Crashed Heinkel Unpublished Photographs

[fishplanebeer]

One of my ongoing projects is a Heinkel He111H-8 from 9/KG55 which crashed near to where I live in May 1941.

 

A number of photos were taken and published of the crash which I have however as the balloon fender was deemed to be of a classified or secret nature I'm assuming that any other photos were never published due to their sensitivity at the time. I'm also assuming that more photos would have been taken as it's seems unlikely that the official photographer would have limited themselves to just the three that were subsequently published. 

 

My assumption may of course be incorrect however I suspect the non-published photos, if indeed there were any, could hopefully be languishing in an de-classified archive somewhere and waiting to be found. The problem is I'm not sure where to start looking as I already have the period official crash reports which didn't have any photographs associated with them.

 

As such could anyone suggest a possible good start point please? If any photos do exist I'm assuming they would be at Kew but where to start given the vast number and types of archives that are held there.

 

I may be looking for a needle in a stack of needles but any pointers would be greatly appreciated.

 

Regards

Colin.

Edited May 1, 2022 by fishplanebeer

[Selwyn]

4 hours ago, fishplanebeer said:

One of my ongoing projects is a Heinkel He111H-8 from 9/KG55 which crashed near to where I live in May 1941.

 

A number of photos were taken and published of the crash which I have however as the balloon fender was deemed to be of a classified or secret nature I'm assuming that any other photos were never published due to their sensitivity at the time. I'm also assuming that more photos would have been taken as it's seems unlikely that the official photographer would have limited themselves to just the three that were subsequently published. 

 

My assumption may of course be incorrect however I suspect the non-published photos, if indeed there were any, could hopefully be languishing in an de-classified archive somewhere and waiting to be found. The problem is I'm not sure where to start looking as I already have the period official crash reports which didn't have any photographs associated with them.

 

As such could anyone suggest a possible good start point please? If any photos do exist I'm assuming they would be at Kew but where to start given the vast number and types of archives that are held there.

 

I may be looking for a needle in a stack of needles but any pointers would be greatly appreciated.

 

Regards

Colin.

 

Balloon fender??

 

Selwyn

[fishplanebeer]

Yep, the H-8 had an ungainly balloon fender (for pushing the balloon cables aside) protruding in front of the aircraft that ran from wing tip to wing tip and was attached by 5 brackets of sorts, two on each wing and a large central one fixed just under the nose, with two securing wires going form the fender to a point on top of the fuselage just aft of the main canopy.

 

It was removed for analysis by the Air Ministry the morning after the crash as it was something new to be investigated, which is why I'm assuming any additional photos taken would have been deemed 'classified' or 'secret' at the time.

 

I've e-mailed the RAE (now FAST), RAF Museum and Kew to see if they have any records and I'm off to visit the local museum in Earlswood where the plane came down as they have some background information and artefacts from the crash. Ideally I need to discover who or what department was responsible for taking the photos of the wreck so that I can track back, hence my plea for help.

 

Regards

Colin.

 

Ps. Hasegawa did it in kit form and it's occasionally available on E-Bay but at silly money so I'll be scratch building the fender and brackets instead.

Edited May 1, 2022 by fishplanebeer

[dogsbody]

This unit:

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[brewerjerry]

Hi 

     As to PRO / Kew maybe try a search in i think it was air 22  266/ 267 ?

or air 41 for crash reports, 

 maybe even air 50 ? or the AVIA aircraft type reports 

  mind you this is from a memory of about 20yrs ago 

 

 

WW2 dept was Ai2(g) i think 

 

  PM sent

 

     cheers

        jerry 

Edited May 2, 2022 by brewerjerry

[IanC]

Hi Colin,

 

As with scenes of bomb damage, most photos of crashed German aircraft in the UK were taken by local and national newspaper photographers. Copies of these had to be submitted to the Ministry of Information and cleared by government and, in this case, Air Ministry censors before they could be published. Details and backgrounds might be 'airbrushed' out. Photos deemed of a sensitive nature were withheld permanently, or only released later in the war.

 

In the process, the MOI built up a huge library of images which was subsequently transferred to the IWM. It is known as the MOI Censorship Bureau Library. The vast majority of the photos exist only as uncatalogued prints, although many of the crashed German aircraft photos have been copied and a few digitised. So it might be worth checking there.

