SU15 Flagon query

[cherisy]

Hi

I've been looking at doing a PM model SU15 Flagon TM ( Flagon F) as the infamous Bort no 17 that shot down the Korean Airlines 747 in 1983. I  was going to use the 1/72 Begemot decal sheet.  However the sheet depicts that aircraft as a modernised Flagon A with the original  delta wing. The only photos I can find online are illustrations only which depict it as a cranked wing Flagon F. Help ! Who is correct. I am assuming Begemot are considering  their country of origin. 

Can anyone shed any light ?

Thanks

Lee

[Shorty84]

Hi @cherisy,

 

according to this discussion on BM, Osipovich's Flagon was a Su-15 of Batch 8 (original Delta wing, conical radome) which means your Su-15TM is the wrong, late variant (double delta wing and ogival radome) while you would need an early variant (Flagon-A):

 

Trumpeter currently offers this variant in 1/72 but the kit is not without faults itself: https://www.scalemates.com/de/kits/trumpeter-01624-su-15-flagon-a--106229

 

Cheers

Markus

Edited May 13, 2022 by Shorty84

[cherisy]

52 minutes ago, Shorty84 said:

Hi @cherisy,

 

according to this discussion on BM, Osipovich's Flagon was a Su-15 of Batch 8 (original Delta wing, conical radome) which means your Su-15TM is the wrong, late variant (double delta wing and ogival radome) while you would need an early variant (Flagon-A):

 

Trumpeter currently offers this variant in 1/72 but the kit is not without faults itself: https://www.scalemates.com/de/kits/trumpeter-01624-su-15-flagon-a--106229

 

Cheers

Markus

Thanks Markus. That gives me the excuse to get the Trumpeter kit then 😀

That frees up my pioneer kit for the camouflage  version seen towards the end of the cold war.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

According to the book "Sukhoi Interceptors" by Yefim Gordon and Dmitriy Komissarov on page 308 the aircraft of Ghennadiy Osipovich was Sukhoi Su-15TM "Red 17" from 365th IAP with double delta wing.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero+Christian

Edited May 13, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[cherisy]

1 minute ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

According to "Sukhoi Interceptors" by Yefim Gordon and Dmitriy Komissarov on page 308 Ghennadiy Osipovich's aircraft "Red 17" from 365th IAP was a Su-15TM with double delta wing.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

The plot thickens then. According  to the Begemot sheet Bort no 17 is on display somewhere. I wonder  if there are any photos anywhere? 

Cheers

Lee

[Shorty84]

The info that Osipovich's Flagon was a Su-15TM seems to be incorrect in the light of new information (if this error was deliberate or just a mistake is not known). Begemot decals, which are known for their rigorous research, revised their original Sheet and changed Red 17 from an Su-15TM to an early series Su-15 san suffix (see option 2): http://www.begemotdecals.ru/doc/48-024 Su-15 (2).pdf

 

Also, Begemot gives Osipovich's squadron as the 777th IAP and when you look at the link to the Russian forum board linked in above's discussion, they say Veterans of the 777th IAP confirmed they never flew the TM, only old Su-15s.

 

Maybe @Aardvark can chime in and confirm.

 

Cheers

Markus

[John R]

If you are thinking of buying the Trumpeter 1/72 Flagon A you should be aware that here is much wrong with it.

John

[drake122]

What is the most accurate Su-15/17 in the 72nd scale then?

[Ryan Hothersall]

My 1:72 Trumpeter Su-15 Flagon A built as Red 17. 
 

I used Begemot decals. 
 

 

Edited May 14, 2022 by Ryan Hothersall

[Rob de Bie]

2 hours ago, drake122 said:

What is the most accurate Su-15/17 in the 72nd scale then?

 

I want to give an honourable mention to the VES kit. It has crazy detail for an older injection moulded kit, but the 8 part fuselage is difficult to assmble correctly.

 

 

 

 

Rob

 

[Rob de Bie]

And while on the subject: does anyone know this Su-15 book or booklet? Is it worthwhile obtaining? Or who's the writer or publisher? Thanks in advance!

 

 

Rob

 

[cherisy]

6 hours ago, John R said:

If you are thinking of buying the Trumpeter 1/72 Flagon A you should be aware that here is much wrong with it.

John

Yep I've read the reviews  but it seems the only kid on the block at the moment. Which is a shame

[cherisy]

4 hours ago, Ryan Hothersall said:

My 1:72 Trumpeter Su-15 Flagon A built as Red 17. 
 

I used Begemot decals. 
 

 

I'd seen your build online. It looks great 👍 

[Fukuryu]

On 5/14/2022 at 11:01 AM, Rob de Bie said:

And while on the subject: does anyone know this Su-15 book or booklet? Is it worthwhile obtaining? Or who's the writer or publisher? Thanks in advance!

 

Rob

 

 WARNING!!! PICTURE-HEAVY POST AHEAD!!!

