Under table sales at shows

[Julien]

This topic has surfaced in the show thread for Milton Keynes as the club have banned under the table sales at the show.

 

The reason stated for this is because traders dont like it, presumably they think it takes money away from them.  Now I know myself if I sell a few kits that money does not go home with me but gets spent. I also have seen a few under the table sales that clearly are not people just moving kits along, it trading in all but name only.

 

I really think instead of just banning all sales that clubs maybe police this a bit better as I know a couple of shows where this was brought up (pre covid) and it was just ignored by the club running th eshow and this did annoy the traders there, quite understandably.

 

As for traders providing the funds for the show wtc, perhaps we want to look at what IPMS is doing and charge a small fee for clubs attending. You are not telling me that a club attending cant find a few ££ for the tables to help things out if needed?

 

Julien

[brianthemodeller]

I think we also need to consider the H&S  aspects. If the aisles between display tables are a bit narrow it isn’t a great idea to be encouraging people, often with backpacks etc, to be kneeling down to rummage through boxes. I would have thought a better idea would be a dedicated area where clubs can sell stuff for a small fee.

[Tim R-T-C]

Personally I think it often looks very scruffy - you have a nicely laid out display table then piled up in front are stacks of decaying old kit boxes.

 

Perhaps the solution is to let clubs who want to sell, rent an adjacent small table for 2nd hand sales, so the organisers get some additional revenue and it keeps boxes off the floor.

[bentwaters81tfw]

My modelling budget is limited, and my stash is more than adequate. I will move on kits at shows, but if they don't sell, I don't buy either, so traders are potentially losing out. Apart from that, traders rifle through the kits before the doors are open, often when we are trying to set up, getting in the way, then re list them on their tables at a mark up. They get a chunk of their stock at bargain prices off the punters, then complain.

Sorry but that doesn't wash.

[Duncan B]

10 hours ago, Julien said:

This topic has surfaced in the show thread for Milton Keynes as the club have banned under the table sales at the show.

 

The reason stated for this is because traders dont like it, presumably they think it takes money away from them.  Now I know myself if I sell a few kits that money does not go home with me but gets spent. I also have seen a few under the table sales that clearly are not people just moving kits along, it trading in all but name only.

 

I really think instead of just banning all sales that clubs maybe police this a bit better as I know a couple of shows where this was brought up (pre covid) and it was just ignored by the club running th eshow and this did annoy the traders there, quite understandably.

 

As for traders providing the funds for the show wtc, perhaps we want to look at what IPMS is doing and charge a small fee for clubs attending. You are not telling me that a club attending cant find a few ££ for the tables to help things out if needed?

 

Julien

It's a thorny subject for all involved but has only really come about because there are a very small minority of Clubs (a minority of possibly only one!) who seem to sell on industrial levels. One in particular which I will not name is notorious for it and I have witnessed them sitting behind 18ft of tables jam packed with "stock" selling brand new released kits that the UK Importer had only received earlier in that particular week, that's not selling off old kits from your stash type activity.

I don't have a problem with reasonable under table sales, why shouldn't folk sell off their older, unloved stash queens but there has to be a distinction between selling your old stash and having a Trade account at Creative and flogging off brand new kits right under Traders noses while not paying your way (or declaring it to the Tax Man?).

In short, if the ban on under table sales extends to other shows, don't blame the bon fide traders that have paid to be there, go and ask IPMS XXXXXXXXX "Ltd" what their game is as they are the ones spoiling it for everyone?

I thought the statement from MK was well put.

 

Duncan B

[spruecutter96]

10 hours ago, Julien said:

The reason stated for this is because traders dont like it, presumably they think it takes money away from them.

This argument doesn't hold much water, to be fair. If you ask 100 modellers what they currently want to buy, you are likely to get 99 very different answers. The argument would only really stand up if modellers all had exactly the same tastes and want-lists. And then you factor in the impluse-buying and "Ohh, that would look really cool in my display cabinet..." spur-of-the-moment decision making we are all very prone to.... Personally, I haven't bought a kit at "list-price" for many years. 

