Under table sales at shows

[Julien]

21 minutes ago, 3DStewart said:

Clubs paying for tables.  Again, difficult, but I can see the need to discourage clubs asking for lavish table space that isn't really justified by the quality of the display.  We debated this at last week's club AGM and a motion was passed that the committee does NOT book additional paid for tables, unless in exceptional circumstances which must be supported by members in advance.  Partly this is a response to financial pressures and partly because less members seem to want to display at shows.

I would be interested to know if the last two points about club financial pressures and dwindling exhibitor enthusiasm are apparent in other clubs. If they are then expect the show scene to evolve quite rapidly.

 

Well Telford are charging from this year.  That aside we were finding it harder to get people to shows, will see now post covid if that remains the same.  There will be other financial pressures, I mean its a 4 hour round trip to MK, increasing price of fuel etc, even car sharing. For us thats about the max travel unless its combined with other things, and that then pushes the costs up. We are luck in our club to have OK finances so paying for a few extra tables is not an issue. 

 

I swa mention of Model Railway clubs, maybe going forward clubs could co-host with others like this to share costs/revenue. I know in Ipswich we have been part of a combined event with a local transport museum and a couple of railway clubs and its been a success for all.

[pigsty]

29 minutes ago, 3DStewart said:

I would be interested to know if the last two points about club financial pressures and dwindling exhibitor enthusiasm are apparent in other clubs

I can only speak for a couple, but my experience of this and so many other things is that any group has a core of people who take part in everything, and another crowd who come along but don't really get involved that strongly.  This has been much the same, with much the same people, all the time I've been attending shows - but there's no sign of the enthusiasm falling away yet.

 

Telford, incidentally, is only half-charging.  The first two tables are free to participating clubs and SIGs - you get a six-foot frontage, double depth.  More than that (the traditional twelve-foot frontage) will be paid for.  My Kent mob will almost certainly spring for the extra tables, and we're happy to on the grounds that a fiver for each one spread over the five members you need to affiliate to IPMS is a pound a day each, which isn't a lot.  And we've been happy to buy extra space before - we took it up at Modelkraft after we were perched up on the balcony one year with no room, and it got us a handy little corner where we didn't have people brushing past and knocking things over.

[Cammer625]

Not involved in shows other than enjoying them - just make everyone pay an entrance fee.  If you’re selling, then you pay for a table.  I’m surprised that show organisers allow ‘clubs’ to sell from their displays - one would imagine that their insurers probably wouldn’t like that. I’ve only been to shows where if you sell, you buy a table (or there is a swap meet to sell - and no trader would sell there as no one in there would ever pay retail price!).  Seems to be fair all round??

[Duncan B]

21 hours ago, JohnT said:

As for under the table selling I suspect the problem only appears when it tips over from casual limited selling of obviously unloved elderly stash queens into an off site shop!  When it gets to the latter the traders have a valid point where they pay the show for a stall pitch and there is someone doing the same as a freebie

 

This is the crux of the matter for most Traders. Ask Traders if they are bothered about the under table selling of old stash and I'm sure that most would say it doesn't bother them in the slightest or has minimal effect on their trading. Some Traders will argue that there is only so much money to go around and if an individual spends their 'pocket money' on something from under a table then they can't spend it again with a Trader, which is all fair enough to a point. However I don't hold with this idea completely as some modellers will sell their older kits and then go and buy something from a Trader's stall which is a win for both parties and someone else who is buying a £5 secondhand kit from under a table might never have been in the market for a £xxx.xx top of the range Wingnut wonder kit anyway. I don't sell second hand kits but suspect that even the Traders that do probably don't object because, as others have already said, they will benefit most by grabbing those kits up early and selling them on (I don't have the 'whole picture' with regards to second hand kit sales so could be totally wrong on that).  What does bother most Traders are the very few clubs/individuals who are obviously selling brand new kits without the overheads (or put another way, without financially supporting the Host Club's show). There are a couple of simple things that Host Clubs could do to control this type of (commercial) under table sales. Firstly the Hosts can completely ban all under table sales which affects everyone and while probably being the easiest method to manage causes the most resentment as the vast majority of under table sales are of old stash queens. The Hosts could put a limit on how much can be sold from under a table and could ask for excess to be removed or ask for payment of a trading fee if the limit is exceeded (just as Traders have to buy a specific pitch and will have to pay extra if they want more space on the day). Most importantly the Hosts need to be upfront to everyone at time of booking tables as to what their policy is with regards to under table sales and then that way Clubs, traders and individuals can decide in advance whether they want to attend or not.

