Dragon M7 Priest Early Production

[Alan W]

Can anyone point me in the direction of a decent set of tracks for the above kit? I've tried putting together the individual links from the kit (magic track) but there seem to be far too few links, even using up all the spares provided. It looks like the same chassis as for the M10 and so presumably the M4 Sherman.

 

The tracks provided are, for want of a better description, rectangular with no tread.. In fact the Tamiya M10 Achilles kit set of tracks look perfect (but are already in use on that model!)

 

I cannot seem to be able to upload photos, having just tried two different supposed photo sharing sites

[Alan W]

Ok! I've managed it!!!

 

 

 

[M3talpig]

https://www.hannants.co.uk/search/index.php?adv=1&product_category_id=&product_division_id=&manufacturer_id=&product_type_id=3018&code=&scale_id=954&keyword_search=Sherman&setPerPage=25&sort=0&search_direction=asc&save_search_name=&save_search=

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=sherman+tracks&_sacat=0

 

Try here they have a lot of track sets for the Sherman chassis.

[Kingsman]

I would recommend either the Miniart T41 or Bronco T41/51 tracks.  These were the plain block types appropriate to an early M7.  Technically the thicker T51 is later but in 1/35 you can't tell the difference except under close examination.  Miniart T41s are easier to find than Bronco as supply is more consistent and they are a bit cheaper - and easier to put together. Both types remain"workable" after assembly which eases fitting.  With any M3 or M4 kit it is advisable to leave the idler mounting loose so that the track fit can be adjusted - as per the original.  Not all kits readily permit this as some have very short axles.

 

Any Bronco M4 track set will make T41s as their basic sprues contain those parts and they add extra sprues for different outer faces.  Model Hobbies or Hannants would be worth a try: other stores are available. I have a Bronco set for my Dragon M7 which has the nasty DS tracks.

 

BTW, the lumps that Dragon have moulded on top of the stowage boxes were actually bent sheet metal and hollow underneath.  They were mounts for auxiliary fuel tanks, rarely if ever seen on M7s.  Same parts as on M3 Light and Medium.  There were 2 little hooks each side on top of the boxes for the tank retaining straps.  Seen here on an M3 Light.

 

   

[Alan W]

15 hours ago, M3talpig said:

https://www.hannants.co.uk/search/index.php?adv=1&product_category_id=&product_division_id=&manufacturer_id=&product_type_id=3018&code=&scale_id=954&keyword_search=Sherman&setPerPage=25&sort=0&search_direction=asc&save_search_name=&save_search=

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=sherman+tracks&_sacat=0

 

Try here they have a lot of track sets for the Sherman chassis.

 

2 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

I would recommend either the Miniart T41 or Bronco T41/51 tracks.  These were the plain block types appropriate to an early M7.  Technically the thicker T51 is later but in 1/35 you can't tell the difference except under close examination.  Miniart T41s are easier to find than Bronco as supply is more consistent and they are a bit cheaper - and easier to put together. Both types remain"workable" after assembly which eases fitting.  With any M3 or M4 kit it is advisable to leave the idler mounting loose so that the track fit can be adjusted - as per the original.  Not all kits readily permit this as some have very short axles.

 

Any Bronco M4 track set will make T41s as their basic sprues contain those parts and they add extra sprues for different outer faces.  Model Hobbies or Hannants would be worth a try: other stores are available. I have a Bronco set for my Dragon M7 which has the nasty DS tracks.

 

BTW, the lumps that Dragon have moulded on top of the stowage boxes were actually bent sheet metal and hollow underneath.  They were mounts for auxiliary fuel tanks, rarely if ever seen on M7s.  Same parts as on M3 Light and Medium.  There were 2 little hooks each side on top of the boxes for the tank retaining straps.  Seen here on an M3 Light.

 

   

Thanks guys. So the type I need is T41/T51. Looks like Miniart T35322 is the one to try. Cannot get into Model Hobbies and Hannants don't list that model. Will try eBay.

 

Are "workable" individual track links the way to go now? All previous kits have been Tamiya (One AFV) which have rubber tracks

[Kingsman]

2 hours ago, Alan W said:

Are "workable" individual track links the way to go now? All previous kits have been Tamiya (One AFV) which have rubber tracks

Very much personal preference, although individual links are becoming more common in kits.  Occasionally you find both. 

 

Vinyl replaced rubber many years ago.  Its notable problems are:

• Joining - how?  The material is generally solvent-proof, although some do claim to be glue-able
• Tension.  Too much, pulling suspension out of alignment or too little causing unnatural sit.  Rarely just right.  Some materials used by manufacturers are ridiculously stiff.
• Sag.  On tanks that have track sag, that is.  Not all do: M7 won't.  Getting correct sag with vinyl is extremely difficult.  In the Bad Old Days we used to tie the tracks to the wheels with thread or insert black pins into the hull sides to get the right sit.
• Painting.  The material does not readily accept paint, which cracks and flakes off when you try to fit them and long-term adhesion is dubious.
• Mould lines.  Impossible to remove as the material does not sand down.
• Dragon "DS styrene".  Supposed to solve some of these problems but failed - by bringing others, notably disintegration.

