1:72 Avro Lancaster- Remembering the crew of ED412

dogsbody · August 15, 2022

I believe the handrail was there but I'm not sure they were painted yellow until post-war. I guess I could trawl through all my Lancaster refs, but that may take me a while.

Chris

cathasatail · August 15, 2022

29 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

I believe the handrail was there but I'm not sure they were painted yellow until post-war. I guess I could trawl through all my Lancaster refs, but that may take me a while.

I have a sneaking suspicion that you could very well be right. At a guess they could very well have been black or a similarly dark colour- the last 2 photos in my previous post seem to show the rail as darker than the 1st photo in that post. I'll keep digging for more evidence.

3 hours ago, Pete Robin said:

The other thing I spotted was the seat "cushion" on the pilots seat. As far as I know that should be his parachute pack. The pilots wore seat packs, the rest of the crew, chest packs.

Interestingly, from 52:50 onwards in this colour footage, it appears to show the parachute pack rising above the frame of the seat pan. Might it be possible that the parachute pack is resting on a cushion?

The initial photo on the post that's linked below seems to show a cushion as well:

Best wishes,

Sam

Edit: Additional photos can be found on this site which point to light coloured/yellow handrails (in particular the colour image 2/3rds of the way down the page with the flight engineer leaning backwards):

https://www.ordinarycrew.co.uk/the-avro-lancaster

Edited August 15, 2022 by cathasatail

galgos · August 16, 2022

Glad you found my website of some interest (www.ordinarycrew.co.uk). In my mind there is no doubt whatsoever that the handrail was yellow. The strongest evidence is the front end of a 467 squadron Lanc PO-F (DV372) which is in the IWM, though I saw it last at Duxford. It’s untouched, unrestored, left just as it was…..and the handrail is yellow.

Max

Chuuurles · August 16, 2022

mate, this is epic!

Mancunian airman · August 16, 2022

Here is the sister to ED412 . . .

I would also suggest that the rear turret will be the early FN50 and as such the rear perspex part of the kit should be entirely black

ie Not having the additional windows

You aint going to get much nearer the serial unless you find the actual aircraft

I hope it helps

Ian

Edited August 16, 2022 by Mancunian airman
More detail . . .

Pete Robin · August 17, 2022

On 8/15/2022 at 10:26 PM, cathasatail said:

Interestingly, from 52:50 onwards in this colour footage, it appears to show the parachute pack rising above the frame of the seat pan. Might it be possible that the parachute pack is resting on a cushion?

It certainly do look like it's resting on something. Just wondering if it's because some pilots were "shortar**s" and needed a boost😉. Seriously though, I know my references aren't in any way shape or form exhaustive, but the few pics I could find of empty seats, seem to show just the pan and no cushion. Again, wondering if there was some form of cushion that was removable or adjustable. I guess unless we can ask someone who sat in said seat, we aren't ever gonna know for certain.

It's an interesting discussion though, based as it is, around such a splendid model.

Regards

Pete

cathasatail · August 19, 2022

On 8/16/2022 at 10:18 PM, Mancunian airman said:

Here is the sister to ED412 . . .

I would also suggest that the rear turret will be the early FN50 and as such the rear perspex part of the kit should be entirely black

ie Not having the additional windows

You aint going to get much nearer the serial unless you find the actual aircraft

I hope it helps

Ian

Hi Ian,

That's a fantastic photo, much appreciated!

Regarding the rear turret- would that be the FN20 that you're referring to? And with painting areas of the perspex, are you referring to the vertical windows running just behind the main bulk of perspex (ie: on the rearmost kit part of the framing)? (I just want to make sure before committing to painting)

Many thanks,

Sam

Bell209 · August 22, 2022

These may be of use to you - nose turret (taken by me at the South Australian Aviation Museum):

Rear turret (taken by me at the Queensland Aviation Museum):

Hope they help.

SafetyDad · August 22, 2022

On 16/08/2022 at 06:20, galgos said:

Glad you found my website of some interest (www.ordinarycrew.co.uk). In my mind there is no doubt whatsoever that the handrail was yellow. The strongest evidence is the front end of a 467 squadron Lanc PO-F (DV372) which is in the IWM, though I saw it last at Duxford. It’s untouched, unrestored, left just as it was…..and the handrail is yellow.