 

Hello, @Rob de Bie. I do have that booklet; it's 48 pages in length including the (very) soft covers, print is newspaper-quality but there a lot of details drawings, 1/72 plans and plenty of general and details pictures. Text is fully in Russian and due to my total lack of skills in said language and can't give you the information you asked for; what I can do is share some pictures of it and hope that a Russian-speaking BMer can help you further. 

 

Disclaimer: the pictures below are only for the purpose of reviewing the book in question and are not of enough quality for any other purpose.

 

[cherisy]

Interesting that they show Bort no 17 as an SU15TM though.

[Rob de Bie]

1 hour ago, Fukuryu said:

 WARNING!!! PICTURE-HEAVY POST AHEAD!!!

 

Hello, @Rob de Bie. I do have that booklet; it's 48 pages in length including the (very) soft covers, print is newspaper-quality but there a lot of details drawings, 1/72 plans and plenty of general and details pictures. Text is fully in Russian and due to my total lack of skills in said language and can't give you the information you asked for; what I can do is share some pictures of it and hope that a Russian-speaking BMer can help you further.

 

Daniel, many thanks for your mini-review, I really appreciate it! The drawings looks very familiar, maybe I've seen them in another publication too? Could you check whether you can spot the name Vladimir Rudenko (Владимир Руденко) somewhere? I think he was the drawing artist.

 

A story that I hopefully remember correctly, from 30 years ago. A friend went to Russia in the early nineties (for MAKS at Ramenskoya I think), and met a Su-15 drawing artist, probably Rudenko. My friend was amazed at the details, unheard of for a Soviet aircraft, and asked him how he did it. I hope I remember correctly that the artist had access to a preserved example, either a monument or in a museum, and based his drawings on that, doing countless studies and repeat visits to the aircraft. Again I hope I remember correctly that he made an error: he used the wrong length dimensions, that either included or excluded the pitot tube or the vertical tail overhang. The drawings were revised. But I do not know which book or magazine contains which version.

 

Rob

[Fukuryu]

57 minutes ago, cherisy said:

Interesting that they show Bort no 17 as an SU15TM though.

 

Checking my other books on Su-15 for confirmation of that fact I came to the AJ Press' Aircraft Monograph 1 (note that the cover I post below says 14 but that is the original Polish version) from 1994 that has Red 17 as a -15TM on the cover, and to my surprise, when I looked inside I found all the pictures, drawings and plans included in the Russian booklet, even the same colour profiles; I then remembered I noted that in the past but have forgotten about it, sorry. Given the better printing quality and the fact that the text is in English I think this one makes the Russian edition redundant, @Rob de Bie.

 

 

Regarding the type flown by Maj. Ossipovich on the interception of KE007, Yefim Gordon on his 2004's book "Sukhoi Interceptors" gives it as a TM. The other works I was able to consult (and understand...) mentions "Su-15" but without indication if they are using it as a general name or referring to the Su-15 sans suffix specifically. @cherisy, do you have newer or more precise information about this?

[Fukuryu]

@Rob de Bie, we crossed posts. I hope you now remember where you have seen the illustrations before! In the AJ Press Monograph the drawings (no further distinction) are attributed to Valery Pankov and Vadim Ponomariev, who are listed as authors on the cover. Colour illustrations (cover and profiles) are by Jaroslaw Wróbel, if that helps. 

[Rob de Bie]

12 minutes ago, Fukuryu said:

@Rob de Bie, we crossed posts. I hope you now remember where you have seen the illustrations before! In the AJ Press Monograph the drawings (no further distinction) are attributed to Valery Pankov and Vadim Ponomariev, who are listed as authors on the cover. Colour illustrations (cover and profiles) are by Jaroslaw Wróbel, if that helps. 

 

I'll check my Su-15 references when I' home again - stay tuned..

 

Rob

[cherisy]

8 hours ago, Fukuryu said:

 

Checking my other books on Su-15 for confirmation of that fact I came to the AJ Press' Aircraft Monograph 1 (note that the cover I post below says 14 but that is the original Polish version) from 1994 that has Red 17 as a -15TM on the cover, and to my surprise, when I looked inside I found all the pictures, drawings and plans included in the Russian booklet, even the same colour profiles; I then remembered I noted that in the past but have forgotten about it, sorry. Given the better printing quality and the fact that the text is in English I think this one makes the Russian edition redundant, @Rob de Bie.

 

 

Regarding the type flown by Maj. Ossipovich on the interception of KE007, Yefim Gordon on his 2004's book "Sukhoi Interceptors" gives it as a TM. The other works I was able to consult (and understand...) mentions "Su-15" but without indication if they are using it as a general name or referring to the Su-15 sans suffix specifically. @cherisy, do you have newer or more precise information about this?

Sadly not. All I have is the Begemot decal sheet that give 17 as a Flagon A  that had recieved modifications  during its service life. There is some evidence apparently  from other pilots at the time that they were flying the earlier Flagon A and not the TM Flagon F. Given that older aircraft were used by the Regiments in the East that would make sense.