 

I have to agree with Jamie that Model Shows, in particular provincial club shows, are not the cash cow for Traders that many think they are (particularly in 2018/19 when everyone seemed to have (pre-)Brexit jitters). I know from my own experience that there is a law of diminishing returns when it comes to attending model shows that are not within a day's return travelling distance. Obviously being based where I am has a huge impact on the number of shows that I can attend without the need for overnight accommodation but I am also aware that attending a small model show within that distance can quite often be a complete was of time, effort and money too. Travelling to a larger show further away can result in more sales but the costs increase too. Many of you will remember a Scottish Trader who used to appear at almost every show going, ultimately he was losing so much money due to the overheads he had to give up trading completely (and is now much happier for it by the way). 

 

The subject of asking additional members of Clubs who are displaying to pay an entry fee is sensible in my opinion. I can remember attending shows with a Club and never seeing some of the other guys that got in for free other than when they came to drop their bags of goodies off for those of us behind the tables to look after!

 

Duncan B

 

 

[bootneck]

36 minutes ago, Duncan B said:

 

............as some modellers will sell their older kits and then go and buy something from a Trader's stall which is a win for both parties

That is exactly my thinking.   Many of us don't have the ready funds to buy what we want at shows; therefore, we have to raid the stash in order to sell and get the funds that way.   I tend to go to shows with very little cash, but with a good selection of kits to sell.  Once sold, I promptly dash off to the traders to get what I actually want; plus a few others if I've made enough from sales.   The plan is to arrive with little money and leave with none!

 

Mike

[KITCAT]

One point that is'nt given much prominence is that there are too many shows. Anyway the grapevine is working and soon the moaning traders will be unmasked. As for under the table sales this is surely a question of degree and there is always one or two who will over do it on a consistent basis. 

If traders are unhappy then don't book space at shows and that may force the issue but I will still buy at my LMS who also buys surplus stash from me and I buy from the bargain boxes it's a roundabout that seems to work.

There is a paucity of shows along the M62 corridor but modelling goes on.

As for paying to get in I have said in previous posts that people would baulk at paying a realistic amount but there has to be a levelling up.

[bentwaters81tfw]

Interesting thoughts about entrance fees.

MK charged punters £10 or £5 for wrinklies. Some members here moaned, but as were were packing up, the football fans were arriving for the evening match.

I have no idea how much a match ticket, or a season ticket is - never mind those who travel to all the away matches. (For those who care - )

https://www.mkdons.com/tickets/ticket-prices/

 

£10 for a big model show? or £20 ish for Telford if you are not an IPMS member? And that's for all day, or both days even, not 90 minutes of watching 22 blokes kick a pig's bladder.

Come on guys, get real. You couldn't even get 2 pints of beer at MK for a tenner yesterday.

[3DStewart]

1 hour ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

£10 for a big model show? or £20 ish for Telford if you are not an IPMS member? And that's for all day, or both days even, not 90 minutes of watching 22 blokes kick a pig's bladder.

Come on guys, get real. You couldn't even get 2 pints of beer at MK for a tenner yesterday.

 

Comparing model shows with professional football matches is like comparing apples with radiator hoses!

By way of balance, there are plenty of day long activities I enjoy that I can do for nothing, which makes £10 look very expensive.

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by 3DStewart

[Filler]

I don't have a problem paying a few quid to get in to a show - although the chance would be a fine thing around here!!!! Thank you Bolton and Huddersfield.

 

As a punter and not a club member, the under the table thing is part of the attraction of shows as there is always the hope you might pick up a nice bargain of something a bit less common. But a no UTT stuff rule wouldn't stop me going, as my primary motivation for going to shows is that they're the nearest thing we have now to a bricks and mortar model shop. Lovely to pick up a variety of paints and tools and maybe a kit or two without clocking up 10, 20, 30 quid in post and packaging charges.

[Paul J]

What I have done in the past at shows is to donate a few of my 'under the table items' to the organisers who put them in their tombola or raffle for a charity. This hopefully appeases any trader. Every one is happy.

.

[spruecutter96]

On 5/8/2022 at 9:33 AM, Duncan B said:

Many of you will remember a Scottish Trader who used to appear at almost every show going, ultimately he was losing so much money due to the overheads he had to give up trading completely (and is now much happier for it by the way). 

I think I know the trader you mean. He told me just before he quit trading that he was forced to do so by a new job, with a lot of weekend working. I often wondered if it was really worth his while to trade at shows in England, but he was a regular attendee in the South-East. 