Max

Further to Max's comments, here is the aircraft in question

Avro Lancaster cockpit interior colour IWM Britmodeller DSCF1815

Avro Lancaster cockpit interior colour IWM Britmodeller DSCF1820

My photo file has these credits to Britmodeller, so they are drawn from another thread somewhere here. I'm happy to remove them if the original poster wishes - please PM me.

SD

Mancunian airman · August 22, 2022

On 8/19/2022 at 10:25 AM, cathasatail said:

Hi Ian,

That's a fantastic photo, much appreciated!

Regarding the rear turret- would that be the FN20 that you're referring to? And with painting areas of the perspex, are you referring to the vertical windows running just behind the main bulk of perspex (ie: on the rearmost kit part of the framing)? (I just want to make sure before committing to painting)

Many thanks,

Sam

Hi Sam

Yes you need to paint the area that forms the rear of the turret to give it that FN20 type . . .

rgds

Ian

cathasatail · August 26, 2022

Hi everyone,

Thank you all for your very helpful photo references, they're much appreciated!

Alas, the time that I have left to be able to make progress on this build has once again drawn to a close. I head back to university tomorrow, and leave behind one of the only real breaks that I'll have before Christmas. I'll still make progress every other weekend but the pace of this build might, sadly, be a bit limited for a period of time.

In recent days I have found myself in Lincolnshire, and had the privilege of visiting the International Bomber Command Centre near Lincoln itself.

On the walls surrounding its central spire (being the same height as the wingspan of an Avro Lancaster) lie the names of the 58,000 men and women who lost their lives in Bomber Command during the Second World War. I want to thank the exceptional volunteers who run such an incredible and important site, and especially the volunteer guide who offered us a poppy, for when we found Horace and his crew.

We were able to find the entirety of the Badge crew on the walls of remembrance. A rather moving day indeed.

Being not too far away from Nottinghamshire, I only thought it right that we take the time to visit another important location...

Some 79 years ago, the crew of ED412 took off from this very runway, at the former RAF Langar. Now used for civilian skydiving, its weathered taxiways once took the weight of fully-laden Merlin-powered Lancasters as they taxied out from their dispersals and began their journey Eastwards. Night after night, day after day.

And it is with this thought that I shall say thank you for following this build, and for your patience.

I certainly hope to continue to provide as regular updates as I can. But until then...

Thank you again, and see you soon,

Sam

cathasatail · December 31, 2022

Hi everyone,

Gosh it's been a long time!

As it turns out, the amount of free time that I have had this year has been... minimal at best. These past two days (yesterday and today) have been the only real opportunities that I have had to sit down and get some modelling done (at long last!).

Knowing that I had a limited amount of time, I thought I would have a go at one of the engines- adding rivets, scratch-building a few parts, and adding a few panel lines. In other words, something to rekindle why I love this hobby and enjoy the brief time I have to work on the Lancaster.

I should say that a great deal of the work below will need touching up, and certainly will be when I have the time.

Rivets and panel lines were added, and the circular port on the lower half, near the middle, of the nacelle was drilled out further. On photographs it appears to be glass covered- I presume it's an inspection port of some description?

The air intakes (carburettor air intakes???) are courtesy of QuickBoost.

The hollow behind the shutter ramp was hollowed out and the illusion of piping/cables/struts (as seen on reference photographs) was added with plasticard strips.

Again, a bit rough around the edges at this stage, but this will all be neatened up when the time comes.

I couldn't resist a little bit of underwing riveting....

A quick view of the tires, courtesy of Eduard.

I had initially lost the kit mid-upper turret that I had been working on (don't worry, it was just the framing) and so I scavenged the parts from a Lancaster built about 6 years ago (this previous turret is shown above).

The framing was scavenged and cleaned up (you can still see black paint from the original build), and work has been made on the framing.

I'm afraid that's all for now. Looking forwards into the new year, the next period of time that I'll be able to devote to modelling won't be until April/May time after this year's exams. Alas the overwhelming majority of my time these days is spent away from home on placement or studying, and so while the odd weekend might be an option, I don't want to raise any hopes about a great deal of progress any time soon.

