SU15 Flagon query

[cherisy]

2 hours ago, tony.t said:

There remains a bit of mystery regarding Osipovich's Su-15, one or more veterans from the Sokol-based squadrons claiming they flew balalaika-winged jets with the conical radome, updated with gunpods, but recently we've grown accustomed to the unreliability of Russian "information". Begemot were likely right the first time, saying Bort 17 was an Su-15TM.

According to at least one individual in USAF intel., who pored over photos of the Su-15 jets from Sakhalin Island circa 1983, they were all Taifun Mod TM types: extended wings, ogival radome, twin nosewheels. So he says.

 

I haven't recently sifted through the Gordon/Komisarov doorstop book on the Flagon, but my understanding is that the original Su-15 sans suffixe (A) and vanilla Su-15UT two-seaters were out of service by 1980. The last four years of production was exclusively making 119 operationally-capable Su-15UMs.

 

Also note all the aircraft had 2⁰ main and tail plane anhedral. The Trumpy needs tweaking slightly, but the 1/72nd scale kits go together really well and there are replacement radomes available which give it the right length.

 

HTH,

 

Tony 

Further to my earlier post I've actually  found a Russian website via the ARC forum ww2.RU  where a discussion  took place after a member built the aircraft as a TM. There was mention of Osipovich's  aircraft turning up as a museum exhibit in Russia and a post from the chap who runs Begemot who was very insistent that the aircraft wasn't  a TM but a modified A ( to carry gunpods)

He also stated that a second SU15 that was airborne  that night from the same Regiment was an A version. I don't know how to post the link on here unfortunately  and I'm aware it may be a bit of a no no. But I found it easily enough just by putting SU15 bort no 17.

[tony.t]

On balance, I guess we follow Begemot's instructions then and use the Flagon A kit rather than the TM. 

 

The ex-SAC intel guy who said Bort 17 was a TM was very insistent, saying he went through stacks of photos and all the jets at Sokol air base were TMs, but he is apt to get permanently welded to his theories.

 

I believe it may have been just the balalaika winged, conical-radomed Su-15UTs that were retired by 1980, especially as all 1976-1980 production comprised operationally-capable Su-15UMs, TMs having been built between 1970 and 1976. 

 

Given the higher landing/takeoff speed of the batch 8 jets with the original wing, I also find it improbable that the pilots would be confused about sub-type.

 

I suspect both versions of the story are actually half-truths and there likely was a mix of Flagon types on Sakhalin island.

 

Tony 

[cherisy]

7 hours ago, tony.t said:

On balance, I guess we follow Begemot's instructions then and use the Flagon A kit rather than the TM. 

 

The ex-SAC intel guy who said Bort 17 was a TM was very insistent, saying he went through stacks of photos and all the jets at Sokol air base were TMs, but he is apt to get permanently welded to his theories.

 

I believe it may have been just the balalaika winged, conical-radomed Su-15UTs that were retired by 1980, especially as all 1976-1980 production comprised operationally-capable Su-15UMs, TMs having been built between 1970 and 1976. 

 

Given the higher landing/takeoff speed of the batch 8 jets with the original wing, I also find it improbable that the pilots would be confused about sub-type.

 

I suspect both versions of the story are actually half-truths and there likely was a mix of Flagon types on Sakhalin island.

 

Tony 

The plot thickens. The Begemot sheet states thar 17 is now preserved at Yuzno Sakhanlisk City. A bit of work on Google shows a very sorry looking airframe with original  conical nose but kinked wing bearing the bort no 40. Now the airframe could have recieved the new number in the years following but it may be that it is one of modified airframes as the sheet describes although there is no mention of a new wing. Going by some of the remarks on the photos it seems this is indeed the airframe. Curious. Still it shouldn't be too difficult to replicate  .

[tony.t]

Yes, found that pic. It's a late (Batch 11+) Su-15 sans suffixe with the cranked double delta wing but Flagon A type conical radome and single slightly bigger nosewheel (with single bulge on the NLG doors). Late Flagon As were built that way, and retrofitted with gunpod and Aphid missile capability later.

 

If you want to build Bort 40 as per photo it requires the Trumpeter Flagon A kit fitted with Flagon F wings. If that was Bort 17 in its operational days it would explain the confusion between early and late Flagons. 