 

Also, banning under-the-table sales will actually harm second-hand kit traders revenue, as a lot of their stock comes from sweeping up bargains from under club's tables, in the first hour of the show.

 

Personally, I think Milton Keynes' action will make for a significantly less interesting and enjoyable show. I very much hope that they will allow under-the-table sales back again in 2023. 

 

Cheers.

 

Chris. 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Agree with Duncan. Let's be clear there is complicit behaviours with some shows and it's no exaggeration at all that one midlands based club has a member with a Creative Models trade account who's selling new stock in quantity from the club table. It's against the Ts & Cs for virtually all shows because people trading are obligated to provide proof of public liability insurance, and as Duncan mentioned trading without being a registered business will see that individual's life being made a misery (and rightly so?) as soon as anyone tips off HMRC. I've seen mechanics pursued and defeated for the occasional "homer" that's harder to prove than photographic evidence of selling a crate full of brand new kits from a club table and Creative Models (because the individual lacks the intelligence to keep his mouth shut about where they come from - not that it's difficult for the rest of the companies present to figure out) having proof of supply to him.

 

Traders don't object to a kitswap at shows.

 

All that said, I'm on record already for expressing my view that shows funded almost entirely by traders is a flawed model that won't last much longer for most shows, so getting clubs and club members used to the idea of paying for their day out won't be a bad thing. Big shows with good sales potential will always attract some traders. Small-medium shows really aren't very compelling to traders - especially specialist ones.

[Julien]

Agree with both @Duncan B and @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies about the blatant trading under the tables as everyone must see this. Also Jamie you do have a valid point about sustainability, even IPMS see this, people will drop £60+ on a kit but object to paying £3-5 for entry? 

 

@spruecutter96 I hope you are not right about a less enjoyable show , I fear it might though. You have a valid point about about 2nd hand traders, as they can be seen going through the boxes. 

 

An interesting debate going forward I think.

 

Julien

[spruecutter96]

50 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

getting clubs and club members used to the idea of paying for their day out won't be a bad thing.

Good luck to anyone who tries introducing club table-fees, particularly at the smaller shows. Club-members are generally very accustomed to not having to pay and - if charges are introduced - it will cause a LOT of resentment, IMHO. If folks have not been charged historically, then introducing even tiny fees will provoke ill feeling. I'm sure that club-members would consider their free-time, petrol- and food-costs to be enough of a commitment, as it is. Obviously, they get all the benefits of attending a model-show, so the equation definitely works both ways.       

 

I could see it causing some clubs to simply refuse to attend shows if charged and that will have a bad effect on both traders and show-organizers.  What's the solution here? To be honest, I don't know...

 

Cheers. 

 

Chris. 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

10 minutes ago, spruecutter96 said:

Good luck to anyone who tries introducing club table-fees, particularly at the smaller shows. Club-members are generally very accustomed to not having to pay and - if charges are introduced - it will cause a LOT of resentment, IMHO. If folks have not been charged historically, then introducing even tiny fees will provoke ill feeling. I'm sure that club-members would consider their free-time, petrol- and food-costs to be enough of a commitment, as it is. Obviously, they get all the benefits of attending a model-show, so the equation definitely works both ways.       

 

I could see it causing some clubs to simply refuse to attend shows if charged and that will have a bad effect on both traders and show-organizers.  What's the solution here? To be honest, I don't know...

 

Cheers. 

 

Chris. 

 

All of which is fine. I couldn't care less whether the show happens or not. Club members too tight to pay for their old boys day out can't act all surprised when the show folds because the defacto sponsorship from businesses dries up. It needs paid for somehow, and ultimately the question is "Who benefits from this?". Clue - businesses attending many shows struggle to break even. Many shows seem to serve only as vanity projects for clubs thinking they're more important than they really are. If nobody wants to pay for them to exist then perhaps nobody will miss them once they cease to.

