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R25 class Räumboot - building finally


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3 hours ago, Jochen Barett said:

I agree, there is a good chance we see a "Sprengboje D".

Thanks Jochen, it is the right size from what I can see.  Below one added to the drawing and a photo, looks right to me

 

explosive buoy2 r29aedit

 

Not sure what else they could be..

 

I wonder what colour they were. any idea?

 

Cheers

 

Steve

Edited by Steve D
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6 hours ago, Steve D said:

+++

I wonder what colour they were. any idea?

+++

No good deed goes unpunished.

 

Maybe dark iron (or "brownish tire black" like modern German submarines RAL 8019) from the start  https://www.flickr.com/photos/dirk_bruin_vlieland/2078051982 Demolition Sprengboje D

 

In case it isn't a lot of Sprengbojen it might be Reißbojen, Sprengbojen (blast buoys) designed to cut the sweeping gear with a blast, Reißbojen (ripping buoys) desing to rip/cut the sweeping gear.

 

https://www.39-45.org/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=50179&start=10

 

esp.: https://www.39-45.org/files3945c/11434_S-boote (3).jpg

11434_S-boote%20(3).jpg

 

I bet as soon as we see your "ready for insepction" thread, I will find some official documents on the color (and naturally it will be a different color). 😁

 

Maybe it was blueish black (tar black), it looks a bit like remains of blueish black over rust in daylight when found 75 years later:

https://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/104233/5127554

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dirk_bruin_vlieland/13664177145/

 

 

This pic

52135186137_bce396fb72_b.jpg

 

shows sweeping gear rather than mine laying gear, so maybe those encircled thingies are dan buoys to mark a swept passage (but this is total guesswork!).

Edited by Jochen Barett
typo
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15 hours ago, Jochen Barett said:

No good deed goes unpunished.

:rofl:

 

I agree those are not explosive buoys, too small and why place them on the engine room casing roof?  They probably are danbuoys but I don't have any information on Kriegsmarine danbuoys.

 

I have this image which I'm guessing shows danbuoys

 

ops1

 

But looking at this image makes it more puzzling still

 

buoys

 

These things seem to be hooked on to the upper rail, perhaps the danbuoys came in a packed from with the rods separate for ease of handling and were assembled before use.  They are very ungainly to have stored on deck otherwise.

 

Anyone have any thoughts on this or illustrations?

 

Cheers and thanks again for the interest in my little puzzle

 

Steve

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Sorry, can't help about the buoys.  But I'm looking at the angle of the ladder down to the dingy. How would you brace such a thing? Surely the dingy tied alongside/ladder vertical would be much easier!

Tom

 

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1 hour ago, Modelholic said:

Surely the dingy tied alongside/ladder vertical would be much easier!

I guess the slope probably makes it easier to manage the different rise and fall of the dinghy vs the boat.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

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5 hours ago, Steve D said:

+++

I have this image which I'm guessing shows danbuoys

 

ops1

 

But looking at this image makes it more puzzling still

 

buoys

 

These things seem to be hooked on to the upper rail, perhaps the danbuoys came in a packed from with the rods separate for ease of handling and were assembled before use.  They are very ungainly to have stored on deck otherwise.

 

Anyone have any thoughts on this or illustrations?

+++

 

Those are two different kinds of things (my thought).

 

As usual, German craft will have sported different sets of equipment for different missions, so maybe you better build three Räumboote (one with Voith-Schneider Propeller just for the heck of it!), for three missions and locations (Baltic, Channel / off the Dutch coast, Mediterranean / Black Sea) and you can build mines, depth charges, dan buoys, Reißbojen, Sprengbojen, mine sweeping gear (Ottergerät https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Räumotter and Scherdrachengerät), smoke pots, 2cm AA, 3,7cm AA, "Dutch" machine guns (with flat drum on top), MG 34 (with drums to the sides), and so on.

- Mine laying

- Mine sweeping

- Sub-hunting

- General escort (Ooops, fourth one, maybe just like sub-hunting)

 

I'm confident some day we will find a M.Dv. (Marine Dienstvorschrift) telling us everything about the color of the dan buoys https://www.superborg.de/mdv001.htm (unfortunately just a list, not a bunch of free .pdfs). I love "M.Dv. 838 Katholisches Feldgesangbuch" (catholic hymnal for use in the field) (excuse me for getting carried away, must have been the thought of Voith Schneider Propellers, will keep Markierungsbojen etc. in mind).

Edited by Jochen Barett
typo
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39 minutes ago, Jochen Barett said:

mine sweeping gear (Ottergerät https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Räumotter and Scherdrachengerät),

It was only a question Jochen, no need to get carried away....:jump_fire:

 

I'll be modelling a minesweeper, not layer, it seems mine sweep gear information is available.. 