 

Nose wheels in mm in 1:1 scale: 

Su-15/-15UT had single 660x200 KT.51 wheel 

Su-15T/-15TM/-15UM had twin 620x180 KN.9 wheels 

Main wheels for all were KT.117 measuring 880x230 

 

HTH

 

Tony 

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by tony.t
Batch no

[cherisy]

47 minutes ago, tony.t said:

Yes, found that pic. It's a late (Batch 15+) Su-15 sans suffixe with the cranked double delta wing but Flagon A type conical radome and single slightly bigger nosewheel (with single bulge on the NLG doors). Late Flagon As were built that way, and retrofitted with gunpod and Aphid missile capability later.

 

If you want to build Bort 40 as per photo it requires the Trumpeter Flagon A kit fitted with Flagon F wings. If that was Bort 17 in its operational days it would explain the confusion between early and late Flagons. 

 

Nose wheels in mm in 1:1 scale: 

Su-15/-15UT had single 660x200 KT.51 wheel 

Su-15T/-15TM/-15UM had twin 620x180 KN.9 wheels 

Main wheels for all were KT.117 measuring 880x230 

 

HTH

 

Tony 

 

 

 

Which explains Bort 17 carrying the gun pod ( the pilot fired 200 off rounds of AP as a "warning ")

So we may have gotten to the bottom

 Of this..lots of surgery needed.

It also explains the American Intel guy seeing TMs. He could see the double Delta wings.

[John R]

I built a Trumpeter Su 15A back in 2009 and made the following notes which may be of interest particularly regarding the length.

 

A kit that, at first examination, looked really good. However on starting construction it was apparent that a lot of things were wrong.

The main problem was the front section was too long, almost as if someone had stretched it forward of the wing trailing edge. I wondered if, when re-sizing the drawing on a computer, the wrong ‘handle’ had been used. One at a side instead of a corner thus affecting the proportions. The wing sweep was 2 deg too much. It doesn’t sound much but amounted to about 3mm where the wing leading edge met the fuselage. Also the way the front fuselage met the radome looked completely wrong so a search of the available data was started. The first thing that this revealed that was that a replacement nose, cockpit surround and fin were already available from Pavla models. As this would have added another £12 or so to the cost of the kit and did not appear to address the problem of the shape of the front fuselage I decided to modify things myself…

The cockpit surround is moulded as a separate piece so it was possible to move the cockpit back some 5mm. The intakes were cut off and moved back a similar amount. This was not easy and involved making new splitter plates. By a bit of judicious sanding the radome was brought to a shape and angle closer to that of the aircraft and a lot of filler was added to the lower forward fuselage to bring it to a shape more in keeping with a supersonic aircraft. The downside of this was the loss of all the engraved detail and I did not feel that my scribing technique was up to replacing it.

The fin seemed fine except that it lacked a bit of avionic kit so this was added. The only problem I had with this was that whilst painting the model I dropped it – right on the point of the fin and had to start again!

After much heart searching I decided to modify the wing leading edge by increasing the chord at the tips. This was fine until I realised that this would involve extending the wing fences and moving the missile pylons forward.

The jury is still out on the validity of the decals around the nose, as they don’t seem to appear on any of the photos that I have seen. I suspect some ‘Odd Rods’ radar aerials should be under the nose and there are some decals needed on top of the intakes to represent louvres.

 

Time has dimmed my memory but I think that it was this kit that had a cockpit that scaled out to be around 2 feet wide at the pilot's shoulder, which seemed a trifle cramped

 

I would be interested in any comments

John

[tony.t]

I agree with your comments about the wing sweep and fuselage length, especially when comparing the Trumpeters to the rougher but more accurate A-Model kit, which might be good for a set of TM wings. However, that's Trumpeter, and the 1/72 trio does look the part despite the elongation and excessive sweep. The "CAD stretch" is much more noticeable and bothersome in Trumpeter's 1/48 Flagons.

After a couple of years on the display shelf I won't be getting out the calipers — will simply continue hoping that ICM, Meng or GWH do an accurate Su-15 series in 1/48 to replace them. Now that would be wonderful. A real Cold War hot rod.

 

Tony 

[modelldoc]

Lightyears before I had build the double seater from PM:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/17786772386/in/photolist-q1MUDt-t6KRKA-t8Sgfy-t8Sgfd-t6KRKq-moD6Vp-iekm7f-oo5k5j-9eCEA5-9cdnd4

 

The markings are not originally from the kit.

 

modelldoc

 

[IanHx]

On 5/14/2022 at 2:51 PM, Rob de Bie said:

 

I want to give an honourable mention to the VES kit. It has crazy detail for an older injection moulded kit, but the 8 part fuselage is difficult to assmble correctly.

 

 

 

 

Rob

 

 

I built survived that kit.  The pictures gave me a cold sweat !