Individual links are certainly becoming more common and there is a whole QM(Tech) Stores of after-market track links in plastic and metal, and even still some in vinyl.  The arrival of building jigs with some is an improvement, as are those whose links come already off sprues and de-burred ready for assembly.  But the idea of non-workable individual links like those originally in this kit is IMHO completely barking.  Why would you do that??  Link and length - where you get a mix of pre-assembled sections with individual links for the awkward bits - comes a close second.  In both cases the manufacturers suggest that you fit the tracks to the tank and then attempt to paint them and the suspension in situ.  Utter madness........  But link and length is undoubtedly the easiest to build with the best result to date.

 

Workable individual links are undoubtedly the way to go, but are often marred by mind-numbingly tedious clean-up and assembly.  Bronco's M4 links are 5 parts per link, Miniarts are 4, with 2-4 sprue attachments per part.  But if Dragon have moulded the end connectors integrally with the links in the photos above they will never sit right around the sprockets and idlers.  The end connectors flexed relative to both links, not just one.  Moulding them thus means they will bump into each other around bends, which they did not.  Separate parts solve this.

 

Yes you can assemble non-workable links and link and length sections off the vehicle and attach later after painting and weathering.  The problem is the sprockets, where you cannot fit pre-formed rigid sections because of the angles of the teeth.  You also need to mould them to the shape of the suspension while the glue is still pliable and make sure they don't move while setting.  With track types like VVSS M4s - like this M7 - you can leave off the outer face of the sprocket and fit it later as the guide horns fit inside.  Metal jigs are also available for moulding your track runs to shape off the vehicle, but they seem to be almost as expensive as the kits themselves and a wasted investment unless you plan multiple versions of the same suspension setup.

 

Just sayin'............  Other opinions are available, and I'm sure are about to appear😁.

[Alan W]

10 minutes ago, Das Abteilung said:

Workable individual links are undoubtedly the way to go, but are often marred by mind-numbingly tedious clean-up and assembly.  Bronco's M4 links are 5 parts per link, Miniarts are 4, with 2-4 sprue attachments per part.  But if Dragon have moulded the end connectors integrally with the links in the photos above they will never sit right around the sprockets and idlers.  The end connectors flexed relative to both links, not just one.  Moulding them thus means they will bump into each other around bends, which they did not.  Separate parts solve this.

 

Yes you can assemble non-workable links and link and length sections off the vehicle and attach later after painting and weathering.  The problem is the sprockets, where you cannot fit pre-formed rigid sections because of the angles of the teeth.  You also need to mould them to the shape of the suspension while the glue is still pliable and make sure they don't move while setting.  With track types like VVSS M4s - like this M7 - you can leave off the outer face of the sprocket and fit it later as the guide horns fit inside.  Metal jigs are also available for moulding your track runs to shape off the vehicle, but they seem to be almost as expensive as the kits themselves and a wasted investment unless you plan multiple versions of the same suspension setup.

 

Just sayin'............  Other opinions are available, and I'm sure are about to appear😁.

Ok, thanks for the information. Just ordered Miniart set 35322 T41 tracks off ebay.

 

Wow, 4 parts per link! The Dragon parts are single mouldings per link, two types supposedly for flat and curved but I can't tell the difference! They are supplied in two zip seal bags.

 

Guess I might now go mad with the repetitive task ahead of me!

[Kingsman]

9 minutes ago, Alan W said:

The Dragon parts are single mouldings per link, two types supposedly for flat and curved but I can't tell the difference!

Ah, so that's how they solved the problem.  The end connectors will be at different angles.  90 degrees for flat sections, angled inwards for curved sections.

 

Miniart's assembly is easier as the top and bottom link halves trap the end connectors' pins in between.  Modify 4 end connectors for your final joins by snipping the little retaining flanges off the pins and keep these separate to insert when you fit the tracks.  You may need to glue these in once fitted.  The short Miniart pins are however weaker than the Bronco design.

 

With Bronco you get a "chassis" of 2 full-width pins which is trapped between the link halves and then add 2 guide horns.  Stronger but more fiddly.  TBH I can't understand why the end connectors can't be moulded to the "chassis" with modern moulding techniques.

[Cyberduck]

There are two set of Mini Art MT35322 on the Hannant's website if it helps

[Alan W]

MiniArt track link set received and looked at.

 

Is there a construction aid (template) available? I'm not sure I have the ability (skill) to hold all the pieces in place whilst then applying a tiny bit of glue to attach the other half of the tread.

 

Thanks for any help or suggestions

[Kingsman]

I haven't built a Miniart set yet but I am working with some Bronco, where the parts breakdown is similar.  I settled on using a strip of thin masking tape sticky side up, held down by cross strips at the ends. 

