in cross section. The grey pencil line is supposedly the finished line of the hull and you can see the dangers of over sanding. 

 

 

Some of the plywood frames are beginning to split from the pins. This weakens them lower down and they split again. I've tried to reinforce them with thin CA and it seems to work.

 

 

That's what it looked like when first glued. Yuk! Sanding and sealing the surface once it was dry only took a few minutes and gives a better impression of the result.

 

 

This was yesterday's attempt, without bevelling and with wide glue lines.

 

 

And today's somewhat tighter version. There's still room for improvement but this is good enough for me to cease and desist making official British joints and crack on with the rest of the hull in a simpler way. I'll still need a couple of stealers but I'll make than straightforward triangles. I declare that I've passed (scraped through) my stealer examination.

 

7/10 could do better! 👨‍🏫

 

I'm well below the waterline now so it won't be seen anyway and I'm getting dangerously bored and don't want to drive myself away from the build. I hope to have the hull closed up by close of play on Wednesday (so that I can show it to my son when he visits me on Thursday).

 

 

 

 

90:15

 

 

 

* Just a joke Mike.

[Bertie McBoatface]

24 minutes ago, Dmitriy1967 said:

It's not enough to do, it's also important to be able to take pictures! You've got both!

👍

 

I've got a very clever camera that does almost all of it for me. I'd post a photo of it but... Well, you know. 😄

[Ray S]

Bertie, can you please remind me what type of glue you are using for this section of your ship? I have seen PVA and Contact Adhesive being used, and was thinking that PVA is probably the better way to go as it gives a little more 'wriggle' time and excess can be wiped off with a damp cloth.

 

Cheers,

 

Ray

 

PS I think you may have mentioned it earlier in the build (or your previous one), if so, I apologise!

[Bertie McBoatface]

No problem Ray, I can't find things in this thread so I can't really expect anyone else to.

 

Don't use contact adhesive to plank a hull. It grabs too fast but isn't strong enough when the contact area is the thin edge of the plank and the tiny lines of the frames. 

 

Don't use PVA either. It's too slow to grab and far to weak for the application.

 

Some folks swear by CA for this job. I don't advise it because I think you have to use too much of it and you run into health hazards. I also don't think it will stay bonded for decades and I'm kinda trying to make heirlooms here.

 

The answer to the question is...

 

 

Wood glue. It looks like PVA but there are resins in there that make it a lot stronger. PVA is for paper, cardboard, etc. For wood, use wood glue. This Evostick bottle is my new supply so I'm not recommending this brand in particular as I haven't tried it yet. I've been using up something similar that I've had for years. I used to use it for gluing canopies down on aircraft. I threw the bottle away at the weekend after decanting the last of it into my small squeezy bottle.

 

You have a few minutes of working time to get it held in place with some sort of clamping method. It needs to be held in place for ten or twenty minutes and then you can work around it carefully, if you avoid pulling it too much. They say that the joint takes 24 hours to get to max strength but I think it's faster than that in our use because the quantities used are so small that the water (solvent) evaporates really fast and then the resins start to do their stuff early.

 

I'm only now discovering that the less glue I use the faster the cure and the stronger the joint. There's a sweet spot between using too much and having a slow curing sloppy mess, and not using enough and making a weak, dry joint. As with everything else, practice on scrap wood. 

 

Interior wood glue can be debonded with water if necessary, I assume exterior cannot. I haven't used exterior in this hobby.

 

Another wood glue is the aliphatic resin kind. That's super strong for making chairs and staircases etc. I don't have any experience of it but don't think we need that much strength.

 

[Bertie McBoatface]

 

Today I accelerated my progress by resorting to the OcCre planking system. Basically you fill up s much as possible with straight planks.

 

 

And then fill in the spaces with triangles and other shapes cut to fit. Then the 2mm of wood allows a generous margin for sanding.

 

It's very easy that way and I perhaps should have simply followed the instructions (hahahaa!). I've learned a lot more about planking by doing it my way including the fact that 2mm planks seem to be impossible to lay 'properly' in the way that the original ships hull was constructed. No matter, I can bodge and fill as well as anyone!

 

 

In fact, the bodging part os well advanced already. 😄

 

 

And just as I was about to write this I found the knee of the head - missing! I don't know how that happened but I found the missing part and glued it back on. well, most of it anyway.

 

What a day!

 

94.50

[Bertie McBoatface]

I’m guessing that all this planking stuff is becoming a bit of a bore to readers as well as to me so I’ll wait until it’s all done before updating the thread again. 

[Ray S]

Bertie, thanks for the glue explanation, especially the 'less-is-best' bit. In my collection of 'stuff' that is winging its way to me is 15 1-meter planks of 1x6mm limewood, so that should give me some practice material. It is mainly for use with the lifeboat as the supplied wood is 1.5mm and other builders have suggested it is better with 1mm. Anyway, enough for practice.

 

25 minutes ago, Bertie McBoatface said:

I’m guessing that all this planking stuff is becoming a bit of a bore to readers as well as to me so I’ll wait until it’s all done before updating the thread again. 

 

You can keep planking on here as far as I am concerned, it reinforces what you have already written and shown, and that, for me any way, is a Good Thing.

