Fairy Gannet on elevator HMS Ark Royal-Victorious-Eagle

[Orion]

Dear Fellow Modelers,

 

For the realization of a diorama, showing the Fairy Gannet on the aft elevator of a British Large Aircraft Carrier, I am desperately searching for some detailed pictures of the elevator area and if possible, some pics with the Gannet on the elevator.

Important are dimensions of the elevator in connection with the Gannet. A gentlemen, that had worked with 849 Flight told me, that Gannets were only brought down or up from the flight deck on the forward lift. If so, can some specialist explain to me what was the reason for this sequence. To me, the aft elevator looks larger than the front one. As for pictures: I did search the internet and even a fellow modeler came by to bring his 4+ Publication. Hundreds of beautiful pictures, but none of them on the elevator.

Any comments are most welcome. Highest Regards, Orion The Netherlands. 

[EwenS]

Lift sizes vary with the ship. Dimensions are length & width.

Victorious - forward 58ft x 40ft. Aft 54ft x 34ft.

Eagle - forward 54ft x 44ft aft 54ft x 33ft.

Ark Royal - as Eagle. Until her 1967-70 refit she also had a side lift for which I can’t find the details just now.

 

As you can see it is the forward lifts that are larger. The width of the flight deck fore and aft gives a false perspective.

 

As for moving Gannets by the forward lift only, the only reason I can think of might be where they were stored in the hangar. Eagle & Ark were built with a hangar extension to the upper hangar only (they had two hangars, one on top of the other) that was located forward of the lift. When reconstructed Victorious was given a similar extension to her single hangar. If the Gannets were stored there then the simplest way of achieving that would be via the forward lift.

 

Photos of the lift spaces are as rare as hens teeth, as you have found out. But you might find something useful on this thread.

 

[Orion]

Hello Ewens,

Thanks for your kind response and explanation of the handling of this very special aircraft.. Much appreciated.

 

If by coincidence, you find some additional pictures, please contact me.

 

Highest Regards from The Netherlands,

Orion

[JagRigger]

Wonder if the chap doing the large scratchbuild Victorious has any decent photos or info

[CJP]

Hello Orion - I found this photo somewhere years ago and is an interesting view of HMS ARK ROYAL's forward? lift with Phantom on it and Gannet nearby

 

AEW Gannet on the rear lift

CJP

Edited May 6, 2022 by CJP
photo

[Orion]

Hello CJP.

Wow, this is the kind of pictures I was looking for. Thanks so much for the effort of putting it on line.

Much appreciated. I like the  combination of the F-4K and the Gannet AEW. It rolls of the printer in seconds.

Highest Regards from The Netherlands.

Orion.

[bootneck]

On 02/05/2022 at 15:24, Orion said:

Gannets were only brought down or up from the flight deck on the forward lift. I

Hello Orion,

 

On the Ark, and presumably the Eagle, the Gannets were parked in the rear of the hangar, and accessed via the aft lift.  This photo shows one of the Gannets tucked in on the right beside a couple of Sea Kings.

 

Cheers,
Mike

[CJP]

Gannet AEW3 photo added

[Orion]

Hello CJP and bootneck,

Appreciated your contributions. These are of much help with placing my Gannet COD (1/72 scale) on the aft elevator. It was also good to read that the Gannet could be brought down on both elevators. So no limitations regarding the size of the aircraft.

I also contacted the builder of the 1/200 scale HMS Victorious. Hopefully this good man has some pictures from the area directly surrounding the elevator.

Like the first arrester wire.This should be right in front of the aft elevator.

 

Again, thanks for your thoughtfulness.

 

Highest Regards from The Netherlands.

Orion

[Roof Rat]

Hello Orion

 

Bootneck is correct the Gannets were allocated storage/work-space at the aft end of the upper hangar. This area was accessed by the aft lift, only going as far as the upper hangar level, the forward lift accessed both upper and lower hangar levels.  You are correct as the Gannet would quite easily fit on the forward lift ( we used to run exercises where the aft lift was out of action and all hangar movements were carried out using only the forward lift, what a pain!!). But, all of the Gannet maintenance kit was located at the aft end of the upper hangar, so a Gannet on the forward lift would be expectable but, very rarely seen.

