A few questions about RAF Lancasters (1943- 207 sqn)

[cathasatail]

Hi everyone,

 

With the summer months coming up, I thought that now might be a good time to have a go at commencing a long term project- modelling a 1:72 Lancaster and doing it justice.

 

The aim is to model ED412 (EM-Q) of 207 squadron as it was prior to its final mission- piloted by Pilot Officer Horace Badge (at the age of 20). Having grown up with a picture of "uncle Horace" on the fireplace, my dad started researching our family's history and came across a number of records online which revealed a few details about the final mission and his earlier service career. Unfortunately the Badge crew were lost on the 13th of July 1943 (more information about the events of that mission can be found here).

 

More recently I have started looking for associated documents and in recent years it seems that a great deal more documentation has become available, including:

-Air movement form 78 (link), showing the various movements of the aircraft between squadrons and maintenance units

-I haven't yet searched through the accident record cards (link) or the loss cards (link) but I suspect one of them will relate to ED412

-The payload of the aircraft on its final mission: a 4000lbs "Cookie" and 204 (Edit: 240) incendiary bombs (link) ("More than 700 kilos of incendiary bombs"- Link)

-The aircraft may have been fitted with a "GEE" radio navigation system (link)

 

 

From these documents I can ascertain that this particular Lancaster was:

-Assigned the code "EM-Q" and was flown by 207 Squadron from RAF Langar

-A Mk1 Lancaster with Merlin XX engines

-Carried a "Cookie" and incendiary bombs as its final payload

 

--------------------------------

So, the questions that I'd appreciate some help with:

*(Green + bold = information added from replies below)

 

1: Roundel/code colours

With the "EM-Q" code on the side of the fuselage, would this be red or grey?

And what type of roundels would have been used?

(Example variations are illustrated on this site (link))

--> Red (potentially XX*X or X*XX; ED413 shows XX*X style on port side)

--> C1 type roundels

 

2: Dispersal area

With the dispersal areas at RAF Langar in 1943, would it be appropriate to model the aircraft on a typical "Frying pan" dispersal area? (for example: link)

--> Yes

 

3: Paint colours

When it comes to painting the camouflage, my go-to choice of paint is Vallejo Model Air- does anyone happen to know or have experience of the most appropriate colours to go for, for the brown and green tones?

--> Complicated area, I'll look further into it

--> Comprehensive information in replies below courtesy of @Casey

 

4: Photos of ED412 itself?

One particular Swiss forum thread about ED412 (linked here) contains two pictures of Lancasters:

 

Is there any way to ascertain whether these photos do indeed show ED412?

 

5: Modelling flaps down?

When parked on the dispersal area, prior to engine start, would the Lancaster's flaps be extended or retracted?

--> Flaps extended

 

6: To model an exposed engine or not?

Presumably an engine's cowling would have been replaced way before any armament was loaded onto the aircraft? Part of me wants to add the visual interest of an exposed and detailed Merlin XX engine, yet I also appreciate that this might not be entirely realistic/representative.

--> Unlikely but not impossible

 

7: Mission markings/nose art

I am assuming, with no reference photos nor written evidence, that ED412 didn't display any nose art. However, would "mission markings/tallies" be expected on this particular Lancaster?

--> Without sources, presence of bomb tallies is open to interpretation. Forum post (link here) suggests 8 missions of ED412 prior to loss.

 

 

Edit: Additional information from replies below

-ED412 same batch as Lancasters for 617sqn- Operation Chastise- would have had fuselage windows (corroborated here)

-Likely needle-nosed propellors

-Likely short nose blister

 

---------------------------------------

 

 

It would be nice to complete this project around the 13th of July but naturally it will take as long as it takes to model this aircraft, as a tribute to great uncle Horace and the rest of his crew, and do it justice.

 

 

 

Many thanks, and best wishes,

Sam

Edited May 2, 2022 by cathasatail
Content added from replies to this post

[Troy Smith]

53 minutes ago, cathasatail said:

1: Roundel/code colours

With the "EM-Q" code on the side of the fuselage, would this be red or grey?

