Which kit to buy to build the 1:72 USAF F-4E from Gulf War?

[KRK4m]

IIRC the 3rd TFW based at Clark AFB in the Philippines deployed 4 F-4Es to the Incirlik base in Turkey during the Desert Shield and Desert Storm operations. I am trying to build such a 1/72 grey F-4E from the Gulf War and three years ago the choice was simple - Hasegawa. But then the long-nosed F-4 from Fine Molds came out - the problem is that the USAF version box clearly anticipates: the early version. So Vietnam-period fit and no slats. Happily there are other boxings available, namely the:

FP-37 F-4EJ

FP-38 F-4EJ KAI

FP-40 F-4EJ KAI 8 TFS

72737 F-4EJ 306th Sq.

72738 F-4EJ KAI TAC 1995

72838 F-4EJ KAI 2020 scheme

72937 F-4EJ 2021 scheme

72938 F-4EJ KAI Last Flight

Which box should I buy so that it doesn't take 10 months to build the USAF F-4E from Gulf War. Or maybe stay with Hesegawa? Or the RoG?

Cheers

Michael

[Giorgio N]

None of the FM kits includes the slatted wing that all USAF F-4Es had by the time of the Gulf War. It is entirely possible that such variant will follow but it's not available from them yet.

This today only leaves the Hasegawa kit as only OOB solution, with the problem that Hasegawa slatted F-4Es are not always easy to find.

RoG's is an F-4F, so features the slatted wing but not the slotted stabilators (also lacks the Tiseo unit but this can be scratchbuilt easily enough). It's also IMHO less accurate than the Hasegawa kit, particularly in the front fuselage and canopy area.

Said that I'm still planning a late F-4E from the Revell kit using spare stabilators from other kits but I'll use the Hasegawa kit for the subjects I'm more interested in

[Giorgio N]

PS: I'm assuming you want a modern, decently accurate and detailed kit.. if not, the old mould Hasegawa kit can still be found and has slatted wings. Italeri also rebox the Esci kit, with all the right features and nice recessed panel lines, but this kit has little internal detail and suffers from some quite visible accuracy issue. A pity as the Italeri rebox IIRC has decals for a grey 3rd TFW aircraft 

[KRK4m]

54 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

PS: I'm assuming you want a modern, decently accurate and detailed kit.. if not, the old mould Hasegawa kit can still be found and has slatted wings. Italeri also rebox the Esci kit, with all the right features and nice recessed panel lines, but this kit has little internal detail and suffers from some quite visible accuracy issue. A pity as the Italeri rebox IIRC has decals for a grey 3rd TFW aircraft 

Thanks, Giorgio, for this idea. It won't be a model for a modelling competition, so it does not have to have 200 parts - 80 is enough as long as the model has nice surface details, sharp edges and recessed panel lines.

About 35 years ago I was building the Esci F-4C and I remember it went together quite well, almost without putty. And what are these accuracy issues that you mention? Can they be corrected easily, or would the surgery have to be very thorough?

Cheers

Michael

[Jabba]

At the moment I am looking at using the Hasegawa kit (already in the stash) when I build my one in the not too distant future.

[Giorgio N]

On 5/9/2022 at 7:32 PM, KRK4m said:

Thanks, Giorgio, for this idea. It won't be a model for a modelling competition, so it does not have to have 200 parts - 80 is enough as long as the model has nice surface details, sharp edges and recessed panel lines.

About 35 years ago I was building the Esci F-4C and I remember it went together quite well, almost without putty. And what are these accuracy issues that you mention? Can they be corrected easily, or would the surgery have to be very thorough?

Cheers

Michael

 

Michael

the Esci kits are quite nice to build, with sharp recessed panel lines and generally good fit. Later AMT reissues were not as sharply moulded and I don't know what Italeri reissues are like since I've not bought one, although I'm tempted by the decal sheet alone,...