 

   

   

 

Hope this has been of help Orion

 

Cheers

 

RR (Chris).

[Orion]

Dear RoofRat,

Thanks for your response. Much appreciated.

 

Indeed a very clear story concerning the operational use of the elevators. As you described it was a "Pain" to handle the Gannet on the forward elevator.

I received a message from a member that handled the Gannet for four years on the Ark Royal. (849 Flight) This is what he wrote to me:

 

"I was on 849D flight for 4 years and can't remember a time when we ranged or struck down a Gannet on the after lift, it was always the front lift, always."

 

I was confused, because my plan was to put the AC on the aft elevator in diorama 1/72 scale. Although it was good to read that both could be used. With your operational experience I can go forward with my plan of the aft elevator. I am still looking for the area directly around the fore and after elevator. This gives me a chance to make the baseplate larger.

 

Highest Regards from The Netherlands

Orion

[Roof Rat]

Hello Orion

This might help with your diorama for sizing.

HMS Ark Royal R09 Forward lift 25 ton working capacity 54ft 1.5 inch x 43ft 1.5 inch (16.5 x 13.4m)

Aft lift 16.5 ton working capacity 54ft 1.5 inch x 32ft 9.75 inch (16.5 x 10.0m).

All the best

RR (Chris). 

[Orion]

Hello RR (Chris).

Thanks for your extra effort in getting me the measurements of the elevator.

That saves me a lot of work. Almost there.

Highest Regards from The Netherlands.

Orion (Dirk)

[ClaudioN]

On 5/6/2022 at 8:10 PM, Orion said:

"I was on 849D flight for 4 years and can't remember a time when we ranged or struck down a Gannet on the after lift, it was always the front lift, always."

 

I was confused, because my plan was to put the AC on the aft elevator in diorama 1/72 scale.

If the flight was 849D, the carrier would be Eagle. Maybe hangar spaces were arranged differently on that carrier?

[Roof Rat]

ar now corrected and hangar added to my computers dictionary (auto-correct), thank you.

 

RR

[Bedders]

Forgive the slight thread drift, but looking at these great photos I'm struck (again) by the fact that the Buccaneers got the Tactical roundels (and so did the AEW Gannets at the end) whereas the Phantoms didn't, and instead kept the red-white-blue.  Does anyone know why?

 

Justin

Edited May 11, 2022 by Bedders

[ClaudioN]

4 hours ago, Roof Rat said:

ar now corrected and hangar added to my computers dictionary (auto-correct), thank you.

 

RR

Apologies if my underlined hangar sounded picky, it wasn't meant to be.

I may sometimes be surprised at the occasional mis-spelt word but, even as a non-English mother tongue, I can usually figure out the intended meaning, so it is no problem. In this regard, hangar vs hanger is no different.

However, this oddity has been defying me for years: I do have hangers in my wardrobe. I do have visions of plastic kits on hangers, which might be an interesting storage solution, but I am pretty sure a hanger cannot hold a real Gannet. It never occurred to me that a computer spelling checker could be the culprit, so thank you.

 

Claudio

[ClaudioN]

On 5/6/2022 at 8:10 PM, Orion said:

"I was on 849D flight for 4 years and can't remember a time when we ranged or struck down a Gannet on the after lift, it was always the front lift, always."

On 5/10/2022 at 7:08 AM, ClaudioN said:

If the flight was 849D, the carrier would be Eagle. Maybe hangar spaces were arranged differently on that carrier?

I found a photo in the book "Carrier Air Groups - HMS Eagle" by David Brown (Hylton Lacy, 1972), whose caption reads: "The forward end of Eagle's upper and lower hangars. (Photo: MoD)".

The shot appears to be taken from the forward lift itself and here's what I see:

upper hangar: left line, Gannet AEWs; centre line, Wessex; right line: Scimitar

lower hangar: Buccaneer S. Mk.1s

The book says the after half of the lower hangar was sacrificed to provide additional workshop and test facilities. Possibly, Sea Vixens would then be found in the after half of the upper hangar?