 

However, I want the plans to be as complete as I can make them, for others

 

sweep gear

 

 

Thanks for your help, it is really appreciated

 

Cheers

 

Steve

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1 hour ago, Steve D said:

It was only a question Jochen, no need to get carried away....:jump_fire:

+++

I'll try to "help you" anyway :laugh: 

 

(in case I can help with a translation let me know, I'm not certified but I consider my translations to be better than google-translate)

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On 30/05/2022 at 14:12, Arjan said:

Here are some pics from a Dutch photo archive, boats from various different batches.

 

vzXecL0.png

 

+++

 

 

Let me try to keep up the level of confusion. There are four kinds of dan buoys on this one:

2 ball, triangle pointing up

6 bottle pointing up

6 bottle pointing down

2 triangle pointing down, ball

 

For a moment I was hoping the Kriegsmarine used a "similar but not the same" scheme for the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_mark

but it seems they just used "the regular" system https://www.flickr.com/photos/kaiopai/15501326556/in/photostream/ to mark an Untiefe ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shallow_(underwater_relief) )

"nördl." = nördlich = to the North of ...

"östl." = östlich = to the East of ...

"südl." = südlich = to the South of ...

"westl." = westlich = to the West of ...

"auf" = on / right on top of

 

15501326556_43ed4dffb0_b.jpg

 

 

this one seems to show "ball, ball" and "bottle pointing down"

52137671111_3f3571cc42_b.jpg

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Wow Jochen, very cool video :thumbsup:, R-23 is the earlier type but excellent background.

 

Those buoys are very confusing, but now I'm thinking the items on the engine room casing roof might actually be boat fenders rather than danbuoys.  There is insufficient height to store danbuoys there upright....  it would make sense to store the fenders out of the way on that railing

 

Cheers

 

Steve

 

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As of now I can not prove or disprove "fenders".

 

In case you get a kick out of listening to a verrry strange language (it is navy-German and it is navy-German in staged films shown by unprofessional actors (real soldiers) it's funny!) I have a few more videos to offer (two more hours of "background" on mine sweeping (gear) and "history").

They are a few years too modern, but they show you the Räumgerät in post war times and one or the other piece of equipment looks just like many years before.

 

Still black and white 1957 (you can bet some of the older men abord have some 17 years of experience in the trade)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz0fMvJB_A0

 

1968 some wearing a strange dress but look at the thing used to measure the tension on the sweeping rope at 3:17 (brass as we may see around 6:39 in the color film part a mentioned below)

https://youtu.be/i87wN7csrs0?t=197

 

even later but color added part a:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzA5QOKFo6Q

and part b (clearing mines with magnetic detonator)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRt5M_E1k-k

 

To me it is interesting to see the modularity of the sweeping gear and how the parts get connected and used.

 

The thingie to measure the tension is not seen in the late 30's video (I bet it was there but not shown to the general audience), but the Seilklemme (rope clamp) shown here

https://youtu.be/6LZFF1tf_K0?t=468

can be found again post war

https://youtu.be/rz0fMvJB_A0?t=1135

 

when doing the ropes, pay close attention, some ropes used in pairs are the same lay, some are the opposing lay

https://youtu.be/rz0fMvJB_A0?t=1293

(it is pointed out by the speaker (without explanation for the reason), I wouldn't have noticed it, but any "epert" (read: fellow britmodeller) will immediately tell you all about it as soon as you show the completed Räumboot ready for inspection)

 

OK, back to fenders.

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Thanks Jochen, I'll take a look.  

 

Regarding the lay of ropes, to my mind that comes way down the list after hulls that don't have cooling water openings, decks without any clutter, flags that stick out like cardboard and rivet heads 2 inches (sorry 50 mm ) or more across....  Don't even get me started on plastic stanchions :doh:

 

For my own models I have two rules:

  1.  They should seem realistic, ie give an impression of what the vessel might have looked like; and
  2.  The closer you look with a human eye, the model should get better by revealing stuff not noticeable from afar, 

Just to say again, I really appreciate your help and support.  The Kriegsmarine is not a subject I know anything about and I do want to make these drawings (and my own version of a build from them) as accurate as I can.  Otherwise, what is the point?

 

Cheers

 

Steve

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  • 2 weeks later...

In response to a request I posted, the German marine forum has just thrown up a link to an archive of high quality shipyard photographs covering R25 class boats.  Incredibly useful stuff, of which at least 40 photographs are applicable to my little venture, amazing...

 

However, it has sent me back to the drawing board on a number of details I'd got wrong, the venture continuers

 

Meanwhile a further sneak preview of my work in progress, hopefully to illustrate the detail work involved.

 

This is an extract from the GA sheet showing the stern deck layout with suggested locations for the minesweeping gear together with a scratch view showing the layout for mine-laying.  All equipment shown is separately drawn on an equipment sheet with multiple views.  It is soaking up hours and hours but I'm having so much fun with the project...  BTW, the mine rails are a simple lazy mirror copy, I'll amend that on the final version

 

preview2

 

When I've had time to absorb the new information, I'll post some examples of the new pictures, they are seriously cool

 

Cheers

 

Steve 

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  • 1 month later...

