RCAF Vampires nose clear panel

[daniele0865]

Hi all,

Searching for photos of the RCAF Vampire with the bat noseart included in the Airfix decals, I have discovered that many RCAF Vampires (including the subject of my research) had a clear insert in the nose panel. It seems that the clear panel is connected to the introduction of some sort of DF or radio compass in the 50's. In fact in some photos on the web a sort of DF loop is visible under the clear panel. Can anyone provide photos or drawings of what can be seen under the clear panel?

Daniele

[tweeky]

I know the CF18's have a clear panel in the nose, it contains a light for visual identification, wonder if it the same reasoning ?  

[daniele0865]

Here: https://www.silverhawkauthor.com/post/canadian-warplanes-6-jets-de-havilland-dh-100-vampire

you can find a lot of pics of Vampires with the clear panel, but noone is close enough to see clearly what's inside.

[Tony Edmundson]

3 hours ago, tweeky said:

I know the CF18's have a clear panel in the nose, it contains a light for visual identification, wonder if it the same reasoning ?  

not at all,   the CF-18 had a sideways night ID light, the Vampire's panel is on top of the nose for a DF loop(or whatever).

 

Tony

[Sabrejet]

I think it's similar to the ADF loop antenna installed in F-86s (domed glass item aft of the seat). It was similarly-mounted 'under glass' on RAAF Meteors in Korea.

[Scott Hemsley]

Quote

Searching for photos of the RCAF Vampire with the bat noseart included in the Airfix decals,

daniele0865, what you're searching for are photos of 442 Sqn. (RCAF aux.) Vampire III's. I suggest starting with a Google search, but ensure the image you choose is a Vampire III and not a restored T.55 or similar (Googling 442 Sqn. images shows at least one flying around in bogus 442 Sqn. markings).  

 

Scott

[daniele0865]

Scott,

I found several photos of RAAF Vampire III with bat nose, including one of 17018, the aircraft portrayed by Airfix, but I couldn't find detail photos of the nose showing the ADF apparatus under the clear panel. I'd like to build the Airfix kit with the bat noseart scratchbuilding the clear panel and what can be seen under it, but I'd like to have at least a photo or a drawing of the ADF box and loop, or whatever is under the clear panel in the nose bay. I also found photos of restored Vampires with the bat nose, but they are different marks or with a solid nose panel. There is a restored Vampire III at the Canada Aviation and Space Museum: it has the clear panel, but from the photo I found it seems that anything under the nose panel has been removed.

By the way, was anything similar present on any RAF Vampire III?

https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/60d3c6d0e106af90561564f7/60fbd939ede1e21c6a8e634e_de-Havilland-Vampire--Mike-Kaehler.jpeg

[Tony Edmundson]

these may (or may not) help;

 

[daniele0865]

Thank you Tony, of course they help!

[dogsbody]

This one is at the Reynolds Museum, at Wetaskiwin, Alberta.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[daniele0865]

Thank you Chris. Here the clear panel it's been painted over in grey, it seems.

[Patrick Martin]

    Just waiting for this topic to come up.

    This is where the Airfix was 'out'.  I did offer my services at Telford.  Special Hobby got it right in their 1/72 Vampire kit.  There were at least two complete sets of bat noses over the years.  The window/band was installed well before the bat nose came along.  The window was added because the ADF loop was installed in the nose and just did not work well through the metal.  It had been installed sometime (we think) in 1949 but they can be seen in photos of Operation Sweebriar during 1950.  The real guy to talk to on all of this is Jerry Vernon (the one and only true RCAF historian) , who kept notes on two tours with 442/443....  his notes to me on the subject are as follows:

 

"  Remembering the history…..the first 4 Mustangs arrived at 442 in the late Fall of 1950 (I was there on my bicycle!!).  More arrived in the early Spring of 1951. The Vampires were removed from 442 and used to form new RCAF pre-Sabre fighter squadrons and for Chatham OTU. 