 

The newspaper photo archives themselves have either long gone or been absorbed by large commercial picture agencies. Getty Images is the largest. It's probably a long shot but you could try them too.

 

Good luck,

 

Ian

[fishplanebeer]

I've included one of the pics that have been published so would welcome people's thoughts on it.

 

 

 

 

The confusion is whether the aircraft was G1+MT from 9/KG55, as shown in Luftwaffe loss records, or G1+EM from 4/KG55 as found on the compass card at the crash site. The identification letter to the right of the guard (around his elbow and hand area) to me suggest the letter E but its colour appears to be yellow and not white. I know interpreting colours from old b/w photos is a bit of a mine field but the letter is definitely a darker shade than the surrounding white areas on the cross, even allowing for shadow or camera exposure.

 

What adds even more to the confusion is that the official crash report confirms a yellow letter M and yellow spinners with no mention of any white lettering at all so I'm now utterly confused. I get that if the aircraft had recently been transferred from 9 to 4 staffel they may have omitted to repaint the spinners but surely the new identification letter would have been applied in white paint. But if so why did the crash report not mention white but instead made reference to yellow as I can't understand how even a dirty/blackened and singed white could be seen as yellow instead.

 

The only conclusion I can come to, albeit rather unlikely, is that it was carrying 4 staffel codes but in 9 staffel colours as nothing else seems to fit.

 

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated, and thank you to everyone who has suggested alternative lines of enquiry which I'm now pursuing and will report back on in due course.

 

Regards

Colin.

Edited May 3, 2022 by fishplanebeer

[Ed Russell]

58 minutes ago, fishplanebeer said:

but the letter is definitely a darker shade than the surrounding white areas on the cross

I think you have done a good job interpreting the letters but given the generally poor state of the lettering I think it could well be a white E. On my monitor it is the same as the lowest bars on the cross. Looks like a great project!

[fishplanebeer]

The pilot of the doomed aircraft was the StaffelKapitan (spelling?) of 9/KG55 at the time so it's possible that the aircraft had only very, very recently been transferred to 4/KG55, perhaps a matter of a day or so, and that the new code letters could have been hastily applied by the 9/KG55 ground crew before its transfer using their own staffel colour - possible I suppose and it fits, sort of.

 

From my limited understanding of Luftwaffe formations aircraft were usually deployed as a Gruppe tactical unit so it seems odd that an aircraft from III Gruppe (9 staffel) should be transferred so quickly to II Gruppe as they may have been deployed to completely different locations. It would have made more sense to transfer an aircraft from either 5 or 6 staffel to meet any 4 staffel needs. That said I haven't been able to confirm where II and III Gruppe actually were at this particular time so I guess it's possible they may have been operating in the same general area and the transfer was quite quick.

 

I guess my main stumbling block continues to be the fact that the crash report made a specific reference to Yellow and made no reference to White at all in terms of the aircrafts markings. Of course this means assuming that the report itself was reliable and accurate but if these reports can be inaccurate in such details it devalues their importance when it comes to researching any/all crash sites, which is rather disheartening.

 

Regards

Colin.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by fishplanebeer

[Selwyn]

18 hours ago, fishplanebeer said:

The pilot of the doomed aircraft was the StaffelKapitan (spelling?) of 9/KG55 at the time so it's possible that the aircraft had only very, very recently been transferred to 5/KG55, perhaps a matter of a day or so, and that the new code letters could have been hastily applied by the 9/KG55 ground crew before its transfer using their own staffel colour - possible I suppose and it fits, sort of.

 

From my limited understanding of Luftwaffe formations aircraft were usually deployed as a Gruppe tactical unit so it seems odd that an aircraft from III Gruppe (9 staffel) should be transferred so quickly to II Gruppe as they may have been deployed to completely different locations. It would have made more sense to transfer an aircraft from either 4 or 6 staffel to meet any 5 staffel needs. That said I haven't been able to confirm where II and III Gruppe actually were at this particular time so I guess it's possible they may have been operating in the same general area and the transfer was quite quick.

