B-17 Bit o Lace anti glare panel

[Knight_Flyer]

Ok, this is bothering me somewhat. Does anyone know what is the actual colour of the B-17 Bit o Lace nose anti glare panel? Someone pointed out it looked like a pale colour and I've also noticed some model builds have it yellow. This I assume comes from photos of the plane showing a pale colour.

 

I've always thought they be painted a dark colour such as olive drab. Would have thought a pale colour do the the opposite of anti glare... throw a lot of glare into the pilots eyes defeating the purpose of painting it in the first place.

 

Here you can see in front of the cockpit windows - a pale looking panel?

 

 

[bentwaters81tfw]

OD, but faded.

[Stuart Wilson]

Looks like faded OD to me, bearing in mind this a/c had seen a lot of service by the time the photo was taken. Chromate yellow tends to look a lot more, well, yellow. 

 

Of course I could be wrong and it's faded Chromate yellow. Or it could have been re-painted in whatever matt paint they had available. Perhaps it wore off and the groundcrew just applied whatever they had. The anti-glare panels on the nacelles still appear dark so perhaps It's not OD. Either way it's some sort of light brown when the photo was taken.

 

I haven't really helped have I?

 

Stuart

[TAG]

There are exceptions to every hard & fast "rule" when it comes to these things, but in many, many years of research, I have never come across a B-17 with YZC anti-glare patches. That's not to say it absolutely never happened, cuz it absolutely might have, even though the chances of it having happened are very remote indeed. So I would agree with the others, what you are looking at is sun-bleached, faded OD 41. Here's an original Kodachrome period photo of "Schnozzle" that shows just how faded OD 41 could get (note how dark the fresh OD on the cheek gun emplacement is):

 

And here's some more period piccies of C-47's showing just how many different tones faded OD 41 could take on, this first one is almost pink:

 

Hope that helps,

 

- Thomaz

Edited May 10, 2022 by TAG

[Michael51]

I think that anti-glare panel is Olive Drab.

 

There are some good reasons given above by other forum members for assuming this.

 

A look at Roger Freeman's "the Mighty Eighth Warpaint and Heraldry" is a visual exercise in how many variants of colouration there are. Combine that reference with his "The Mighty Eighth in Colour" and one may wonder if any colour in a photograph really looks as it appeared to the eye at the time.

 

Although I do not believe Freeman specifically mentions the vagaries of assessing colours based on the film type used, the authors of the Wingleader Photo Archive publications do. Their Lancaster, Hurricane and Spitfire volumes make much reference to the effects on colour of different film types.

 

The only people who claim certainty in 'correct colours' appear to be the model paint manufacturers. I don't trust them,

 

Michael

Edited May 10, 2022 by Michael51

[Knight_Flyer]

Thanks guys, just wanted to double check I wasn't missing anything. I have come across archive film of the B-17 and in one shot looked to me faded OD. Other shots had a bit of yellow tint to it. As for the photos, some look enhanced or been reproduced too many times and colours appear to have been "corrected".

[G.R.Morrison]

"...one may wonder if any colour in a photograph really looks as it appeared to the eye at the time."

 

Michael51 -- spot-on.

 

Decades ago, on my honeymoon (she knew what she was in for), I photographed the B-17G 'Sally B' at an airshow at Duxford.  Overcast, 'cloudy bright' conditions.  Shot within only a minute or two, same camera, same lens, two different types of color film: in one series, the airplane is definitely 'brownish' green, in the others, much 'greener.'  So, what color was it?  "Yes." 😉 

 

Having been in numerous darkrooms since childhood, I also distrust black & white.  Film type enters the equation, but also developer temperature, and duration. Listening to friends discussing B+W photo interpretation, my wife chimed in, "I can tell you what colour that one was.  Grey."

 

GRM

 

"Ich bin kein 'Experte,' nur Historiker."

[nicholas mayhew]

17 hours ago, Knight_Flyer said:

Ok, this is bothering me somewhat. Does anyone know what is the actual colour of the B-17 Bit o Lace nose anti glare panel? Someone pointed out it looked like a pale colour and I've also noticed some model builds have it yellow. This I assume comes from photos of the plane showing a pale colour.

 

I've always thought they be painted a dark colour such as olive drab. Would have thought a pale colour do the the opposite of anti glare... throw a lot of glare into the pilots eyes defeating the purpose of painting it in the first place.

 

Here you can see in front of the cockpit windows - a pale looking panel?

 

 

 

Is this picture an original colour one or a B&W that has been colourised?

The question is more out of interest, than anything else.

[Tbolt]

1 hour ago, Toryu said:

@Michael51 Your comment well noted, I have the same sources and am aware of the controversy of the topic.

 

The following photos (the last one from the archive film), however smartly manipulated, show a distinctly different colour than the other OD areas. In my view this is not a faded OD which for same reason has only faded in front of the windscreen. I'm still vouching for a primer that was applied during overhaul. 'A Bit o'Lace' was badly damaged by cannon fire and received replacement control surfaces, port wing panel and other repairs.

 

Cheers, Michael (56)

 

 

 

 

 

 

It does look like heavily faded OD to me, maybe your monitor needs recalibrating 😉 Thomaz' image of the B-17 shows what OD can look like. It does not look like primer and zinc chromate would give too much glare and it's not a tinted ZC either. Can't say I've seen a RAF primer that colour either. The image below is from a video of Lace is OD, although this is from an earlier time, but shows it was OD at that point.