Red

Note,  codes are an underappreciated area of complexity in RAF markings, there was no 'font' and no running order, (as in either side can read XX*X or X*XX, * being the roundel)   you need to find photos of aircraft of the squadron at a similar time if you do not have an image to work from.

eg  starboard here read EM*O

http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/90th/Orange_TS_122web.jpg

 

These look to be the 48 ich high by 30 inch wide, 6 inch stroke type

 

 

 

53 minutes ago, cathasatail said:

And what type of roundels would have been used?

fuselage C1 type.

Basically what you get in any Lancaster kit or decal sheet.

57 minutes ago, cathasatail said:

3: Paint colours

When it comes to painting the camouflage, my go-to choice of paint is Vallejo Model Air- does anyone happen to know or have experience of the most appropriate colours to go for, for the brown and green tones?

Can of worms.  The most recent Vallejo Model Air with the BS381c codes maybe OK, but Vallejo and the other Spanish companies do not seem to have actually found what RAF colours were...

I got rather cheesed off with various acrylic RAF paints that are poor matches for the museum chips.... so I don't have these to check.

If you are very lucky @Casey may extend research into Vallejo.... 

 

You maybe lucky enough to find out what the fit was for ED412, from the date I presume needle props and the small nose blister, but there are other details, like if this is after the elimination of fuselage windows.

 

OK, a google, looking for code letters order shows this

http://www.sonsofdamien.co.uk/Lancaster BIII ED413.jpg

 

which is ED413, which may help a little,  so port codes run EM*Q

"ED412 - BI - 57Sq Dec42, 207Sq May43, Lost 14Jul43. 108hrs.

ED413 - BIII - 57, 630, 207(EM-P)Sqs; 1651CU Nov44, SOC 27Jan45."

 

 

 

 

If I remember who is the 'go to' Lancaster source, I'll add in a notification.

 

the point on code running order... a Manchester running the other way....

 

 

Finally, a worthwhile investment is this, a reprint of Lancaster at War 1 and 2

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lancaster-Mike-Garbett/dp/1856480550

copies from £3.17 posted....  and it's a thick book, with hundreds of photos, and plenty of veterans stories

 

HTH

[Selwyn]

4 hours ago, cathasatail said:

Hi everyone,

 

With the summer months coming up, I thought that now might be a good time to have a go at commencing a long term project- modelling a 1:72 Lancaster and doing it justice.

 

The aim is to model ED412 (EM-Q) of 207 squadron as it was prior to its final mission- piloted by Pilot Officer Horace Badge (at the age of 20). Having grown up with a picture of "uncle Horace" on the fireplace, my dad started researching our family's history and came across a number of records online which revealed a few details about the final mission and his earlier service career. Unfortunately the Badge crew were lost on the 13th of July 1943 (more information about the events of that mission can be found here).

 

More recently I have started looking for associated documents and in recent years it seems that a great deal more documentation has become available, including:

-Air movement form 78 (link), showing the various movements of the aircraft between squadrons and maintenance units

-I haven't yet searched through the accident record cards (link) or the loss cards (link) but I suspect one of them will relate to ED412

-The payload of the aircraft on its final mission: a 4000lbs "Cookie" and 204 incendiary bombs (link) ("More than 700 kilos of incendiary bombs"- Link)

-The aircraft may have been fitted with a "GEE" radio navigation system (link)

 

 

From these documents I can ascertain that this particular Lancaster was:

-Assigned the code "EM-Q" and was flown by 207 Squadron from RAF Langar

-A Mk1 Lancaster with Merlin XX engines

-Carried a "Cookie" and incendiary bombs as its final payload

 

--------------------------------

So, the questions that I'd appreciate some help with:

 

1: Roundel/code colours

With the "EM-Q" code on the side of the fuselage, would this be red or grey?

And what type of roundels would have been used?

--> Example variations are illustrated on this site (link)

 

2: Dispersal area

With the dispersal areas at RAF Langar in 1943, would it be appropriate to model the aircraft on a typical "Frying pan" dispersal area? (for example: link)

 

3: Paint colours

When it comes to painting the camouflage, my go-to choice of paint is Vallejo Model Air- does anyone happen to know or have experience of the most appropriate colours to go for, for the brown and green tones?

 

4: Photos of ED412 itself?

One particular Swiss forum thread about ED412 (linked here) contains two pictures of Lancasters:

 

Is there any way to ascertain whether these photos do indeed show ED412?

 

5: Modelling flaps down?