[Julien]

19 minutes ago, spruecutter96 said:

Good luck to anyone who tries introducing club table-fees, particularly at the smaller shows. Club-members are generally very accustomed to not having to pay and - if charges are introduced - it will cause a LOT of resentment, IMHO. If folks have not been charged historically, then introducing even tiny fees will provoke ill feeling. I'm sure that club-members would consider their free-time, petrol- and food-costs to be enough of a commitment, as it is. Obviously, they get all the benefits of attending a model-show, so the equation definitely works both ways.       

 

I could see it causing some clubs to simply refuse to attend shows if charged and that will have a bad effect on both traders and show-organizers.  What's the solution here? To be honest, I don't know...

 

Cheers. 

 

Chris. 

Its either that or pay entry fees? Its already happening with table fees at SMW, and at MK only 3 club members get in for free, everyone else arriving before opening pays £5 and after opening full fee. I mentioned this at our club and there was no issues from people. TBH as I said people will drop loads for kits, paints etc but balk at paying £5 to get in? 

[spruecutter96]

You have some very forthright opinions on model-shows, Jamie. 

 

I believe that shows being cancelled has a very bad effect on the hobby. To suggest it is of no consequence is incorrect. Young people see the amazing quality of the builds at shows and they aspire to produce similar results. The model-making community is only getting older and it's numbers are likely dwindling due to ill-health, poor eyesight due to ageing and - let's face it - the fact that some its practitioners are no longer around (to put it bluntly). Personally, I believe that the falling numbers are NOT being filled up by the younger generations. I've seen the argument that we are living in a "golden age" of model-production (which I agree with). The issue is, I reckon a lot of these new, exotic kits are simply not selling in large numbers. 

 

Every show that gets cancelled is a blow to our hobby. Anything that promotes model-making has to be nurtured and encouraged. Without shows, model-making will be pushed even further into the "niche" past-time it already is. 

 

Trading at shows doesn't suit your business-model and I fully understand why. I'm sure that internet-only trading has massive benefits over trading solely at shows. There are some traders who seem very happy to trade both at shows and online (Tim Cooper of Affinity Models springs to mind here).   

 

To each their own, I guess. 

 

Chris. 

[spruecutter96]

1 minute ago, Julien said:

Its either that or pay entry fees? Its already happening with table fees at SMW, and at MK only 3 club members get in for free, everyone else arriving before opening pays £5 and after opening full fee. I mentioned this at our club and there was no issues from people. TBH as I said people will drop loads for kits, paints etc but balk at paying £5 to get in? 

I take your point, Julien, but Telford and Milton Keynes are both HUGE shows and - traditionally - people are much more inclined to pay to attend these ones. Smaller shows? Not so much, I would expect. 

 

Chris.  

[Julien]

5 minutes ago, spruecutter96 said:

I take your point, Julien, but Telford and Milton Keynes are both HUGE shows and - traditionally - people are much more inclined to pay to attend these ones. Smaller shows? Not so much, I would expect. 

 

Chris.  

Who knows? The internet has certainly changed things. Will a trader sell so much more at a show to cover a day loading the van, fuel to drive to the show, potential hotel stay, any wages that need to be paid, then another day back at home again unloading eveything, plus meals, and any other expenses I missed?

 

The dynamic has changed and I think the show scene has not kept up. OK £10 for MK entry is a lot, and its a big show, but say £3 for a smaller show I dont think is unreasonable? maybe its just me?

 

I cant say for other clubs but at Ipswich we are lucky we can tie our show in with another local event, we know that where we are we struggle to get attendance by many clubs because of the distance and we just get on with it, the show for us is mainly about inviting local clubs and getting our club visible in the local area, its certainly no vanity project.  We have a couple of trader attend and they are happy to do so, do I support them, you bet.

[JohnT]

Really interesting to read all the above. As a non trader and just one of the punters I am surprised that there is any question that entry to a show is by admission ticket paid for. I just took it for granted that it would cost me to get in. There are very few events where you don’t pay something to get in. £3-5?  In most cities you will pay more to park the car for the afternoon.  
 