Cheers.

Chris.  

[Duncan B]

1 hour ago, spruecutter96 said:

I think I know the trader you mean. He told me just before he quit trading that he was forced to do so by a new job, with a lot of weekend working. I often wondered if it was really worth his while to trade at shows in England, but he was a regular attendee in the South-East. 

Cheers.

Chris.  

I think you are on the right track. The new job was brought on by a change of circumstances and because the trading was becoming more difficult. In the years prior to 2018 I think he was probably doing ok but we all started to see a downturn in sales as folk started to worry about the B word. Certainly 2019 was a washout for many shows that had previously been worth the extra travelling but being so reliant on attending shows he was stuck in a difficult situation with rising costs and falling revenue while not wanting to let the various show organisers down. Of course he wasn't alone in that, I would travel down as far as Driffield but it's just not viable for me now even though it's a great show run by great folk (as all shows are).

 

Duncan B

[Adam Poultney]

Don't know if it's already been mentioned but without those kit sales, that's one less incentive to attend a show. 

[Procopius]

On 5/7/2022 at 5:24 AM, spruecutter96 said:

Young people see the amazing quality of the builds at shows and they aspire to produce similar results. The model-making community is only getting older and it's numbers are likely dwindling due to ill-health, poor eyesight due to ageing and - let's face it - the fact that some its practitioners are no longer around (to put it bluntly). Personally, I believe that the falling numbers are NOT being filled up by the younger generations. I've seen the argument that we are living in a "golden age" of model-production (which I agree with). The issue is, I reckon a lot of these new, exotic kits are simply not selling in large numbers. 

 

Every show that gets cancelled is a blow to our hobby. Anything that promotes model-making has to be nurtured and encouraged. Without shows, model-making will be pushed even further into the "niche" past-time it already is. 

 

 

Some of the more popular model building videos on YouTube have over a million views; even assuming each person viewed the video a hundred times, that's still substantially more people than attend probably every model show in the United Kingdom (in 2017, there were 10,000 attendees to SMW) in an entire year. A good year. The internet operates at scale no in-person event can compete with. I do social media for a professional association that was heavily invested in in-person meetings because they believed that's how people network and make connections, and we've had to learn the same thing. It simply isn't how people make those connections anymore. It's fun to go to shows and I loved going to SMW 2019 with my friends, but shows are now the preserve of ultrafans; they are not how people discover or come to scale modelling.

[Circloy]

On 08/05/2022 at 06:59, Cammer625 said:

Not involved in shows other than enjoying them - just make everyone pay an entrance fee.  If you’re selling, then you pay for a table.  I’m surprised that show organisers allow ‘clubs’ to sell from their displays - one would imagine that their insurers probably wouldn’t like that. I’ve only been to shows where if you sell, you buy a table (or there is a swap meet to sell - and no trader would sell there as no one in there would ever pay retail price!).  Seems to be fair all round??

Don't think anyone would disagree with clubs & SIGs that are displaying at a show to have a number of free passes however the number needs to be reasonable after all how many seats can you fit, comfortably behind a six foot table?

 

On the point of insurance wasn't one of the reasons IPMS gave for the kitswap is that it reduced their liability in case of accident & injury?  

[pigsty]

10 minutes ago, Circloy said:

after all how many seats can you fit, comfortably behind a six foot table?

More than most shows give you ...

[3DStewart]

3 hours ago, Procopius said:

Some of the more popular model building videos on YouTube have over a million views;

 

Are you sure?  That link is dud.

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by 3DStewart

[Procopius]

Just now, 3DStewart said:

 

Are you sure?  That link is dud.

 

 

 

Try this one?

[Duncan B]

23 hours ago, KITCAT said:

One point that is'nt given much prominence is that there are too many shows. Anyway the grapevine is working and soon the moaning traders will be unmasked. As for under the table sales this is surely a question of degree and there is always one or two who will over do it on a consistent basis. 

If traders are unhappy then don't book space at shows and that may force the issue but I will still buy at my LMS who also buys surplus stash from me and I buy from the bargain boxes it's a roundabout that seems to work.

There is a paucity of shows along the M62 corridor but modelling goes on.

As for paying to get in I have said in previous posts that people would baulk at paying a realistic amount but there has to be a levelling up.

 

I think you are quite right about the number of shows, in fact before the start of Covid there was quite a lively debate going on about whether there were too many (and then there were none!). It's probably a regional issue as there are not too many shows in Scotland that I can think of but on at least one weekend in 2019 I know there were 2 shows taking place within 50 miles of each other in the midlands which caused a bit of a shouting match on Facebook. There were other weekends when there was a show on the Saturday and another on the Sunday.