When parked on the dispersal area, prior to engine start, would the Lancaster's flaps be extended or retracted?

 

6: To model an exposed engine or not?

Presumably an engine's cowling would have been replaced way before any armament was loaded onto the aircraft? Part of me wants to add the visual interest of an exposed and detailed Merlin XX engine, yet I also appreciate that this might not be entirely realistic/representative.

 

7: Mission markings/nose art

I am assuming, with no reference photos nor written evidence, that ED412 didn't display any nose art. However, would "mission markings/tallies" be expected on this particular Lancaster?

 

---------------------------------------

 

 

It would be nice to complete this project around the 13th of July but naturally it will take as long as it takes to model this aircraft, as a tribute to great uncle Horace and the rest of his crew, and do it justice.

 

 

 

Many thanks, and best wishes,

Sam

A quick foray into  google maps, shows RAF Langar with both  pan and spectacle type dispersals.

 

Selwyn

[stever219]

ED412 was part of the same production batch as the Lanncasters allocated to 617 Squadron for Operation Chastise and would have had the fuselage windows.

 

It's unlikely that any of the engine cowling panels would have been off with the bomb load aboard but not impossible.  I belive that one of the Lancaster at War volumes contains,a description of an incident where an engine problem was identified during start up for a mission.  Apparently the engine was shut down, access platforms positioned, cowlings removed, torches, spanners and screwdrivers wielded, run-up undertaken, cowlings reinstated, access platforms removed, all engines restarted and mission rejoined in very short order.  Whether such an incident occurred to ED412 we're unlikely ever to know but it is a possibility.

[sprue]

5: Modelling flaps down?

When parked on the dispersal area, prior to engine start, would the Lancaster's flaps be extended or retracted?

With the engines stopped the aircraft has no hydraulic pressure and therefore the flaps and bomb doors droop under the effect of gravity.

[Finn]

A good project you have planned Sam, not the squadron in particular but some details of the raid on Turin on that night:

 

https://www.ozatwar.com/12jul43.htm

 

from there the load of that squadrons missing a/c:

 

MISSING. 4 Aircraft have not returned - nothing being heard after take-off. Three of these each carried 1 x 4000 H.C. 40 x 30 lb. incends,. 420 x 4 lb. incends., plus 30 x 4 lb. 'X' type Incends., the remaining aircraft carried 1 x 4000 lb HC 40 x 30lb. Incends, 240 x 4 lb. incend plus 30 x 4 lb 'X' type Incends.

 

The 204 incendiary bombs you mentioned are probably the ones they found in the wreckage, the rest was most likely destroyed in the crash.

 

Jari 

[cathasatail]

Good evening,

 

Thank you to everyone for your helpful and comprehensive replies, it has been really beneficial and has added a great deal of food for thought.

(I have added amendments below each question on the original post to collate this information together)

 

Many thanks, and best wishes,

Sam

[Troy Smith]

4 hours ago, sprue said:

When parked on the dispersal area, prior to engine start, would the Lancaster's flaps be extended or retracted?

With the engines stopped the aircraft has no hydraulic pressure and therefore the flaps and bomb doors droop under the effect of gravity.

New one for me.  I quick photo search shows mainly flaps up on the ground.    

 

Note this from here

https://www.lancaster-archive.com/lancaster - 10 - hyd and pneu systems.pdf

 

"BOMB DOOR CONTROL The bomb doors are opened hydraulically by pushing down the level on the left of the pilot’s seat. The bomb release is inoperative until the bomb doors begin to open which releases two automatic trip switches situated at the front of the bomb bay, one at each side. Note: as fifteen minutes of pumping to necessary to open the bomb doors by hand pump, it is recommended that the bomb doors open opened by the pilot before the engines are switched off, if it is subsequently required to “bomb up”"

 

I'd need to dig out the At War books,   but there are 2 galleries of Lanc photos here https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/uk/raf/

@cathasatail  which are worth a browse

 

There are also some period colour images here, 

well worth a browse,  as shows all sort of colour details

Lancaster service by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

like the above is a reasonably early Lanc, and the internal turret framing is aluminium.

 

I also highly recommend this

 

 

it's shot in late 44, but has a mass of period detail in COLOUR,   it was privately made, and not shown until 1978, as much was classified until then...