But regardless, here's to the new year, and thank you all for your patience with this project 😊

Until next time!

Best wishes,

Sam

dogsbody · December 31, 2022

Yes, carb intakes.

Chris

cathasatail · June 10, 2023

Hi everyone,

I'm struggling to believe that 6 months have passed since my last update. How on Earth has that happened?!

With one more university year down, and a final one to go, I find myself with a little bit of time here and there to make some progress on this project.

It would appear that during construction of the area, I have erroneously included the cabin cooling intake on the starboard side of the fuselage interior. As it turns out (see thread here), this intake formed part of modifications to Lancasters in preparation for their use in the Far East (I gather that PA474 and NX611 received these modifications).

To illustrate this issue, here is the interior aspect as described, with the offending intake and associated piping:

As evidenced in this previously referenced image from September 1942, the cooling intake is absent on the starboard side:

(Source: IWM TR192)

So, it looks like I'll be removing that part from the interior, and it saves me having to add the associated external fittings later on.

However, this leads me into one of the main questions I have...

It almost seems a shame to lock away the work done on the interior forever. Whilst that is still my intention, I was wondering if anyone had any good ideas as to alternative ways of displaying the interior a bit more? I'm slightly averse the gouging out curved cut-outs into the side of the fuselage and lining the cut surfaces with red. Perhaps the least destructive option might be to assemble the interior and take full-length photographs prior to closing the fuselage up?

I would also be incredibly grateful if anyone happens to have any reference material pertaining to the dinghy stowage hatch (seemingly located within the starboard wing). I presume this was fitted to all aircraft? It's rather hard to make out the presence of the panel owing to a lack of red surround in contemporary photographs- whereas PA474 has this outlined rather crisply in red. Was this area outlined in red during service?

Going forwards, I'll be working on the tail surfaces to experiment with the surface finish and paintwork before committing to riveting the wings and adding additional surface details.

Until next time (which should be very soon!).

Best wishes,

Sam

cathasatail · June 10, 2023

Hi all,

As promised, here's a little update from today's work so far. Apologies, by the way, as I'm using a substitute camera that isn't quite as optimal as my normal one is- this should only be temporary!

Consulting additional contemporary interior photos (examples of which can be found here at www.lancaster-archive.com) confirmed an absence of the aforementioned piping/ducting. Thankfully this wasn't too troublesome to remove:

A little bit of re-working of the rear section had to be done, but thankfully the Elsan toilet is still in one piece:

Time was spent adding additional wiring too:

Now, this is the test piece that I was referring to in my previous post:

I started with the kit part and then added any missing panel lines, added the rivet lines, added a few surface details with plasticard, and then used Mr Surfacer 1200 to add a stressed skin effect. I fully appreciate that this effect isn't noticeable with comparatively "new" Lancasters and seems to appear after a great deal of use. However, the effect here appears to be rather subtle and I would argue creates a little more variation and interest in the model than a completely flat surface might otherwise do.

If it appears to be too prominent under paint then a quick pass with a sanding sponge should subdue the effect.

For now though, thanks for dropping by!

Best wishes,

Sam

cathasatail · June 15, 2023

Hi all,

Taking (what I thought was) a brief break from the interior, I thought I might have a quick glance at the armament.....

......4 days later.....

Turning to the small bomb containers (SBCs) first, I had bought the Belcher Bits SBCs but found that although I didn't need to clean up any join lines, the surface detail on the Airfix part appealed to me a little more- in particular the casting of the longitudinal tube running along the upper surface of the SBC.

(Source: Original unknown, but can be found here)

And here is the Airfix rendition, suitably spruced up with plasticard (wiring still yet to be added!):

Compared to the real thing:

(Source: IWM CH 18371 - linked here)

That's all well and good for the 2 SBCs with 90x 4lbs incendiaries that ED412 carried, but what about the 3 SBCs with 8x 30lbs incendiaries? That required a different approach...

Using the Airfix parts as a guide, I scratchbuilt 3 SBC units and spruced them up accordingly to roughly the same standard as the kit parts.