 

I guess my main stumbling block continues to be the fact that the crash report made a specific reference to Yellow and made no reference to White at all in terms of the aircrafts markings. Of course this means assuming that the report itself was reliable and accurate but if these reports can be inaccurate in such details it devalues their importance when it comes to researching any/all crash sites, which is rather disheartening.

 

Regards

Colin.

 

 

This was an official report compiled on scene and for intelligence reasons it must be accurate, especially  in relation to Gruppe colours, and also because it was unusual in having the balloon fender.

If the report says yellow then it was yellow. It would be a small but critical piece in determining the overall Luftwaffe order of battle and what unit was using what equipment. 

I see far to much of this "the report was wrong" in modelling forums, because trained intelligence officers by their nature must be incompetent?

 

Selwyn

 

[Shorty84]

Hi Colin,

 

fear I can't really contribute anything worthwhile but I found the following entry and another picture (which you may already know and of course someone is standing directly in front of the code letters) in a pdf about Luftwaffe losses over England in May 1941 (see pdf-page 6): https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/5a3134b40672a700015a5d31/5e6b8d097fbd5475a14cea1b_LCA8samplepages2.pdf

 

The accompanying text:

During operations to Birmingham, aircraft was attacked by a night fighter but also hit by light AA fire.
.303 strikes traced to the fuselage, tail fin and engine nacelles from upper rear direction, along with .303
strikes from below by ground based Lewis gun. Aircraft crashed in flames, disintegrated on hitting the
ground and burnt out.
Markings: M in yellow. Spinners also yellow. Underside of the aircraft painted lamp black, swastikas
and letters obliterated. Upper surface daubed with lamp black in zigzag lines which obliterated surface
markings. Plate with werke nr. 3971, dated 19 January 1941 by Ernest Heinkel, Rostock, another plate
with Land und See, Kiel and another E.H.M. Werke nr.3971.
Engines: Jumo 211 H-1; the number of one engine being 211H-1 MZK.127, the other engine 211H-1,
MZM.657 made by Junkers, Mersberg.
Armament: six MG15, one MG17 from the tail and one 20 mm free mounted cannon found. Four 250
kg and one 1,000 kg bombs carried, which exploded in the vicinity of the crash. Piece of 5 mm armour
was found to have been penetrated by a 20 mm cannon shell.
The leading edge of the wings was protected by a balloon cable deflector rail which stretched from
wingtip to wingtip but no cable cutting device fitted.

 

 

Cheers

Markus

[fishplanebeer]

I always held the view that such reports would be accurate for the very reasons you mention however it does present certain irregularities which I'm finding baffling.

 

Firstly if  the letter M was indeed in Yellow this is odd as its codes were G1+EM of 4 staffel so it would have been the E that was in colour and not the final staffel M letter.

 

Secondly looking again at the photo the aircraft letter appears to be an E, so ruling out G1+MT,  and is quite possibly in yellow yet the staffel colour for 4 staffel was white. I get that if the aircraft had very recently been transferred from 9 staffel the spinners may not have been over repainted but the new aircraft letter would presumably have been applied in white. Yet the crash report makes no mention of a white letter at all.

 

Thirdly the report confirms the presence of 6 MG15's plus a loose 20mm canon (plus the tail stinger MG17) yet the H-8 didn't carry any guns in the nose or canopy (due to the presence of the fender) so there would be nowhere for all this armament to have been located. It would have carried 2 mg's in the side windows, one in the dorsal gun position and either 2 mg's or a single mg plus the canon in the ventral gondola, a maximum of 5 weapons in total, not 7.

 

Finally extensive research into the Blitz on Birmingham by local author Steve Richards, confirms no night fighter engagements took place on the night of the 10th May 1941 that correspond to this particular incident so the aircraft was actually brought down by ground fire which fatally wounded the pilot in the head.

 

Again I have always attached great significance/accuracy to the period crash reports but in this instance the report is at odds with the photos and the armament spec of the aircraft so something is amiss for some reason.

 

Regards

Colin.

 

Ps. if as often thought the aircraft was G1+MT then the yellow M makes sense but the photo clearly shows the aircraft letter to be E

Pps. if the codes were visible/legible then the colour wouldn't be required in order to determine the appropriate unit identity 

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by fishplanebeer

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Regarding that E, I think all you can definitely conclude is that it wasn't white. It would of course imply panchromatic photographic film were the colour yellow, as with orthochromatic film yellow normally appears very dark.