• Lay the outer pads along the tape.  You'll need to try a couple to get the separation gap.  The Bronco ones essentially butt up together.
• Add the end connectors 1 join at a time
• Fit the inner pads, trapping the end connectors
• Keep this up.

I found it easier to work adding 20 links at a time then repositioning or replacing the tape so you don't have a massive long piece of tape.  Leave them to dry a bit before you peel the tape off carefully.  You will need something over 80 links per side.  I think I'm at 83 for my M4A3.

 

Each end of the finished run should have no end connector.  Snip the retaining lips off the end of the pins of 2 end connectors per side and use these for the final join once fitted.  You may need to glue these in.

 

I have a Trumpeter Master Tools track building jig which proved entirely useless for this type of track.  It will only work for links with central guide horns as the sides of the trough are undercut.  And it will only work for clip together or glue together links as there is no way of inserting pins from the sides.  That can only be done by placing the guide horns in the trough rather than the whole link.  So that was a bit of a waste of money.  Quite a lot of money for what it is.

[Alan W]

3 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

I haven't built a Miniart set yet but I am working with some Bronco, where the parts breakdown is similar.  I settled on using a strip of thin masking tape sticky side up, held down by cross strips at the ends. 

• Lay the outer pads along the tape.  You'll need to try a couple to get the separation gap.  The Bronco ones essentially butt up together.
• Add the end connectors 1 join at a time
• Fit the inner pads, trapping the end connectors
• Keep this up.

I found it easier to work adding 20 links at a time then repositioning or replacing the tape so you don't have a massive long piece of tape.  Leave them to dry a bit before you peel the tape off carefully.  You will need something over 80 links per side.  I think I'm at 83 for my M4A3.

 

Each end of the finished run should have no end connector.  Snip the retaining lips off the end of the pins of 2 end connectors per side and use these for the final join once fitted.  You may need to glue these in.

 

I have a Trumpeter Master Tools track building jig which proved entirely useless for this type of track.  It will only work for links with central guide horns as the sides of the trough are undercut.  And it will only work for clip together or glue together links as there is no way of inserting pins from the sides.  That can only be done by placing the guide horns in the trough rather than the whole link.  So that was a bit of a waste of money.  Quite a lot of money for what it is.

 

Thanks Das, I think I'll give the masking tape a go (tomorrow!). The end connectors kept falling off the link causing me great frustration! I looked through my kits and I have a Gecko kit which does have a jig (that's the word I was looking for) but not suitable for this type of track. Also the Meng WWI tank has individual links so it's a skill I need to develop.

 

The box suggests 79 links per side - I've calculated they've given 5 spares for each side, which gives me 84, sounds like just enough. Dragon gave me instructions totalling 71! Same size as well.

[Alan W]

This is going to send me mad!!!! 24 links done so far!

[Alan W]

Ok, 1 side done. 79 links. The idler wheel was not glued in so taking it off and fitting the track was reasonably easy - just VERY tedious to make!

 

Thanks for the tip Das on the masking tape - not sure I would have done it without this.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Alan W

[Alan W]

Both sides completed. The second went faster with growing confidence. Both used 79 links (nice to know both sides are the same!)

 

Now to paint. MiniArt Instructions say black/gun metal; Dragon say steel; but I'm thinking not in the desert! Maybe steel base with desert yellow on the flats.

[Kingsman]

OK, so the pads will be rubbery black all over as they were solid rubber on the T41 type.  The main reason why they quickly had to be replaced with all-steel patterns, as each vehicle set needed 1,800lb of rubber which was in short supply after Japan occupied Malaya.

 

The end connectors were a steel alloy with manganese so the native colour is a metallic goldy brown somewhat like a light bronze.  It oxidised to a milk chocolate or milky coffee sort of colour and then (much) later to a dark chocolate or strong coffee sort of colour.  Obviously all covered in dust in the desert of course.

 

Something like this.

  

[Alan W]

19 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

OK, so the pads will be rubbery black all over as they were solid rubber on the T41 type.  The main reason why they quickly had to be replaced with all-steel patterns, as each vehicle set needed 1,800lb of rubber which was in short supply after Japan occupied Malaya.

 

The end connectors were a steel alloy with manganese so the native colour is a metallic goldy brown somewhat like a light bronze.  It oxidised to a milk chocolate or milky coffee sort of colour and then (much) later to a dark chocolate or strong coffee sort of colour.  Obviously all covered in dust in the desert of course.

 

Something like this.

Right, Ok.

 

Thanks for your help and advice.

[Alan W]

Looks like I am going to have to invest time and patience (the same thing?) into making individual track links for all my models - just noticed two previously completed Tamiya kits have suffered broken vinyl tracks, after ages spent on the display shelf! Probably should expect the rest to go the same?

 

BTW they're not in direct sunlight.