In case anyone was thinking I'd given this up, they couldn't be further from the truth.  I've put hours into the drawings, below is a quick update of the current state of play.  Main focus on the GA sheet (still incomplete) with a start made on the sections

 

UPDATE

 

There has been quite a bit of re-work, in particular the wardroom/galley hatch was completely wrong and many additional details added. 

 

As you can see, I'm detailing each component with separate 3-dimension views (more will go on the sections sheet) with the intention for the drawings to stand alone as containing sufficient information to build a fine-scale model (together with photographs of course).  Because I don't have full drawings to copy, each detail needs to be adjusted by reference to the (now a staggering) 120 photographs I've managed to source and copy.  This takes a lot of time and modification but hopefully the result will be pretty accurate.

 

This is becoming a labour of love, but one I'm really enjoying...  2-3 weeks more and I hope to commence the build with laser cut sections.  The fourth sheet will be a frame cutting plan that I can modify directly into a form that 4D can cut from.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

 

 

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18 hours ago, Courageous said:

Amazing work on that plan.

Thanks Stuart, I'm doing the best I can. 

 

Hopefully, if I produce a 1:72nd scale version, I can persuade some members to kit-bash an s-boat, the hulls are more or less the same

 

Cheers

 

Steve 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've been reading "Hitler's forgotten flotillas" by Lawrence Preston about the Kriegsmarine Security Forces, very complete war diary covering all theatres.  Combining this with "German Warships 1815 - 1945 Volume 2" by Erich Gröner is helping me sort out the variations of the early to mid-war types so I can decide exactly what I am drawing :book:.  That may sound strange, but everything about this voyage of discovery is odd, given I'm drawing a boat I don't actually have the plans for.

 

To narrow things down from the plethora of subtypes, I've chosen the following parameters for the drawings and my model:

  1. Traditional propellers not Voith-Schneider propulsion
  2. The roll-over of the stern (I just like that detail...)
  3. No anchor hawse pipe, anchor runs out in a deck scallop to port (ditto)
  4. Three rudders
  5. 2 off Flak 2cm/c30 deck guns, fo'c'sle gun mounted direct to the deck, not on a raised platform
  6. Bridge with large square windows

Confusingly, the class names and the vessel names over-lap, which doesn't exactly make matters easier

 

So, to summarise where I am

 

The R 21 class (built from 1936 to 1942) actually covered R21,22,23,24 and 41-43, 44- 150.  Within that range, R41 - 52 and 53-72 meet #2, 3, and 5 while R89-101 fails #5 (raised fo'c'sle platform).  However, it looks like most if not all had V-S propulsion so this fails criteria 1 & 4.  It may be that the later vessels did not have V-S propulsion, but it's not clear when wartime shortages stopped them using this complex arrangement.

 

This leaves the R25 class (see, I said it was confusing...) built from 1937 - 1943. of which there are no fewer than 7 sub-types :suicide:  Propulsion is once again not clear, but I think the R25 class vessels built during the war (from 151 onwards) had conventional propulsion.  The early R25 class (R25-40) also had a conventional hawse pipe on the starboard side so fail test #3.  So, this leaves me with R151 - 158 ticking every box.  R159 - 193 are also potentials, the difference being the flak guns had gun shield.  However, armament changed over time, so this can't be relied on.  Some vessel mounted the 3.7 cm gun later in the war.  Still, the drawing certainly complies wiht what I know about the R25 class of the number range 151 - 158.

 

Why does any of this matter? 

 

Well, firstly I'd rather build an actual vessel than just a type, ideally one I have a picture of.  I have a lot of pictures that tick all these boxes, though the vessels the pictures are attributed to doesn't appear to be fully consistent with Gröner and of course, you can't see the propellers in almost all pictures so that's not much help.

 

Secondly I need the flotilla markings. Stuttgart.de has listings of the vessels serving in each flotilla, together with the area of operation and some but not all of the flotilla emblems.  This is a rough compilation  of 1 to 12, the early flotillas only.

 

Flittilla Emblems

 

Now, R151 - 161 all served in the 7th flotilla in Norway, which is great because I have some good images of camouflage used in Norway but its frustrating that I don't have the emblem of the 7th.  Anyone who can help, please do...🙏

 

I'm submitting this post for geek post of the month :rofl:

 

2cm flak detail drawing coming on nicely, together with views of the later mount with a gun shield extrapolated from a great image I stumbled on, more later

 

Cheers

 

Steve

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  • Steve D changed the title to R25 class Räumboot
46 minutes ago, Dmitriy1967 said:

But perhaps this emblem was only on submarines.

🙄

I’m afraid so, each class of vessel had their own flotilla designation and associated emblem but thanks 

 

cheers

 

Steve

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