 

All the best with your remaining planking,

 

Ray

[steve5]

I really like looking at the planking stage , I get shivers thinking about it , but love seeing how you guy's do it , nice work so far to bertie .

BTW love your work area mate .

Edited August 10, 2022 by steve5

[Bertie McBoatface]

6 hours ago, steve5 said:

I really like looking at the planking stage , I get shivers thinking about it , but love seeing how you guy's do it , nice work so far to bertie .

BTW love your work area mate .

I’ll show you how the OcCre system worked out for me and the beagle later today then. It will make you shiver … in horror! 😳

[Bertie McBoatface]

10 hours ago, steve5 said:

I really like looking at the planking stage

 

On 8/10/2022 at 8:15 AM, Ray S said:

You can keep planking on here as far as I am concerned, it reinforces what you have already written and shown, and that, for me any way, is a Good Thing.

 

You asked for it. Turning from historical 'accuracy', which is more wishful thinking than possibility, to practicality, I have done THIS!

 

 

 

I have blocked up the remaining holes, sometimes with two layers of planks, sometimes with the planks curved to shape as before and sometimes with them jammed in endways. The idea was to complete the shape of the underwater hull and provide a foundation for a tube of Plastic Wood. I'll sand the wood down, apply the filler, sand that down and bish bash bosh the job is done in two days instead of two weeks. I'll be painting it with thick black paint and then applying real copper sheeting so the 'lie of the planking' is irrelevant now that I've had my practice attempts at doing it properly. 

 

I nearly got carried away there for a while and was becoming despondent because I couldn't get it quite right. Then I recalled that this is a training ship for me and that these thick OcCre timbers were never intended for fine work in the first place. When I do the next model with its 1mm planking, I will find it so much easier to work with that it will be worth aiming for a higher standard (but NEVER for perfection, no Sir!).

 

Warts and all? I show you carbuncles, chancres and abscesses!

 

 

[Bertie McBoatface]

It's too pinging hot for vigorously sanding my bottom. And Plastic Wood is cellulose based so that's quite unpleasant too, even in a fume cabinet. Enough of this madness, I shall read instead.

[ColonelKrypton]

One of my early attempts at planking looked a lot like what you show in that picture - uneven gaps and filler bits sticking out here and there. Several rounds of careful sanding filling and the end result was good.  I did improve in later attempts but never became a master planker.

 

Last thing you want to do is sand you bottom during hot weather - those wee tiny grains of sand get in every nook and cranny   Out of curiosity I checked the weather for southern UK - it has been on the hot side, a lot like our weather - usually in July we will get three weeks or so 30C weather, hot and humid but not Southern US Gulf of Mexico Louisiana hot. The Dog Days of summer.

 

I did some more looking for shellac.  I did find one place which had one litre size can but at $40 ( about 26 UK pounds ) that just seemed a bit too much. I do find more reasonably priced synthetic shellac what that it is. This synthetic shellac always seemed to be tinted in some light colour, usually white and is advertised as water washup.  What kind of shellac is that? 

 

Your comment on Plastic Wood being cellulose based caught my eye.  I can't even find good old PLastic Wood - everything here it seems has become water based or latex based and just isn't the same thing not does it work the same.

 

Stay cool, HMS Beagle will wait.

 

cheers, Graham

 

[Bertie McBoatface]

On 8/11/2022 at 1:21 PM, ColonelKrypton said:

HMS Beagle will wait.

 

Beagle will have to pinging well wait!

 

I am sick and tired of the pinging Beagle. Utterly discouraged. They say you learn more from things going wrong than when you get things right. Well I wouldn't know because having done nothing quite right yet, I have no comparison. Stupid pinging thing. 

 

I didn't fancy sanding the hull today so I thought I'd build some of the deck furnishings. Idiotically, I chose one of the boats. More pinging planking! It's far too delicate to use wood glue - this has to be the dreaded CA with its habit of instantaneously and irrevocably gripping in a slightly wrong position. 

 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAghj!

 

 

[Faraway]

2 hours ago, Bertie McBoatface said:

 

Beagle will have to pinging well wait!

 

I am sick and tired of the pinging Beagle. Utterly discouraged. They say you learn more from things going wrong than when you get things right. Well I wouldn't know because having done nothing quite right yet, I have no comparison. Stupid pinging thing. 

 

I didn't fancy sanding the hull today so I thought I'd build some of the deck furnishings. Idiotically, I chose one of the boats. More pinging planking! It's far too delicate to use wood glue - this has to be the dreaded CA with its habit of instantaneously and irrevocably gripping in a slightly wrong position. 

 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAghj!

 

 

The time has come to walk away, young Bertie, walk away.
Do something else for a day or two. 

Jon

[ColonelKrypton]

24 minutes ago, Faraway said:

The time has come to walk away, young Bertie, walk away.
Do something else for a day or two. 

 

Indeed.

 

cheers, Graham

 

[Bertie McBoatface]

59 minutes ago, ColonelKrypton said:

 

Indeed.

 

cheers, Graham

 

 

1 hour ago, Faraway said:

The time has come to walk away, young Bertie, walk away.
Do something else for a day or two. 

Jon

Message received my friends. Wilco!

 

Partly it’s the heat. Partly life’s ups and downs. I shall return. 🙂