"

"The wartime colour film of Lancasters used in in this now re-mastered DVD is the only known to exist. It was de-classified under the "Thirty Year's Rule" in 1978 and so was not available for use in earlier documentary programmes such as "The World At War". Since release, parts of the film have appeared in other Video/DVD's and used on TV. For example, footage was shown by BBC TV last December in their "RAF at 90" programme.

Viewed as a whole, the film reflects a full day of activity at a front line RAF Bomber Base. It shows ground crew changing a Merlin engine, replacement of a rear turret with twin 0.50 inch machine guns rather than four 0.303 inch guns and then the fuelling and bombing up of aircraft. Bombs of various sizes are shown being manhandled on to trolleys then moved by tractor from the bomb dump to have fuses attached before being taken to aircraft and winched up into the bomb bay. Aircrew are shown being fully briefed and getting into flying gear prior to taking off "for a mission to Berlin". The latter section appears "staged" but still reveals what it was like to be in a Lancaster and the near impossibility of getting out if an aircraft was hit by shell or cannon fire from anti aircraft guns or night fighters.

The quality of the footage is astonishing given that the bulk was filmed using a 16mm camera. The interior shots of a fully operational Lancaster (and perhaps the reason for the ban on release until 1978) show the use of all the electronics that became available later in the war for navigation and early warning of night fighter attack.

The commentary is informative and the DVD also has some wonderful extra's that highlight the life of the late Air Commodore H I Cozens who made the film at his own initiative in 1944. In doing so, a moment of history was preserved for those involved and for future generations.""

 

I posted this before

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235101682-nightbombers-film-ww2-colour-film-of-lancaster-operations-maintenance-bomb-loading-briefing-etc/#comment-4242644

 

 

[Troy Smith]

10 hours ago, cathasatail said:

6: To model an exposed engine or not?

Presumably an engine's cowling would have been replaced way before any armament was loaded onto the aircraft? Part of me wants to add the visual interest of an exposed and detailed Merlin XX engine, yet I also appreciate that this might not be entirely realistic/representative.

--> Unlikely but not impossible

If there was a simple fault after an air test, usually in the afternoon,  then this could be being fixed while bombing up.  

Or you could have the engine being closed up, while the bomb tractor approaches,  you may wish to use a little artistic licence to tell a story.

You may find this a worthwhile addition

 

 

as it has tractor, bomb trolleys, a cookie, Small bomb carriers (used for the incendiaries as noted)  and a maintenance tower

 

10 hours ago, cathasatail said:

7: Mission markings/nose art

I am assuming, with no reference photos nor written evidence, that ED412 didn't display any nose art. However, would "mission markings/tallies" be expected on this particular Lancaster?

bomb tallies were common.  In the absence of a photo, you cannot be proved right or wrong, again,  in this case it is a personal model telling a story.

 

HTH

[cathasatail]

Brilliant! Thank you @Troy Smith for taking the time to find these resources, they are a veritable treasure-trove of information.

 

I will certainly be looking to get the bomber resupply set as part of this project, and likely Belcher Bits' SBC's as I suspect twice as many (12) SBC's will be needed than are included in the Airfix set (6)?

 

A quick question about fuselage roundels again, I noticed skimming through the above resources (will have a more in-depth look tomorrow) that a photo labelled as Lancaster B1's of 207 sqn (link here) (date not specified) have A1(?) roundels and white lettering, and a photo labelled as B1's of 44sqn in 1942 (link here) have the C1 roundels.

-I appreciate wikipedia is perhaps not the ideal source to go to, yet I did notice the page indicating Type C1 roundels being introduced in July 1942. With the Badge crew's last mission on 13th July 1942, is it certain that the roundels used would have been C1?

 

All the best, and thanks again,

Sam

Edited May 2, 2022 by cathasatail
Edit: incorrect text has been struck-through (see below)

[Troy Smith]

11 hours ago, cathasatail said:

the Badge crew were lost on the 13th of July 1943

 

43 minutes ago, cathasatail said:

With the Badge crew's last mission on 13th July 1942, is it certain that the roundels used would have been C1?

Your link says 1943. 

I gave information for 1943.

July 1942 they may still have had A1 and Grey (not white) codes,  but one of the  reason for the change was that both were far to visible at night if caught in a searchlight, but I think you meant 1943?