The main issue I have with their F-4E is the representation of the intakes on the front fuselage. Have a look at this model, that is sure well built but where the intakes are added the way Esci meant to be:

 

https://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal13/12601-12700/gal12640-F-4-Pomettini/12.shtm

 

Now compare the same area with a real F-4E, like this

 

http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/isaac_gershman/f-4e_various/images/f-4e_various_02_of_16.jpg

 

Not only the intakes are differently shaped, that can be corrected, but the whole area differs, with the fuselage sides flattening under the intakes at the front and the intakes blended into the fuselage at the rear. This problem is the result of Esci trying to use as many parts in common with the other kits in the family so in the end they used the same intake arrangement of the short nosed Phantoms like this

 

http://www.craigcentral.com/models/f-4e/photos/f4c_18.jpg

 

The Fujimi kit suffers from problems in this area too, it is better than Esci's but not great itself, as can be seen in these pictures of an assembled model:

 

https://modelingmadness.com/scott/mod/us/usaf/fujf4e.htm

 

I have not mentioned the Fujimi kit earlier since it's not that easy to find at a decent price.

It should be said that the windscreen area also differs between C/D and E but I've not checked which configuration is represented in the kit... and this is not too noticeable anyway

 

What I described may sound like a minor issue however IMHO it completely changes the look of the front fuselage area. Regarding improving the look, I have an Esci E in the stash and I thought of ways to sort the problem but in the end I've decided to build the kit as a C or D, using a spare radome from another kit. A good thing of the Esci kit is that includes both slotted and non slotted stabilators, my plan is to use the slotted ones on a Revell F-4F kit to have an F-4E.

Of course there are other combinations possible.. for example the Italeri Phantom FG.1 includes slotted stabilators that can be used on the Revell kit while the Revell stabilators can be used on the Italeri one to build an FGR.2.. but that makes sense if you want to build both an F-4E and an FGR.2

[iainpeden]

Giorgio is right about the nose intakes on the Esci Phantom.

That said, if the Hasegawa one is unobtainable, it's the kit I would go for. The kit comes with TISEO, correct tailplanes (stabilators) and slats.

The Italeri boxing of the Esci kit (quite recent) also contains an excellent decal sheet with lots of stencils including the buttons and levers to open the cockpits. (repeated so good for the spares box!)

The old Italeri kit (G/F) has the best slatted wing with the updated lumps and bumps on the wing tips.

The Fujimi E always looked pinched at the front end to me.

The Revell F also has a pinched look and the tip of the fin is a bit too square.

[Hook]

11 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

The main issue I have with their F-4E is the representation of the intakes on the front fuselage

I believe the ESCI E/F kit has the same nose intakes as on their F-4C/J kits. On the real thing these differed between the long and short nosed variants.

 

HTH,

 

Andre

[RAGATIGER]

17 hours ago, iainpeden said:

Giorgio is right about the nose intakes on the Esci Phantom.

That said, if the Hasegawa one is unobtainable, it's the kit I would go for. The kit comes with TISEO, correct tailplanes (stabilators) and slats.

The Italeri boxing of the Esci kit (quite recent) also contains an excellent decal sheet with lots of stencils including the buttons and levers to open the cockpits. (repeated so good for the spares box!)

The old Italeri kit (G/F) has the best slatted wing with the updated lumps and bumps on the wing tips.

The Fujimi E always looked pinched at the front end to me.

The Revell F also has a pinched look and the tip of the fin is a bit too square.

Also anyway you can only use the Esci AIM-7 Sparrow for the AIM-9 Sidewinder needs to be reeplaced (no mayor trouble as Hasegawa kits also don't include weapons of any kind

[iainpeden]

@KRK4m

A couple of random thoughts - both start with the Finemolds F-4E (unslatted/hard wing).

 

The Esci E/F and J/S boxings both come with the underwing actuators and outer wing panel slats as separate pieces; it would be easy to add them to the Finemolds kit (notwithstanding a few other fairly minor mods.) 