[Smudge]

I'm always interested in Cold War USSR aviation, so I've been following this along.

 

Given the sensitivity around this incident and the secrecy surrounding PVO operations of the era, I'm surprised that even the identity of the aircraft has been confirmed. If Red 17 was the aircraft, then I'm surprised that the specific type of Flagon is not more readily known.

 

On 13/05/2022 at 23:30, cherisy said:

........................... According  to the Begemot sheet Bort no 17 is on display somewhere. I wonder  if there are any photos anywhere? 

 

Could anyone shed any light on the question posed in the above quote?

 

Also, I'd like to give a mention to the 1/72 Sukhoi Su-15TM and UM from Amodel. I know Amodel can divide opinion, but they are generally correct in shape and dimension, and I am sure they would be a much better option than the rather poor (in my opinion) offering from PM/Pioneer2. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on Amodel Flagon's.

 

To add to this. I have just realised Amodel kit includes decal option for 'Red 17' (or '17 Red' if you prefer) and they believe it to be a TM. Here's an interesting article

 

http://designer.home.xs4all.nl/models/su-15/su-15.htm

 

For what it's worth, my opinion would be for an aircraft with the latter 'cranked' leading edge. Be it a new build or re-winged older airframe. My reasoning being that the Flagon had been in service for many years by the time of this incicent, and re-winging was carried out on older airframes, so it's quite likely. But that's just conjecture of course. I'd love to see the photo's!

 

Cheers.

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by Smudge

[cherisy]

I'd read in the comments made in the thread that Begemot were always well researched. That said are we ever going to know for sure?. Like you I've an Interest  in cold war hardware, probably as there was a likelihood I was going to encounter Floggers, fitters and Fishbeds during my  RAF days in Germany.  However any photos from the 80s are like hens teeth. Most decal sheets these days are for the early 90s on .

I started this thread and I'm still doubtful if it's a modified A or a TM.

I agree about the Amodel kits. They are a bugger to make but look great when they are and the shapes are right. Just finished an SU9 Fishpot that really captures the look.

[Smudge]

I have the Su-9 Fishpot too. Must dig them out and have a go.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Smudge

[tony.t]

There remains a bit of mystery regarding Osipovich's Su-15, one or more veterans from the Sokol-based squadrons claiming they flew balalaika-winged jets with the conical radome, updated with gunpods, but recently we've grown accustomed to the unreliability of Russian "information". Begemot were likely right the first time, saying Bort 17 was an Su-15TM.

According to at least one individual in USAF intel., who pored over photos of the Su-15 jets from Sakhalin Island circa 1983, they were all Taifun Mod TM types: extended wings, ogival radome, twin nosewheels. So he says.

 

I haven't recently sifted through the Gordon/Komisarov doorstop book on the Flagon, but my understanding is that the original Su-15 sans suffixe (A) and vanilla Su-15UT two-seaters were out of service by 1980. The last four years of production was exclusively making 119 operationally-capable Su-15UMs.

 

Also note all the aircraft had 2⁰ main and tail plane anhedral. The Trumpy needs tweaking slightly, but the 1/72nd scale kits go together really well and there are replacement radomes available which give it the right length.

 

HTH,

 

Tony 

[cherisy]

16 minutes ago, tony.t said:

There remains a bit of mystery regarding Osipovich's Su-15, one or more veterans from the Sokol-based squadrons claiming they flew balalaika-winged jets with the conical radome, updated with gunpods, but recently we've grown accustomed to the unreliability of Russian "information". Begemot were likely right the first time, saying Bort 17 was an Su-15TM.

According to at least one individual in USAF intel., who pored over photos of the Su-15 jets from Sakhalin Island circa 1983, they were all Taifun Mod TM types: extended wings, ogival radome, twin nosewheels. So he says.

 

I haven't recently sifted through the Gordon/Komisarov doorstop book on the Flagon, but my understanding is that the original Su-15 sans suffixe (A) and vanilla Su-15UT two-seaters were out of service by 1980. The last four years of production was exclusively making 119 operationally-capable Su-15UMs.

 

Also note all the aircraft had 2⁰ main and tail plane anhedral. The Trumpy needs tweaking slightly, but the 1/72nd scale kits go together really well and there are replacement radomes available which give it the right length.

 

HTH,

 

Tony 

So in all likelihood  we will never know for sure and  one " could be right " if 17 was done either as a TM or an A. Sadly I think you are right as regards reliability  although I was always under the impression Begemot were  pretty good with their research unlike some certain other decal companies . I think I'm going to have to toss a coin  as to which mark I do it as . Interestingly the 707 that was shot down in 78 ( and can I find what bort number it is ? Nope) was a TM with no gun pods and carrying Anabs and Aphids. It was an Aphid that brought the plane down. 

Fast forward to 83 and the SU15 involved in the shoot down was carrying gun pods and Anabs only.