 

Based on air group composition, the photo appears to be from the 1965-66 period. I assume that later changes in the air group would not justify substantial rearrangement of hangar spaces, and Gannet AEWs remained in the front part of the upper hangar. This could explain Gannets on Eagle being moved on the forward lift.

 

 

[Finn]

Here is a video on Gannets:

 

 

at the 2:40 mark one is taken down to the hangar deck.

 

Jari

 

[Orion]

To All fellow members reaction to this topic,

 

Thank you very much for all the information. Much appreciated. Interesting was the fact that the Gannet was brought down on the aft hangar elevator in the video..

I have the dimensions and lots of elevator shots, only thing missing is some (top) deck views of the deck itself. I need this, so that I can make some additional space around the elevator in the diorama.

The book on my shelf "British Aircraft Carrier"  by David Hobbs has none of the detailed photo's I am looking for.

 

 

Highest Regards from The Netherlands.

Orion.

 

[bootneck]

Hello Orion,

 

which carrier are you going to build your diorama of?  It matters, as the Victorious was a different shape from Eagle and Ark Royal and that affects the markings.  Although Eagle and Ark Royal were virtually the same shape, both had different deck markings from each other at certain periods.   Also, the carrier you choose will affect the markings on your Gannet, so it's best to decide on the one carrier you wish to model.

 

cheers,
Mike

[ClaudioN]

2 hours ago, Orion said:

Interesting was the fact that the Gannet was brought down on the aft hangar elevator in the video.

Thank you all for this interesting discussion, I keep learning things.

 

The aircraft carrier in the first part of the video is Ark Royal in 1957/1958, as both deck letters 'O' and 'R' are visible. Those shown are anti-submarine Gannets, not AEW and most of them are in the markings of the resident ASW unit, No. 815 Squadron. Two (still?) unmarked aircraft are WN422 seen landing, then WN403 shown going down on the aft lift at 2:40.

 

The video shows yet another variation as far as hangar spaces go. Note that in this case the lift is going all the way down to the lower hangar of Ark Royal, whereas in the late sixties both Ark Royal and Eagle held their AEW Gannets on the upper hangar.

I suspect arrangements might have been varied during major refits to allow for new embarked aircraft types. Possibly, the heavier in the air group at the bottom?

[bootneck]

1 hour ago, ClaudioN said:

..........Note that in this case the lift is going all the way down to the lower hangar of Ark Royal, whereas in the late sixties both Ark Royal and Eagle held their AEW Gannets on the upper hangar.

I suspect arrangements might have been varied during major refits to allow for new embarked aircraft types. Possibly, the heavier in the air group at the bottom?

Hello Claudio,

 

On Ark Royal, the aft end of the lower hangar was converted to extra office spaces and ready use magazines, for the additional requirements of the embarked Phantom squadron.

 

Herewith a plan of the aft end of the Lower Hangar and Aft Lift area, showing the conversion to various offices and machinery spaces.

 

This is a view, from the forward lift on Ark Royal, looking into the forward end of the two hangar decks.   The Gannets can just be seen at the rear.

 

Mike

[Orion]

Hello Bootneck, Dear Mike

 

I am specifically interested in the flight deck (colors)  of HMS Ark Royal.

My aim:

Forward elevator and part of the launching platform with blast deflectors.

Aft elevator with the arrester wire right in front of it.

 

If I make it a little larger, I could position a second AC (HAS 1) on deck.

That would make the effort more acceptable.

 

Thanks for your assistance. Much appreciated.

 

Highest Regards from The Netherlands.

Great fan of the FAA RN.

Orion. (Dirk)

[bootneck]

Hello Dirk,

 

Airfix Modelworld did a 1:72 scale plan of the forward lift and waist catapult area.  I can't remember which edition but it might be worth looking out for that magazine.

 

I have some details of colours most of them can be seen in the thread I made for my scratchbuild in 1:144 scale, which I still haven't finished yet! 

 

 

Mike