 

cheers

T

[cathasatail]

11 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

 

Your link says 1943. 

I gave information for 1943.

July 1942 they may still have had A1 and Grey (not white) codes,  but one of the  reason for the change was that both were far to visible at night if caught in a searchlight, but I think you meant 1943?

 

cheers

T

You are quite right! Apologies, that's what late-night browsing through Britmodeller gets me...

 

All the best,

Sam

[Casey]

10 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

If you are very lucky @Casey may extend research into Vallejo

I have only very limited data to do any reasonable math on Vallejo paints, but I'll do my best.

 

Here are the cheap/expensive recipe options I've mathematized (real word!). Not much tested, and my Vallejo paint data is VERY limited, so I recommend them only if you have reference material at hand to compare

 

Cheap. If they look close using those, then expensive one will be better.

Spoiler

RAF001 - Light Earth - Flat
    Suggested using total of 22 parts (DE00: 1.74)
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 10
        71.001 White: 10
        71.057 Black: 1
        71.003 Red RLM23: 1

RAF002 - Dark Earth - Flat
    Suggested using total of 30 parts (DE00: 1.09)
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 19
        71.001 White: 6
        71.057 Black: 3
        71.003 Red RLM23: 2

RAF003 - Light Green - Flat
    Suggested using total of 5 parts (DE00: 1.82)
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 2
        71.001 White: 2
        71.057 Black: 1

RAF004 - Dark Green - Flat
    Suggested using total of 4 parts (DE00: 1.28)
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 2
        71.001 White: 1
        71.057 Black: 1

RAF005 - Extra Dark Sea Green - Flat
    Suggested using total of 6 parts (DE00: 0.50)
        71.001 White: 2
        71.007 Olive Green: 3
        71.057 Black: 1

RAF006 - Grey Green - Flat
    Suggested using total of 37 parts (DE00: 1.17)
        71.001 White: 18
        71.007 Olive Green: 14
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 4
        71.057 Black: 1

RAF007 - Medium Sea Grey - Flat
    Suggested using total of 6 parts (DE00: 1.76)
        71.001 White: 5
        71.057 Black: 1

RAF008 - Dark Sea Grey - Flat
    Suggested using total of 3 parts (DE00: 1.02)
        71.001 White: 2
        71.057 Black: 1

RAF009 - Extra Dark Sea Grey - Flat
    Suggested using total of 5 parts (DE00: 0.53)
        71.001 White: 3
        71.057 Black: 2

RAF010 - Ocean Grey - Flat
    Suggested using total of 5 parts (DE00: 1.85)
        71.001 White: 3
        71.057 Black: 1
        71.007 Olive Green: 1

RAF011 - Light Slate Grey - Flat
    Suggested using total of 17 parts (DE00: 1.86)
        71.001 White: 7
        71.007 Olive Green: 9
        71.003 Red RLM23: 1

RAF012 - Dark Slate Grey - Flat
    Suggested using total of 11 parts (DE00: 1.21)
        71.001 White: 4
        71.007 Olive Green: 6
        71.003 Red RLM23: 1

RAF013 - Sky Grey - Flat
    Suggested using total of 23 parts (DE00: 1.67)
        71.001 White: 20
        71.057 Black: 2
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 1

RAF014 - Sky - Flat
    Suggested using total of 25 parts (DE00: 1.85)
        71.001 White: 20
        71.007 Olive Green: 1
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 3
        71.057 Black: 1

RAF015 - Deep Sky - Flat
    Suggested using total of 6 parts (DE00: 1.82)
        71.004 Blue: 3
        71.001 White: 2
        71.003 Red RLM23: 1

RAF016 - Sky Blue - Flat
    Suggested using total of 26 parts (DE00: 4.05) - (approximate color)
        71.001 White: 25
        71.057 Black: 1

RAF017 - Azure Blue - Flat
    Suggested using total of 19 parts (DE00: 1.97)
        71.001 White: 16
        71.004 Blue: 2
        71.003 Red RLM23: 1

RAF018 - Light Mediteranean Blue - Flat
    Suggested using total of 11 parts (DE00: 1.52)
        71.001 White: 7
        71.057 Black: 1
        71.004 Blue: 2
        71.003 Red RLM23: 1