As for under the table selling I suspect the problem only appears when it tips over from casual limited selling of obviously unloved elderly stash queens into an off site shop!  When it gets to the latter the traders have a valid point where they pay the show for a stall pitch and there is someone doing the same as a freebie

[Julien]

30 minutes ago, JohnT said:

Really interesting to read all the above. As a non trader and just one of the punters I am surprised that there is any question that entry to a show is by admission ticket paid for. I just took it for granted that it would cost me to get in. There are very few events where you don’t pay something to get in. £3-5?  In most cities you will pay more to park the car for the afternoon.  
 

As for under the table selling I suspect the problem only appears when it tips over from casual limited selling of obviously unloved elderly stash queens into an off site shop!  When it gets to the latter the traders have a valid point where they pay the show for a stall pitch and there is someone doing the same as a freebie

For point 1, its the members attending from a club that have for the most part been able to get in for free, some clubs go with 2 ro 3 people some with many more than that, ive seen up to 15 members plus families at some shows. Now @ MK only 3 members doing the set up get in free, everyone else pays. This could be  a model going forward, or just pay for tables.  Upto now at a lot of shows its been expected that traders pay to get in, but in reality that model is getting to be non sustainable for them, even for travel to local shows, let alone further. 

 

Point 2, 100% There are a few, and its only a few who are basically trading like this. Like many things the few end up spoiling it for the many  

[JohnT]

1 hour ago, Julien said:

For point 1, its the members attending from a club that have for the most part been able to get in for free, some clubs go with 2 ro 3 people some with many more than that, ive seen up to 15 members plus families at some shows. Now @ MK only 3 members doing the set up get in free, everyone else pays. This could be  a model going forward, or just pay for tables.  Upto now at a lot of shows its been expected that traders pay to get in, but in reality that model is getting to be non sustainable for them, even for travel to local shows, let alone further. 

 

Point 2, 100% There are a few, and its only a few who are basically trading like this. Like many things the few end up spoiling it for the many  

Thanks Julien. I suspect that a lot of site members who are not in clubs or traders like me won’t know the financial set up. The way the world is going I can see how traders who have to travel must get good sales to make it worthwhile.  

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

1 hour ago, spruecutter96 said:

You have some very forthright opinions on model-shows, Jamie. 

 

I believe that shows being cancelled has a very bad effect on the hobby. To suggest it is of no consequence is incorrect. Young people see the amazing quality of the builds at shows and they aspire to produce similar results. The model-making community is only getting older and it's numbers are likely dwindling due to ill-health, poor eyesight due to ageing and - let's face it - the fact that some its practitioners are no longer around (to put it bluntly). Personally, I believe that the falling numbers are NOT being filled up by the younger generations. I've seen the argument that we are living in a "golden age" of model-production (which I agree with). The issue is, I reckon a lot of these new, exotic kits are simply not selling in large numbers. 

 

Every show that gets cancelled is a blow to our hobby. Anything that promotes model-making has to be nurtured and encouraged. Without shows, model-making will be pushed even further into the "niche" past-time it already is. 

 

Trading at shows doesn't suit your business-model and I fully understand why. I'm sure that internet-only trading has massive benefits over trading solely at shows. There are some traders who seem very happy to trade both at shows and online (Tim Cooper of Affinity Models springs to mind here).   

 

To each their own, I guess. 

 

Chris. 

 

Chris I have data-led views from the perspective of paying to trade at shows, and my views are that from a business' perspective being the ones everyone assumes will fight other traders for the opportunity to pay to stand all day in some hall. Nothing more. They are typically not good business, in the same way that advertising space in traditional printed model magazines is not good business. The ratio of cost to return really isn't very impressive, based upon collected data. The only thing (large) shows offer that's quite unique is the ability to very rapidly offload stock you no longer want to hold in exchange for a bit more liquid cash. If you still want to stock that stuff, then it's just making a tonne of work reordering or remanufacturing as applicable. Margins are pretty poor at shows because prices don't go up to reflect the uplift in costs to be there. Small shows fail at even that - they're like tumbleweed days for many traders. Boredom with a risk of theft. Lots of specialist traders will agree that higher net profit can be made staying at home and keeping the webstore open on a show weekend.