 

The report given by @Shorty84 mentions lamp black paint applied in "zigzags" but I can see no evidence of a standard RLM70/71 type splinter pattern below them and frankly it looks like some other paint of lighter tone has been applied on the upper surfaces prior to the black mess being hosed over it. What strikes me is the very similar apparent tone of the letter E to that other, lighter colour applied before the black squiggles.

 

I'm possibly just adding confusion here, but is it possible we're seeing the E wot used to be white repainted in a less stark colour for night operations?

[Shorty84]

Hi Colin,

 

regarding the yellow M. While you are correct that the 3rd letter should be coloured and not the 4th, there were some rare instances when this happened. See for example this Ju 87D: http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW/Ju87-D1-StG2-(T6+AN)-Russia-1942-5.jpg

 

Cheers

Markus

[fishplanebeer]

All the period pics I have of KG55 during its night operations at this time show all the code letters to be daubed out under black paint, with the exception of the individual aircraft letter which was toned down also using black/a dark colour which possibly explains why the letter E appears not to be white. 

 

The same aircraft from a different angle which supports this.

 

 

 

And finally, a pic of the searchlight battery which brought down the Heinkel, along with their victory trophy which sadly no longer exists.

 

 

 

Regards

Colin.

[fishplanebeer]

Sorry, just to add that I visited the crash site this afternoon and it felt quite strange standing on the very spot where this aircraft came down and which has now become my latest modelling obsession.

 

Sadly I didn't have a metal detector handy as I'm sure there would still be some small fragments there which will have naturally risen to the surface again during the past 81 years, for example as frequently happens in France all along the Western Front. The land was/still is a private farm so I had to be quick but I may return trowel in hand to have a root around if I can get their permission.

 

The local village in Earlswood, the area in which the crash site lies, has a small museum which has a dedicated section all about the crash so hopefully they may be able to provide some additional information, especially on the fate of that wonderful tail unit!

 

Yet again I'd like to thank everyone who has kindly replied/responded to this post as it has genuinely added to my understanding, even if we perhaps still differ in terms of some of the finer details.

 

Regards

Colin.

 

Ps. my understanding is that as the night operation markings of black/lamp black were a temporary expedient so applied in the field and not in the factory they would have been applied over the existing standard day splinter camouflage. Indeed I have a pic of the lamp black being applied to the underside of a Heinkel He111, and its external 1000kg bombs as well , with what looks like a broom.  Respraying/priming the entire airframe in a different colour first would have been both onerous and unnecessary given that the overall effect being sought was for the aircraft to be essentially black or very indistinct, so the existing camouflage colour and  pattern wouldn't have been an issue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by fishplanebeer

[Black Knight]

A. DO NOT  go a-visiting with out the land owners permission in writing

B. Were any of the crew killed? The site may be a recognised 'war grave' site. To disturb a war grave is a serious offence

In either case you may find yourself on the wrong side of the local law

[brewerjerry]

Hi

     Read here for the correct official method of physically researching a crash site

 

  MOD permission is required 

 

     cheers

        jerry

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/aviation-archaeology

Edited May 3, 2022 by brewerjerry

[fishplanebeer]

Of the 4 crew involved 3 were killed and removed from the site and the surviving member was injured but recovered and sent to Canada as a POW, so no issue with there being any human remains at the site.

 

Once I establish who the current land owner is I will obviously obtain their permission in advance to visit, and hopefully be allowed to root around with just a trowel to see what if anything I can find. I suspect over the years many people/groups have investigated the site as it is quite well known locally so my expectations are not high but it will be interesting none the less.

 

As for any MOD regs I can't see there being an issue, unless of course I find a 1000kg bomb or some unspent ammunition!🥴

 

Regards

Colin.

Edited May 4, 2022 by fishplanebeer

[AndyL]

Even with the landowners permission, metal detecting on the site is illegal. The MoD have a strict non interference policy where aircrew have been killed. Licences, at the moment, on sites where  there were fatalities will not be granted. This is due to some sites, where a licence has been given, and during investigation human remains have been found. I have recently seen some communication from the MoD and JCCC which stated that even if there was the chance of disturbing something as small as a finger bone, then no licence would be forthcoming.