 

Or.. I think the old Italeri F/G or S has the best slatted wing of any; I wonder if that could be fitted to the Finemolds Phantom. Probably more work than the first idea. EDIT: both were also issued by Tamiya. (not quite up to their usual standards!

 

If you decide to go down the first route let me know because I'm sure I have some spare slats in the spares box or can get them out of one of the Esci kits in the stash (35!) I've probably got a spare TISEO as well.

 

 

[CharlieGolf2009]

Michael, have you checked the "new" Italeri F-4E? 

 

https://www.super-hobby.com/products/F-4E-F-Phantom-II.html

Edited May 12, 2022 by CharlieGolf2009

[iainpeden]

Worth noting that the Italeri/Esci kit above does not have parts for the ARN-101 fitting on the spine.

[KRK4m]

On 5/11/2022 at 9:03 AM, Giorgio N said:

The Esci kits are quite nice to build, with sharp recessed panel lines and generally good fit. Later AMT reissues were not as sharply moulded and I don't know what Italeri reissues are like since I've not bought one, although I'm tempted by the decal sheet alone,...

The main issue I have with their F-4E is the representation of the intakes on the front fuselage. Not only the intakes are differently shaped, that can be corrected, but the whole area differs, with the fuselage sides flattening under the intakes at the front and the intakes blended into the fuselage at the rear. This problem is the result of Esci trying to use as many parts in common with the other kits in the family so in the end they used the same intake arrangement of the short nosed Phantoms like this

The Fujimi kit suffers from problems in this area too, it is better than Esci's but not great itself ... I have not mentioned the Fujimi kit earlier since it's not that easy to find at a decent price.

It should be said that the windscreen area also differs between C/D and E but I've not checked which configuration is represented in the kit... and this is not too noticeable anyway

What I described may sound like a minor issue however IMHO it completely changes the look of the front fuselage area. Regarding improving the look, I have an Esci E in the stash and I thought of ways to sort the problem but in the end I've decided to build the kit as a C or D, using a spare radome from another kit. A good thing of the Esci kit is that includes both slotted and non slotted stabilators, my plan is to use the slotted ones on a Revell F-4F kit to have an F-4E.

Of course there are other combinations possible.. for example the Italeri Phantom FG.1 includes slotted stabilators that can be used on the Revell kit while the Revell stabilators can be used on the Italeri one to build an FGR.2.. but that makes sense if you want to build both an F-4E and an FGR.2

Giorgio - thank you for the precise explanations. The balance of pros and cons leads me to the latest Italeri kit (Esci rebox).

FM is too expensive to add so many alterations to it, Hasegawa and Fujimi are unbuyable, and Revell (comparable to Esci) has no decals of 3rd TRW during their stay at Incirlik.

And I'm definitely not going to build an FGR.2.  In my tiny display cabinet there is room for at most 12 US jets - how many of them can be Phantoms?

 

On 5/11/2022 at 12:26 PM, iainpeden said:

Giorgio is right about the nose intakes on the Esci Phantom.

That said, if the Hasegawa one is unobtainable, it's the kit I would go for. The kit comes with TISEO, correct tailplanes (stabilators) and slats.

The Italeri boxing of the Esci kit (quite recent) also contains an excellent decal sheet with lots of stencils including the buttons and levers to open the cockpits. (repeated so good for the spares box!)

The old Italeri kit (G/F) has the best slatted wing with the updated lumps and bumps on the wing tips.

The Fujimi E always looked pinched at the front end to me. The Revell F also has a pinched look and the tip of the fin is a bit too square.

 

10 hours ago, iainpeden said:

A couple of random thoughts - both start with the Finemolds F-4E (unslatted/hard wing).

The Esci E/F and J/S boxings both come with the underwing actuators and outer wing panel slats as separate pieces; it would be easy to add them to the Finemolds kit (notwithstanding a few other fairly minor mods.) 