 

There is frequent repetition of speculation to the contrary typically peddled by those who have never run a business attending a show, but the objective results don't support those speculations. Most repeat customers for a business are not generated from shows, and most newcomers to the hobby as a whole nowadays are not inducted by shows.

 

If the shows disappeared entirely, the manufacturers in the modelling industry would hardly notice since the products would be sold anyway by other mechanisms. The majority of the modelling consumers also would hardly notice, since most are neither club members nor do they normally attend shows. Most aren't even forum members.

 

The internet has rendered shows mainly a social thing for club members. Their performance as a business opportunity is less than some would wish to believe.

[Chimpion]

21 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

The internet has rendered shows mainly a social thing for club members.

Exactly. A show is surely a great opportunity to show off your finest work to fellow modellers and the odd casual observer, together with the chance to socialize with others who share similar interests. Why shouldn't you be the one paying for that?

 

[Graham Boak]

I've never seen any problem in paying for entrance to a show.  Either as an ordinary visitor or a club putting on a show.  Free attendance to those who actually turn up to set up and take-away the show tables is fair enough: all other club members are just the same as the general public.  £5 is peanuts for an afternoon's interest.  The cost of petrol to drive there?  Modelling is not a cheap hobby anyway.

 

However, I can remember - it wasn't that far back - when there was no such things as the smaller shows, and any that did exist were purely local affairs for club recruiting purposes.  Despite the internet, I still think that the prime purpose of going to shows is actually seeing the models/books/tools that you've read about elsewhere: to get a chance to really see them, to investigate traders (of all kinds) who don't have a presence on the internet - and if they do, that doesn't mean I've actually come across them there.  Nobody knows every kit/transfer set/accessory/book that is available, or can spend the time digging in the obscurer corners of the internet all day.   (And I do quite a lot of that anyway!)  Meeting fellow-modellers I've known or know is a good thing.  Maybe even meeting a few I'd like to know... but the social side isn't a great priority.  I've not the slightest interest in "showing off" my own models, and to be brutally honest generally only a passing interest in the finished works of others, unless they pique my interest in some manner.  A quick walk past more club tables is all they get.  Perhaps less than they deserve.  

 

I would certainly miss the shows if they disappeared - yes the modelling hobby would go on regardless, but then it did before the shows too, and the shows are a bonus. 

 

PS: I recall the IPMS criticising under-table sales because of the passage blockage problem, only briefly mentioned above.  That still seems like a good reason.  If a few clubs are abusing the system as described above, then it is up to the show organisers to stamp it out.  Limits on the number of boxes of such sales, or a ban on those clubs that have abused.

[spruecutter96]

5 hours ago, Julien said:

The dynamic has changed and I think the show scene has not kept up. OK £10 for MK entry is a lot, and its a big show, but say £3 for a smaller show I dont think is unreasonable? maybe its just me?

I think we might have some crossed wires, here. My postings are about Clubs having to pay to attend a show. Paying punters at the front-door.... they accept they will pay a (usually small) fee, as I'm sure you are aware.

 

Chris.  

[Black Knight]

1. cultural differences; In N.I. exhibitors do not pay for entry nor for tables at any show

 

2. here we are even get free tea/coffee & bun morning and afternoon at nearly all shows and at some shows a sandwich lunch. One show used to give us a full 3-course lunch, but not this year, sandwich lunch promised this year

 

3. we plastic modellers are the 'side-show' of model railway shows

 

4. back to the main point; there is lots of 'under-table' selling of model railway items amongst the model railway people and nothing is said or done. Its only when it reaches bigger sales is the person required to take a sales table

 