 

Also, bear in mind that what is left on site is MoD property as the remains of Luftwaffe aircraft is termed as captured war property.

[Army_Air_Force]

@fishplanebeer

 

Have you tried contacting the archives section of the RAF Museum at Hendon? They claimed many years ago, to have the largest aviation archive in the world. Back in the 1980s, they photocopied a complete B-17 pilot's manual for me at a cost of about £20. These days, if they have the info you are looking for, I think they email it via PDF.

 

T: 020 8358 4873
[email protected]

Archive & Library

RAF Museum London

Grahame Park Way

London, NW9 5LL

[SafetyDad]

On 03/05/2022 at 00:27, fishplanebeer said:

The pilot of the doomed aircraft was the StaffelKapitan (spelling?) of 9/KG55 at the time so it's possible that the aircraft had only very, very recently been transferred to 4/KG55, perhaps a matter of a day or so, and that the new code letters could have been hastily applied by the 9/KG55 ground crew before its transfer using their own staffel colour - possible I suppose and it fits, sort of.

 

From my limited understanding of Luftwaffe formations aircraft were usually deployed as a Gruppe tactical unit so it seems odd that an aircraft from III Gruppe (9 staffel) should be transferred so quickly to II Gruppe as they may have been deployed to completely different locations. It would have made more sense to transfer an aircraft from either 5 or 6 staffel to meet any 4 staffel needs. That said I haven't been able to confirm where II and III Gruppe actually were at this particular time so I guess it's possible they may have been operating in the same general area and the transfer was quite quick.

 

I guess my main stumbling block continues to be the fact that the crash report made a specific reference to Yellow and made no reference to White at all in terms of the aircrafts markings. Of course this means assuming that the report itself was reliable and accurate but if these reports can be inaccurate in such details it devalues their importance when it comes to researching any/all crash sites, which is rather disheartening.

 

Regards

Colin.

 

 

 

If I read this correctly, had the StaffelKapitan had been transferred from 9. to 4.KG55? If so, then it's entirely possible that he brought his aircraft with him - this was not unknown within the Luftwaffe. 

 

SD

[fishplanebeer]

The Luftwaffe records confirm that erroneously the aircraft lost was actually coded G1+MT and that the pilot was still in 9/KG55, however if the transfer had happened very shortly before the aircraft was lost, perhaps the day before, it's possible that they didn't have time to update their files before its demise. However it's clear that there was sufficient time to change the aircraft's codes to G1+EM but red tape delays, even within the Luftwaffe, could logically explain this discrepancy.

 

However what still baffles me is why the crash report refers to the yellow letter M being present when the individual aircraft letter is clearly E, which would have been white for 4/KG55? The staffel letter of M would have been black and overpainted with black, along with the Geschwader codes of G1 discernible in the photos, so wouldn't have been prominent.

 

On the subject of visiting the crash site again the aircraft was fully recovered at the time along with all traces of the crew so if anything still exists it will be the odd nut and bolt at best and nothing more so I would be surprised if the site is on any MOD list. As I said the site is very well known and has been extensively 'researched' during the past 81 years, however to be completely sure how do I check the MOD records to prevent any transgression?

 

Regards

Colin.

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by fishplanebeer

[brewerjerry]

Hi

     Found this on the web 

 

 you may know this already but just incase 

 

"The ID discs of the crew indicated Gruppe III and Oberleutnant J Speck was the Staffelkapitän of 9/
KG55. The aircraft code lettering had apparently been recently changed to G1+EM and the compass 
card which was dated 29th April 1941 also had this lettering, so it was assumed by Air Intelligence that 
the aircraft and its crew had transferred to 4/KG55. The Bordfunker could not be interrogated owing 
to his injuries." 

 

 

cheers

   jerry

[Dandie Dinmont]

Just read through this thread and one thing struck me, does the report specify where the yellow M was located? If not, is it possible that it came from the aircraft’s previous existence as G1+MT and perhaps was located somewhere (possibly on the lower wing?) where it was exposed by the crash or subsequent fire? 
 

Just a thought, great project anyway!

 

Craig.