    They had unpainted noses when they first arrived in the Spring of 1948, but I don’t think for too long.  See photo in 442 book, which I think you have.

    In the 1940s, the Vampires had hand-painted noses; and I don’t think any two were the same.  The ears were all different sizes, eyes and noses were different, and maybe the teeth too.  Many different colours were used.  Coded “BU”:  BU-V, BU-W, BU-X, BU-Y, BU-Z, had “City of Vancouver Squadron” on  the booms.  I have copies of several 1949 photos at an air show in Spokane showing nose closeups.

    There is a good article in an old Radom Thoughts (I have a copy), by Rick Johnson I think (Hangar Bookshelf squadron books guy), but I think it is mostly about scheme No. 1.

    When they returned in 1952, they were still coded “BU” with new-painted noses….not sure if any of them were the same 4 aircraft.  Ended up with 8 aircraft.  The new nose paint, I think, was still hand-painted but was a lot simpler and with a lot less colours.  At one point, it may have been changed from BU+letters to BU+123(??).   That’s when I was there as an AC1…and your dad was there too??  See his photos with the Globemaster in 1953.

    At some point the “SL” code came in and “Royal Canadian Air Force” on the booms.  May have also been SL+123 for a while??  I have several photos from 1953 Summer Camp at Paine Field.  Has “last 3” on the nose and small format ”SL” on the booms by then.

    Later new nose paint was much simpler, only 2 or 3 colours, probably identical images on aircraft and could be sprayed on with a template rather than hand-painted.  But compare 012, 018 and 074 and you will see differences in ear centres, eyes and teeth.  I’m damn sure there was no orange then, but there was orange, green, etc. on scheme No. 1.

    The paint job that was on the one at Langley was not right!!  The guy claimed he worked there and had been involved in painting them, but it was a combination of schemes and looked more like Haida (local Indigenous Tribe/Band) art!!

dates:

  13 Jun 49: Letter refers to trial Radio Compass installation in 2 Vampires of 410 Squadron.  Amend the trial to cover 4 aircraft. 

  15 Nov 49: Privy Council approves $ 99,250 for DeHavilland Canada to install Lear ARC-10R Radio Compass in 79 Vampire aircraft….probably all they had left by then!!

  24 Jul  51: Air Ministry interested in RCAF opinion of the Lear Radio Compass in Vampire aircraft.

  So…trial installation in 4 aircraft in the Summer of 1949 and did all of them in 1949/50.   “

 

    My father was also there at the time and did take photos as well.  I have yet to invest the time on how to post photos here.  So if anyone is really keen on the subject, (or any other specific aircraft) send me a private note with which aircraft (even by serial) or scheme and I  send you whatever you need.  I did cover all this sort of 'stuff' in a couple of finish and markings books complete, with photos and drawings (shameless plug); ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE, Aircraft Finish and Markings, 1947 - 1968, Vol.1 & 2 (ask for them at the Aviation Bookshop event).  Whoever did the research for the Special Hobby kit got it spot on.  So often I end up laughing aloud when I see the inaccurate marijuana look alike maple-leaf knock off roundels.  

    Patrick Martin

 

 

[Tony Edmundson]

8 hours ago, daniele0865 said:

Thank you Chris. Here the clear panel it's been painted over in grey, it seems.

a couple more for your project;

 

[daniele0865]

7 hours ago, Patrick Martin said:

Just waiting for this topic to come up.

    This is where the Airfix was 'out'.  I did offer

Very interesting and detailed explanation, Martin. Apart from the missing clear panel are Airfix 018 bat nose decals also wrong for the colors?

[Tony Edmundson]

22 minutes ago, daniele0865 said:

Very interesting and detailed explanation, Martin. Apart from the missing clear panel are Airfix 018 bat nose decals also wrong for the colors?