 

I don't see a reason why would they paint it a different colour either. Some aircraft used other colours but they were normal either black or another colour to match a colour scheme on the aircraft. Since it doesn't match another colour ( the aileron and rudder are much fresher OD ) on Lace the most logical colour it would be is OD which is what it looks like.

 

So if it was OD, looks like OD and there's no info to say it was painted another colour, then I would go with faded OD, beacause even if it wasn't, that's what it looks like so you can't really be too far wrong. Modellers painting it yellow must be doing so from poor versions of the available colour images or poorly calibrated screens.

 

 

 

[Phoenix44]

14 hours ago, G.R.Morrison said:

"...one may wonder if any colour in a photograph really looks as it appeared to the eye at the time."

 

Michael51 -- spot-on.

 

Decades ago, on my honeymoon (she knew what she was in for), I photographed the B-17G 'Sally B' at an airshow at Duxford.  Overcast, 'cloudy bright' conditions.  Shot within only a minute or two, same camera, same lens, two different types of color film: in one series, the airplane is definitely 'brownish' green, in the others, much 'greener.'  So, what color was it?  "Yes." 😉 

 

Having been in numerous darkrooms since childhood, I also distrust black & white.  Film type enters the equation, but also developer temperature, and duration. Listening to friends discussing B+W photo interpretation, my wife chimed in, "I can tell you what colour that one was.  Grey."

 

GRM

 

"Ich bin kein 'Experte,' nur Historiker."

Absolutely. Take a photo of an aircraft in 1940 at the same time, angle etc but with two different films, and even if properly processed and printed, the colours will be already be different that day in 1940. Now put the Kodachrome slide in the dark for 70 years and leave the other one out or project it through the bright light of a slide projector quite a lot. Colour films don't even start off identical, let alone how they end up after 70 years and possibly tens of reproductions of reproductions. Or if the processing wasn't quite right so one colour doesn't fix properly. Early versions of Agfacolour used by the Nazis gave wildly different colours of simple things like grass depending on time of day. Colour photos are not reliable at all, unless you know a great deal about the original, e.g. what it was shot on, under what conditions and what has happened to it since.

[Bertie McBoatface]

Paint it the colour that you like best? Just a thought. 🙂

[Ivor Ramsden]

In the museum stores we've got a piece of skinning from B-17G 43-38856 which is painted in a very faded OD which is almost an orange colour and very similar to that in the photo. I am certain that the colour of the anti-glare panel on "A bit o'lace" is faded OD.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Ivor Ramsden

[noelh]

I think it's a good example of even a colour photo being misleading. Like @Michael51 I have Roger Freeman's, The Mighty Eight in Colour. Some of photos of B17s might lead you to believe B17s were  painted in desert camouflage given the fading and reproduction of the photos. 

 

That photo was obviously taken after 'Bit O Lace' was repaired when flak blew off it's port tailplane and riddled the tail fin on April 4th 1945. Possibly post war. So the fading on the anti glare is extreme by then. 

 

Incidentally I'd recommend anyone with an interest in US aircraft in the ETO to acquire a copy of The Mighty Eight in Colour. I constantly refer to it. It's invaluable. Some are available online for the Amazoningly low price of £1.45.😉

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by noelh
Calling Roger Freeman Michael Doh!

[Tbolt]

4 hours ago, noelh said:

I think it's a good example of even a colour photo being misleading. Like @Michael51 I have Michael Freeman's, The Mighty Eight in Colour. Some of photos of B17s might lead you to believe B17s were  painted in desert camouflage given the fading and reproduction of the photos. 

 

That photo was obviously taken after 'Bit O Lace' was repaired when flak blew off it's port tailplane and riddled the tail fin on April 4th 1945. Possibly post war. So the fading on the anti glare is extreme by then. 

 

Incidentally I'd recommend anyone with an interest in US aircraft in the ETO to acquire a copy of The Mighty Eight in Colour. I constantly refer to it. It's invaluable. Some are available online for the Amazoningly low price of £1.45.😉

 

 

Yes  "The Mighty Eight in Colour" is a great book and Roger's "The Mighty Eighth Warpaint & Heraldry" is another nice book which has some good colour pictures and info on colours and markings in, which is worth having.

[Knight_Flyer]

Thanks again for your replies.

 

It sure is turning into an intriguing area of research 🤔 Found some more photos that appear to show "yellow", although it is a good point about colorization.

 

I have found other photos showing OD, only thing is... the engine cowlings are nmf and not painted. Maybe from a different timeframe to the supposedly "yellow" anti glare?

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Knight_Flyer

[Tbolt]

9 hours ago, Knight_Flyer said:

Thanks again for your replies.

 

It sure is turning into an intriguing area of research 🤔 Found some more photos that appear to show "yellow", although it is a good point about colorization.

 

I have found other photos showing OD, only thing is... the engine cowlings are nmf and not painted. Maybe from a different timeframe to the supposedly "yellow" anti glare?

 

 

 

 

They really do look yellow compared to Lace, though in the first photo you can see the difference between the anti-glare and the yellow cowls. The aircraft in the background in the second photo looks like faded OD. 

[noelh]

Those photos simply show extremely faded OD. The middle one in particular is obviously taken in Kingman, Arizona post war. 

 

It's not yellow It's faded OD. But if you want to accurately depict 'Bit o Lace' in the timeframe of the photo the anti glare panel needs to as faded as in the photo.