Or.. I think the old Italeri F/G or S has the best slatted wing of any; I wonder if that could be fitted to the Finemolds Phantom. Probably more work than the first idea. EDIT: both were also issued by Tamiya. (not quite up to their usual standards!

If you decide to go down the first route let me know because I'm sure I have some spare slats in the spares box or can get them out of one of the Esci kits in the stash (35!) I've probably got a spare TISEO as well.

Thanks for the offer of these slots, but I think this Phantom is not worth such a sacrifice. I have a spare TISEO too and ARN-101 fitting doesn't look that complicated.

I think I will build it straight from the Italeri 1448 box, and the area of the nose inlets I will reshape myself - after converting a 1/700 Walrus to Loire 130 I think I can do it

 

7 hours ago, CharlieGolf2009 said:

Michael, have you checked the "new" Italeri F-4E? https://www.super-hobby.com/products/F-4E-F-Phantom-II.html

Charlie - I know about its existence but I haven't had it in my hands yet. I will drop by Super Hobby tomorrow - actually they're just 2 miles from my workplace

Cheers

Michael

[iainpeden]

I look forward to seeing it finished.

[Hook]

This Hasegawa F-4G boxing had 3rd TFW/90th TFS decals: 

 

https://www.scalemates.com/it/kits/hasegawa-00954-f-4g-phantom-ii-egypt-i--101141

 

, while this sheet might be worth hunting down as well:

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/aeromaster-72-153-phantom-collection-part-1--174446 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre 

[Pappy]

I would also add that the ejection seats need to be replaced as a minimum, the Italeri (Esci) seats are awful!

 

A pair of resin seats dresses up the cockpit very nicely for only a relatively moderate outlay

 

cheers,

 

Pappy

[RAGATIGER]

Hi there

 

Well now that someone mentioned the F-4G Phantom I just remember about the Testors /Italeri kit yes still most of the parts coming same Esci mould 

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/testors-italeri-687-f-4e-g-phantom-ii--574634

 

This kit include not only the gun nose F-4E but also the Wild Weasel parts (plus some interesting ordenance)

 

To me its specially atractive that the decals include the option for the 57th Fighter Interceptor Squadron deployed in Iceland

 

Regards

 

Armando

[Giorgio N]

5 hours ago, RAGATIGER said:

Hi there

 

Well now that someone mentioned the F-4G Phantom I just remember about the Testors /Italeri kit yes still most of the parts coming same Esci mould 

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/testors-italeri-687-f-4e-g-phantom-ii--574634

 

This kit include not only the gun nose F-4E but also the Wild Weasel parts (plus some interesting ordenance)

 

To me its specially atractive that the decals include the option for the 57th Fighter Interceptor Squadron deployed in Iceland

 

Regards

 

Armando

 

This kit has nothing to do with the Esci mould, it's an older kit with raised panel lines issued by Testors and Italeri and later reboxed by Bilek. 

Said that, this and the Esci kit share some very similar features, that always made me think there was some kind of relation.

One thing these kits have in common is the representation of the cockpit: both kits have cockpits too deep, particularly the rear station. Consolles and instrument panels should be higher in the pit, with the rear panel obstructing the view of the systems operator. 

This eccessive depth explains why the seats in these kits feature very tale bases.

The Fujimi kits have the same cockpit, as the company making the moulds for Fujimi and Esci was the same. Fujimi later rectified the problem with their British Phantom series.

This means that aftermarket seats will need plasticard on the floor to be brought up to the correct level, otherwise they will " sink" in the too deep cockpit 

[Giorgio N]

On 5/12/2022 at 10:01 PM, KRK4m said:

Giorgio - thank you for the precise explanations. The balance of pros and cons leads me to the latest Italeri kit (Esci rebox).

FM is too expensive to add so many alterations to it, Hasegawa and Fujimi are unbuyable, and Revell (comparable to Esci) has no decals of 3rd TRW during their stay at Incirlik.