RAF019 - Dark Mediterranean Blue - Flat
    Suggested using total of 6 parts (DE00: 0.82)
        71.004 Blue: 3
        71.001 White: 2
        71.003 Red RLM23: 1

RAF020 - P.R.U. Blue - Flat
    Suggested using total of 13 parts (DE00: 1.80)
        71.001 White: 8
        71.004 Blue: 2
        71.057 Black: 3

RAF021 - Middle Stone - Flat
    Suggested using total of 32 parts (DE00: 1.48)
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 23
        71.001 White: 6
        71.003 Red RLM23: 1
        71.007 Olive Green: 2

RAF023 - Yellow - Flat
    Suggested using total of 1 parts (DE00: 8.94) - (approximate color)
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 1

RAF024 - Red - Flat
    Suggested using total of 10 parts (DE00: 1.57)
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 6
        71.003 Red RLM23: 2
        71.007 Olive Green: 1
        71.001 White: 1

RAF025 - Blue - Flat
    Suggested using total of 5 parts (DE00: 1.64)
        71.004 Blue: 2
        71.001 White: 1
        71.003 Red RLM23: 1
        71.007 Olive Green: 1

RAF027 - Matt Red - Flat
    Suggested using total of 40 parts (DE00: 3.52) - (approximate color)
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 14
        71.003 Red RLM23: 23
        71.001 White: 2
        71.057 Black: 1

RAF028 - Matt Blue - Flat
    Suggested using total of 6 parts (DE00: 2.25)
        71.004 Blue: 3
        71.001 White: 2
        71.003 Red RLM23: 1

More expensive.

Spoiler

RAF001 - Light Earth - Flat
    Suggested using total of 25 parts (DE00: 1.07)
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 12
        71.001 White: 11
        71.057 Black: 1
        71.003 Red RLM23: 1

RAF002 - Dark Earth - Flat
    Suggested using total of 35 parts (DE00: 0.64)
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 23
        71.001 White: 7
        71.057 Black: 3
        71.003 Red RLM23: 2

RAF003 - Light Green - Flat
    Suggested using total of 36 parts (DE00: 0.55)
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 18
        71.001 White: 11
        71.057 Black: 7

RAF004 - Dark Green - Flat
    Suggested using total of 23 parts (DE00: 0.47)
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 9
        71.001 White: 4
        71.057 Black: 3
        71.003 Red RLM23: 1
        71.007 Olive Green: 6

RAF005 - Extra Dark Sea Green - Flat
    Suggested using total of 22 parts (DE00: 0.28)
        71.001 White: 7
        71.007 Olive Green: 12
        71.057 Black: 3

RAF006 - Grey Green - Flat
    Suggested using total of 37 parts (DE00: 1.17)
        71.001 White: 18
        71.007 Olive Green: 14
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 4
        71.057 Black: 1

RAF007 - Medium Sea Grey - Flat
    Suggested using total of 33 parts (DE00: 1.25)
        71.001 White: 28
        71.057 Black: 5

RAF008 - Dark Sea Grey - Flat
    Suggested using total of 13 parts (DE00: 0.23)
        71.001 White: 9
        71.057 Black: 4

RAF009 - Extra Dark Sea Grey - Flat
    Suggested using total of 29 parts (DE00: 0.33)
        71.001 White: 17
        71.057 Black: 12

RAF010 - Ocean Grey - Flat
    Suggested using total of 37 parts (DE00: 0.36)
        71.001 White: 24
        71.057 Black: 9
        71.007 Olive Green: 4

RAF011 - Light Slate Grey - Flat
    Suggested using total of 22 parts (DE00: 0.67)
        71.001 White: 9
        71.007 Olive Green: 12
        71.003 Red RLM23: 1

RAF012 - Dark Slate Grey - Flat
    Suggested using total of 38 parts (DE00: 0.17)
        71.001 White: 14
        71.007 Olive Green: 21
        71.003 Red RLM23: 3

RAF013 - Sky Grey - Flat
    Suggested using total of 26 parts (DE00: 0.77)
        71.001 White: 23
        71.057 Black: 2
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 1

RAF014 - Sky - Flat
    Suggested using total of 28 parts (DE00: 0.80)
        71.001 White: 23
        71.007 Olive Green: 1
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 3
        71.057 Black: 1