5, we plastic modellers do not bother with 'under-table' selling mainly because the core visitor is a railway modeller not a plastic kit modeller. We did try it once a few years ago. I sold two packs of trees, a club mater sold two die-cast buses but none of his plastic kits

[pigsty]

There's no one answer to this.  Every show is different, and every show's economics are different, as we covered in the thread on that subject last autumn.  I've just come back from Southdown's show, where once again they've managed to run it with free admission - by (i) having the best cakes on the circuit and increasing the price a whisker, and (ii) getting sponsored by Sussex Model Centre three doors down, who even gave them discount vouchers.  They had five or six traders, all happy (one commenting that he's never known it so good since shows came back); and while I heard there were no under-table sales, I definitely saw some.  No-one else is in that position, so this all means nothing for the next show along.

 

Personally I think private sales are one of the highlights of model shows.  In fact, they're one reason I like to attend as an exhibitor: getting first crack at the stock, plus having a laugh at seeing the same shonky old stuff being punted optimistically for years.  You never know what you'll find, and I've had some bargains and rarities that I'm very happy with - and not one of them was also on sale from a trader, so I don't buy the idea that the one always robs the other.  Only if they all had the same stock would that carry enough weight to make a difference.  However, each show is a private matter for the organisers, and if they don't want to allow private sales, it won't stop me going.

 

Buying new stock purely to pile it up "under" a table and sell it on is well outside the spirit of all this.  (Apart from anything else, you're not meant to sell things on until the box art is faded and the decals are shot.)  Anyone doing it should be made to pay trader's rates or be shown the door.  That too is down to the organisers.  If they have rules about how traders get to take part, they should enforce them, because it's not just the other traders who might object - it undermines their own economics.

 

Finally, I don't think under-table sales can make any material difference to the separate question of who should pay to get in.  Even at a large show like Southern Expo or Modelkraft, I've never seen enough volume to count.  There are always more traders too, and their stock levels massively outweigh what private club members are flogging off.

[Pete in Lincs]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I recall the IPMS criticising under-table sales because of the passage blockage problem, only briefly mentioned above.  That still seems like a good reason. 

I'll second that. I only been to Hinckley (at the old venue) once and Southwell, twice. Nice wide aisles at Hinckley, but Southwell's were narrower & easily jammed.

Backpacks, pushchairs etc add to the confusion. I enjoy the built models at shows, and I've had some good chats there and met a few Britmodellers.

I also enjoy finding bargains, so the under the table stuff was welcome.

Some clubs I saw had kits for sale inside their area. Someone did complain about theft from an under table box. 

I've also paid for kits from traders, it saves the postage. And, I didn't expect to get in for free, two or three pounds is neither here nor there. 

[3DStewart]

Lots of different points being raised here. For what it's worth here's my view.

 

Under table sales are a key attraction for me. I like looking for oddball stuff or bargains.  Stop under table sales and I probably won't be attending your show, unless it's near and I'm part of a club display. How does my absence help the traders?

 

Entrance fees. I'm happy to pay these, but they've got to be proportionate to the size and interest of the show. £2-3, I'll pay without thinking, £5, beginning to be problematic, unless it's a premium show.  £10, forget it, that's a No from me, unless it's a two day event.

Club displays and free member entry.  Difficult. You need decent displays to have a good show, but some clubs can abuse free entry and have clouds of members who display little.  I'm happy with, say, four members getting free entry and the rest having to pay.  The club can then decide how to divide these up.  At Shropshire we've decided to reimburse members who have to pay, provided they are displaying with us.

 

Clubs paying for tables.  Again, difficult, but I can see the need to discourage clubs asking for lavish table space that isn't really justified by the quality of the display.  We debated this at last week's club AGM and a motion was passed that the committee does NOT book additional paid for tables, unless in exceptional circumstances which must be supported by members in advance.  Partly this is a response to financial pressures and partly because less members seem to want to display at shows.

I would be interested to know if the last two points about club financial pressures and dwindling exhibitor enthusiasm are apparent in other clubs. If they are then expect the show scene to evolve quite rapidly.

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by 3DStewart