And I'm definitely not going to build an FGR.2.  In my tiny display cabinet there is room for at most 12 US jets - how many of them can be Phantoms?

 

 

Thanks for the offer of these slots, but I think this Phantom is not worth such a sacrifice. I have a spare TISEO too and ARN-101 fitting doesn't look that complicated.

I think I will build it straight from the Italeri 1448 box, and the area of the nose inlets I will reshape myself - after converting a 1/700 Walrus to Loire 130 I think I can do it

 

Charlie - I know about its existence but I haven't had it in my hands yet. I will drop by Super Hobby tomorrow - actually they're just 2 miles from my workplace

Cheers

Michael

 

Michael, I can sure understand your choice. I'll be interested in seeing how you'll improve the look, the Italeri box features an interesting decal sheet and I've been tempted for a while.. 

 

[iainpeden]

I didn't know Testors had also released the original Italeri F-4E/G (boxed as an F-4F/G by Italeri); those 57th FIS markings were always  good. Interestingly the decal sheet includes a Japanese version - not doable due to the slatted wing. (American only?)

 

@KRK4m - as for your question about how many Phantoms - easy, if you can fit 12 then 12 it is.

 

@Giorgio N The Italeri decal sheets in their recent boxings of the old Esci moulds are both lovely; F4-C/J and F4-E and worth buying just for the sheets.

 

The Hasegawa 1/72 F-4G is also mentioned . Even rarer than the F-4E; last one I saw on e-bay went for £80.

[Hook]

34 minutes ago, iainpeden said:

those 57th FIS markings were always  good.

Indeed. I have these in the Decal Dungeon: 

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/bare-metal-foil-72-3-f-4e-57th-fis-keflavik--1337757

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

 

[Robertone139]

6 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

This kit has nothing to do with the Esci mould, it's an older kit with raised panel lines issued by Testors and Italeri and later reboxed by Bilek. 

Said that, this and the Esci kit share some very similar features, that always made me think there was some kind of relation.

One thing these kits have in common is the representation of the cockpit: both kits have cockpits too deep, particularly the rear station. Consolles and instrument panels should be higher in the pit, with the rear panel obstructing the view of the systems operator. 

This eccessive depth explains why the seats in these kits feature very tale bases.

The Fujimi kits have the same cockpit, as the company making the moulds for Fujimi and Esci was the same. Fujimi later rectified the problem with their British Phantom series.

This means that aftermarket seats will need plasticard on the floor to be brought up to the correct level, otherwise they will " sink" in the too deep cockpit 

As the bottom of the cockpit is the top of the nose gear bay, easiest way is to add a plasticard "ceiling" to the nose gear bay to solve the heigth issue.

I am converting ESCI's F to an HHA F-4E(S), so I don't need the additional parts for the slats, anyone in need it,s just the postage.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Robertone139

[Robertone139]

3 hours ago, Hook said:

Indeed. I have these in the Decal Dungeon: 

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/bare-metal-foil-72-3-f-4e-57th-fis-keflavik--1337757

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

 

Great 1/72 57th FIS decals are available from Euro Decals.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Robertone139
correction

[KRK4m]

6 hours ago, iainpeden said:

 

@KRK4m - as for your question about how many Phantoms - easy, if you can fit 12 then 12 it is.

 

 

If I had under the avatar written: Interest - Phantoms, I would probably build a dozen . But I'm not that specialized.

For me, a dozen American jet fighters are: F-80, F-84, F-86, F-9, F-100, F-104, F-4, F-5, F-15, F-16, F/A-18 and A-4.

And I still feel the lack of F-89, F-102, F-8, A-7 and many more ...

Cheers

Michael

[iainpeden]

5 hours ago, Robertone139 said:

Great 1/72 57th FIS decals are available from Euro Decals.

To do the SEA scheme justice you need the Experts Choice for most and the Eurodecal for the splitter plate decals; the lower checkerboard on fin on the latter is under scale.