Yes, the yellow is suspect, should be white

 

Tony

[daniele0865]

2 hours ago, Tony Edmundson said:

Yes, the yellow is suspect, should be white

 

Tony

From this photo it seems it could be yellow or orange. Maybe? 

[Tony Edmundson]

5 hours ago, daniele0865 said:

From this photo it seems it could be yellow or orange. Maybe? 

Yes, I’ve seen that photo.  It is not the subject of the decal sheet, and not a very good quality image.  I am in the ‘white’ camp.

 

Tony

[daniele0865]

Tony, I agree with you, It maight be only the effect of the poor photo quality.

Interestingly Above&Below Graphics from Canada makes the decals for 012, 031, 062 and 074 with white eyes contour, but makes the decals for 018 in yellow: https://www.abovebelow.ca/product/2021-dehavilland-vampire-s-n-17018-442-f-sqn-1954-/711?cp=true&sa=false&sbp=false&q=false&category_id=5

Strage enough, isn't it?

[Tony Edmundson]

I may ask Bill Burns of Canmilair about the research into the ‘yellow’ use on the 442 bats😎

Edited May 10, 2022 by Tony Edmundson

[Britman]

On 5/9/2022 at 6:55 PM, dogsbody said:

This one is at the Reynolds Museum, at Wetaskiwin, Alberta.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

A very nice museum. It looks a little different to 2001.

 

Keith

[daniele0865]

19 minutes ago, Tony Edmundson said:

I may ask Bill Burns of Canmilair

It would be interesting to know.

I have compared the Above&Below decals with the only 018 photo I have found and it seems that the 018 on the cockpit side is a different font: Airfix decals in this case appear to be more correct.

Or the Above&Below decals portray the aircraft in a different time than the photo I have.

[Tony Edmundson]

Bill Burns of Canmilair  has been made aware and will inquire with Above&Below to get to the bottom of this in regards to research

 

Tony

[dogsbody]

1 hour ago, Britman said:

A very nice museum. It looks a little different to 2001.

 

Keith

 

I was there in '08.

 

 

 

Chris

[daniele0865]

On 5/10/2022 at 10:22 PM, Tony Edmundson said:

Bill Burns of Canmilair  has been made aware and will inquire with Above&Below

Any news from Bill?

[bobmig]

You may find this interesting. It's from the cover of an old (Nov. 1970) issue of IPMS Canada's magazine, RT. The author, H. Robert Hall, was an aircraft refinisher in the RCAF. The cover comment reads:

 

    "The vampire aircraft was of composite construction. The fuselage was a sandwich affair of ply and balsa laminations over which a linen covering was doped, thereby pre­senting a seamless surface finish. The tail booms, wings and empennage were of dural, and the quality of the rivetting and general metal work was quite crude. As a result, many wide and un-aerodynamic seams and gaps were present. In order to rectify this, a layer of aluminium paste was applied to all metal areas, in some cases to a thickness of 3/16". This paste filler was re-enforced along the leading edge of the wing with a strip of doped linen. Next came a liberal use of sandpaper and a final coat of aluminium lacquer. 

    "All markings, including the anti-glare panel on the nose, were tn gloss lacquer. The reason for this rather strange state of affairs was that the author was an apprentice with the squadron at the time, and to me, black was just black!

    "The red area on the nose met with the aluminium in a soft line with a three-inch over­ lap. It should be mentioned that the bat face varied slightly from a/c to a/c, occasion­ally even in the number of teeth. These a/c got a lot of rough usage and were repaint­ed at least once a year, so without photographic evidence, who's to say you're wrong for any specific year as long as you follow the general scheme. 
    "All markings on the booms and the vertical tails were carried on one (the outboard) side only. An earlier scheme had fin flashes on both sides of the vertical tail. Cockpit interiors were light green with flat black instrument panels, and the seat was covered with dark green leather. Toward the end of their careers, all the stencilling on these aircraft became overpainted, as all the bods knew where everything was!"