RAF015 - Deep Sky - Flat
    Suggested using total of 18 parts (DE00: 0.47)
        71.004 Blue: 11
        71.001 White: 5
        71.003 Red RLM23: 2

RAF016 - Sky Blue - Flat
    Suggested using total of 26 parts (DE00: 4.05) - (approximate color)
        71.001 White: 25
        71.057 Black: 1

RAF017 - Azure Blue - Flat
    Suggested using total of 20 parts (DE00: 1.76)
        71.001 White: 17
        71.004 Blue: 2
        71.003 Red RLM23: 1

RAF018 - Light Mediteranean Blue - Flat
    Suggested using total of 23 parts (DE00: 1.25)
        71.001 White: 15
        71.057 Black: 2
        71.004 Blue: 4
        71.003 Red RLM23: 2

RAF019 - Dark Mediterranean Blue - Flat
    Suggested using total of 29 parts (DE00: 0.58)
        71.004 Blue: 15
        71.001 White: 9
        71.003 Red RLM23: 5

RAF020 - P.R.U. Blue - Flat
    Suggested using total of 14 parts (DE00: 0.70)
        71.001 White: 8
        71.004 Blue: 2
        71.057 Black: 3
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 1

RAF021 - Middle Stone - Flat
    Suggested using total of 32 parts (DE00: 1.48)
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 23
        71.001 White: 6
        71.003 Red RLM23: 1
        71.007 Olive Green: 2

RAF023 - Yellow - Flat
    Suggested using total of 1 parts (DE00: 8.94) - (approximate color)
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 1

RAF024 - Red - Flat
    Suggested using total of 15 parts (DE00: 0.40)
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 10
        71.003 Red RLM23: 3
        71.007 Olive Green: 1
        71.001 White: 1

RAF025 - Blue - Flat
    Suggested using total of 6 parts (DE00: 0.77)
        71.004 Blue: 3
        71.001 White: 1
        71.003 Red RLM23: 1
        71.007 Olive Green: 1

RAF027 - Matt Red - Flat
    Suggested using total of 40 parts (DE00: 3.52) - (approximate color)
        71.002 Medium Yellow: 14
        71.003 Red RLM23: 23
        71.001 White: 2
        71.057 Black: 1

RAF028 - Matt Blue - Flat
    Suggested using total of 6 parts (DE00: 2.25)
        71.004 Blue: 3
        71.001 White: 2
        71.003 Red RLM23: 1

 

But to not to be super theoretical, I've Professionally Measured Precise Amount of Paints using "Eyeballing and drops counting" method (and also using cheap recipes... those are very small bottles that Vallejo is making indeed!)

 

 

Mixed them up, and made an (also professional!) set of paint chips.

Here is the result:

Light Green was most off, as predicted by my math.

 

You be the judge there.

 

Alternatively look at my more precise recipes if you are into it.

 

I have more here:

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Casey

[Finn]

Here is a Lancaster with an engine being worked on with a trolley of SBCs ready to be loaded:

 

 

if it was just minor engine maintenance, i.e. no run up or power applied then it might be possible work could be done with the a/c loaded. In the case of Small Bomb Containers, the most common load had 90 x 4lb incendiaries, or 8 x 30lb incendiaries per SBC. The 30 x 4lb "X" mentioned above had an explosive charge added to it to deter fire fighting and they were added to the regular 4lb incendiary load in the SBC.

 

Jari

[Pete in Lincs]

Just in case anyone is wondering, Night Bombers was filmed at RAF Hemswell, Lincs.

[cathasatail]

Afternoon everyone,

 

Thank you all again so very much for your help!

And @Casey what an incredible abundance of information, which will definitely come in handy for this project, thank you!

 

Best wishes,

Sam

[SafetyDad]

OK @cathasatail, here's a little more (admittedly circumstantial) evidence for you.

 

No pics found yet of ED412, but here is her sister

 

 

 

from here

 

 

This corroborates what has been offered by previous posters, namely needle prop blades, fuselage roundel type and small nose blister. Note also the shrouded  exhausts and the absence of any H2S blister. Sadly, we can't see the fuselage to check for windows, but I feel that issue has been pretty conclusively addressed - she would have had them.   