Traders are already turning down shows. I've turned down 4 or 5 this year and I know of one Trader who has just announced (on the Traders FB page) that he will not be attending any more shows at all. Both our reasons for not attending are not related to any grievances or contentions but due to changes in circumstances since the pre-covid world and that shows have become less important in the grand scheme of things (Traders had to survive for 2 years without any shows and have either found ways of doing that or have stopped trading). There will always be other Traders who will turn up so I don't foresee the demise of Model Shows due to lack of Traders but they might become a bit like the modern High street with the same shops wherever you go.

 

15 hours ago, Adam Poultney said:

Don't know if it's already been mentioned but with those industrial kit sales, that's one less incentive for Traders to attend a show. 

 

It swings both ways!

 

Duncan B

[spruecutter96]

To be honest, the presence of UTT sales at a show won't make that much difference to how successful traders are at a particular show. A MUCH more important factor is that many of the larger shows are now heavily "over-traded". I was selling at the Milton Keynes show on Sunday and the event seemed to have more traders than it could really handle. I believe there were around 42 traders at MK (OK- not every trader was selling kits, but you get my point). 

 

How do decide which traders attend your show and which to exclude? Obviously, there is no fair and reasonable way to control that aspect.... so it's back to square one.  

 

This debate could continue for a very long time. 

 

Chris. 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I'm just back from ScotNats at Perth, and definitely have some more thoughts on this. @KITCAT I don't need "unmasked", I've been more than happy to be open and honest about this.

 

Under table sales and complaints about them are a symptom, not the crux of the issue.

 

If shows were considered like a competently managed business, serious soul searching would be taking place covering some fundamentals.

 

Currently there's pretty limited overlap between the groups of people paying and the groups of people it's designed for.

 

I believe many shows will fall by the wayside in the near future, potentially including some of the bigger ones, because it seems to me that the only people who are truly happy with the form and format of them are the same ones who stamp their little feeties and warn that they won't attend any more if they have to pay a sensible sum of money to get in.

 

There are substantial costs. There are just the same core people at most shows. The specialist traders have mostly all concluded it's a waste of their time and money. The general traders of new kits all have the same stock from the same UK distributors and are competing for the same customer who really needs the latest Whateveritis kit from Wherever. The public walk in in small numbers, do two laps and walk out bored and unentertained.

 

 

People need to ask "Is there really a market for this show?", and I deliberately choose the word Market in a business sense rather than Demand because we can already see that people demand it but that's not the same as people who want to pay for it to happen.

 

If there isn't a worthwhile body of people who want it to happen and are willing to put their money where their mouth is then very soon they won't happen.

 

I've learned yesterday how much IPMS UK lost at Telford last November, and I had the figures for ScotNats as of yesterday early afternoon which was about 1/3rd of what they needed, and the afternoon yesterday and all of today was dead. If they've broke even I'll be amazed.

 

It's unsustainable as it stands, and the issue will be forced to come to a head sooner rather than later for many shows.

[Colin @ Freightdog Models]

I've been trading at shows for eighteen years now and personally I love under tables sales, where I can pick up a bargain or something I've not seen in ages. I buy these for my (ever expanding) stash, not for future stock. I can understand why second hand kit traders don't like them, incidentally as a trader I've had other traders buy items from me at the beginning of a show and mark them up on their own stands, its not just under table bargains that some traders go for.   

 

I have not traded since Covid, but have a couple of smaller shows coming up in June and July. These will effectively be social events for me, I expect to break even at best. Not the best business model I know, but Freightdog is only part time for me now and I want to attend those shows anyway so I might as well bring some stock along. 

 

I briefly attended the Southdowns show and caught up with a few trader friends, I decided the day before not to go to MK as a visitor partly when I heard there were no under table sales, but more so that with the four hour round trip I couldn't justify the fuel expense, so I did a 45 min drive to Worthing the day before instead.  I had previously decided not to trade at MK as the tables were quite pricey and my one previous attendance in the same venue had not made me any profit.

 

I didn't trade at Telford last November, I planned to visit and enjoy the show, just as well I didn't plan to trade as two days before my son came down with Covid and I had to cancel just in case I had it, I didn't get it in the end.

 

This November I will be trading again at Scale Modelworld, with a pitch twice as big as usual, and hopefully lots of new stuff to promote. I suspect it will be more PR than profit, but I live in hope!

 

Thanks,

Colin