Empty SBCs aren't going to do the job, they need their 30lbs munitions.

And so, armed with a helpful diagram and dimensions (found here), I set about creating them from cocktail sticks, thin wiring, and Blu Tack:

In terms of their final colour, Belcher Bits has them down as being painted with "Dull Red (that brownish red used for fuselage codes) with a thin bright red stripe around the nose" (source), and this is evidenced by recovered munitions (as seen here).

There we go, 5 SBCs almost complete. All that's left is to add the wiring, add a bulkhead to the 30lbs carriers, and paint them. All in all I'm very happy with how these have turned out!

Until next time...

Best wishes,

Sam

Thom216 · June 15, 2023

Wow, great work on them wee bombs!

cathasatail · July 28, 2023

Hi all,

Gosh it's been a few weeks!

Work has resumed, at last, and I've been completing a few of the final details of the interior before it is closed up.

A bit of work has been done on the wireless operator's station, with the addition of the oxygen hose.

An addition of a curtain between the navigator's table and the pilot's position, along with the addition of a pair of binoculars(?) set in a holder above the table.

A few of the mechanisms of the ammunition tracks have been added.

Note the addition of a first aid box, and additional ammunition track detail.

I have also been experimenting with an idea to replicate the "stressed skin" appearance (primarily for visual interest rather than historical authenticity). First I created the rivet lines, then filled in the panels with layers of Mr Surfacer, and finally the surface was sprayed with a light coat of black. Here are the results of testing:

Personally, whilst I can see that a brief sanding pass (or the use of fewer Mr Surfacer layers) might be required, I am quite fond of the appearance of it. Under layers of post-shading, panel line/rivet washes, weathering, and decals, I think it will blend in rather nicely.

Another experimental piece (in the form of an engine) turned out quite well, too:

And, finally (for this update) the mid-upper turret has almost been completed. All that's left are the spent-ammunition bags and the seat. Following this, the necessary internal fuselage detailing will be added, ready for closing-up.

When it comes to closing the fuselage up, at the moment I'm still not convinced that I could cut sections out of the fuselage sufficiently cleanly or effectively to show the interior.

Does anyone have any ideas as to how I might be able to show the interior off? My current plan is to do a thorough photo survey of the interior and then display these photos with the display base in the future, somehow.

However, for now, thank you for dropping by!

See you soon!

Sam

cngaero · July 28, 2023

A lovely and inspirational story.

I love following builds such as this, to me, they sum up what modelling is all about.

Well done so far.

Keeff · July 29, 2023

A fascinating backstory to your build and; considering the scale you're working in, the level of detail being added and scratchbuilding going on is just incredible!

Keith 😁

alt-92 · July 29, 2023

Lovely build

I have my eyes set on doing ED418 / EM-G at some point, as that was lost over my hometown 4 days before Chastise.

As far as exposing the inner works go, I'd suspect the thickness of the plastic may interfere. Perhaps thin sheet, or foil?
Or otherwise, the photos would suffice - I've done so with a Hampden.

cathasatail · July 29, 2023

Thank you everyone for your very kind comments, it means a great deal to me!

@alt-92 I must say that your Hampden is truly remarkable- the surface detail and the care paid to the interior is tremendous. I am now leaning 80% towards adopting that approach of photographing the interior then assembling.

The job for yesterday and today has been the wings, and specifically the upper wing surfaces. Airfix has done a good job on the panel lines but I felt as though there were some missing... cue a whole day with a re-scribing tool:

Perhaps not perfect but now we move to today's activities with the rivet wheel (hand-held, mind):

In terms of further surface detail, there are some circular and more rounded ports/panels missing. The radius required is so small as to be (without a template/stencil) impossible to scribe, hence a thought that exceptionally thin plasticard could be used to replicate these details.

Apart from that, I'll be aiming to use the same technique as with the trial pieces- namely, using Mr Surfacer (rather light applications this time) to add some surface variation.

I would estimate that I'm about a day or two from closing up the fuselage for good, with there not being much left to do internally.

For now though, thanks again for having a look and following along.

All the best,

Sam

Edited July 30, 2023 by cathasatail
"Mr Surface" changed to "Mr Surfacer" (no relation)