 

I also turned up pics of other 207 Sq Lancasters that give us a feel for Codes and Roundels

 

 

A slightly later machine but not too far away in serial number terms - she also has fuselage windows

 

 

(This last one is intended to show the code placement from the Port side - ignore the roundels as this is a much earlier machine)

 

From here

 

 

(The budget combined version of Lancaster at War 1 &2)

 

I think the pics show that 207 used EM@? on both port and starboard sides.

 

Not as good as a pic of your chosen aircraft, but methodically providing some contextual evidence to help you decide.

 

HTH

 

SD

[stever219]

@cathasatail with reference to point 4 in your original post I think the second image is of a 550 Squadron aeroplane taken quite late in the war.  Other copies of this image appear to show a Rebecca-style yagi antenna above the outer starboard wing.  I’ve an idea that there was quite a lengthy thread on here about this but I’m damned if I can find it just now.

[Finn]

Here is a pic of another 207 Lanc:

 

 

Jari

[cathasatail]

Good evening!

 

Many thanks, as always, to everyone for their invaluable support and help in answering some of these dilemmas.

As I now have some free time, I have created a build thread (which can be found here):

 

I did come across the "loss card" for ED412, shown below:

 

 

In terms of payload, it shows:

-1x 4,000 H.C  (presumably the "Cookie")

-2x90x4 I.B (incendiaries)

-3x8x30 I.B (incendiaries)

 

Now, the 4000lbs "Cookie" I can understand, but I am having a spot of difficulty working out how the number of incendiaries that were carried. Would the above combinations have been solely contained within SBC's (small bomb containers)? And if so, how many would have been carried- the card seems to suggest 5 containers in total (but I could be wrong)?

 

Best wishes,

Sam

[Finn]

On 5/16/2022 at 9:53 AM, cathasatail said:

I did come across the "loss card" for ED412, shown below:

 

In terms of payload, it shows:

-1x 4,000 H.C  (presumably the "Cookie")

-2x90x4 I.B (incendiaries)

-3x8x30 I.B (incendiaries)

 

Now, the 4000lbs "Cookie" I can understand, but I am having a spot of difficulty working out how the number of incendiaries that were carried. Would the above combinations have been solely contained within SBC's (small bomb containers)? And if so, how many would have been carried- the card seems to suggest 5 containers in total (but I could be wrong)?

 

Best wishes,

Sam

 

The load would be 2 SBCs each with 90 4lb incendiaries and 3 SBC each with 8 30lb incen. so you are correct 5 SBCs in total. 

 

Jari

[Finn]

Sam here is some diplomatic info that refers to events on 12/13 July 1943:

 

https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/9046

 

Jari

[cathasatail]

Hi,

 

Whilst building the Airfix kit, another query cropped up.

I'm relatively certain that ED412 was unlikely to have carried either the H2S radar, nor the FN-64 mid-lower turret, and so Airfix have helpfully provided a blanking plate/plug to fill the space that was left. On images of the BBMF Lancaster (PA474) it is easy to see the presence of said blanking plate- as can be seen here.

 

However, I'm unsure as to whether this space, and indeed the blanking plate, would have been provided right from when production began. I only ask because some rather excellent builds of relatively new Lancaster kits show an absence of the space and any corresponding blanking plate- as evidenced here. Would ED412's fuselage likely have had a blanking plate, or would it have been a smooth rear fuselage? (Contemporary photographs of sufficient detail have so far made it a bit of a struggle trying to pin this down).

 

Edit: There is this image from 1942 of R5689 (courtesy of Etienne du Plessis), which looks like it might have a blanking plate? (Although it is hard to tell):

 

 

On 5/18/2022 at 10:49 PM, Finn said:

 

The load would be 2 SBCs each with 90 4lb incendiaries and 3 SBC each with 8 30lb incen. so you are correct 5 SBCs in total. 

 

Jari

 

On 5/19/2022 at 2:17 AM, Finn said:

Sam here is some diplomatic info that refers to events on 12/13 July 1943:

 

https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/9046

 

Jari

 

Thank you ever so much Jari for your help with clarifying the payload, and for linking to the telegram- it certainly makes for very interesting reading, and I really appreciate the time that you put into digging it out!

 

Many thanks, and best wishes,

Sam

Edited May 26, 2022 by cathasatail

[dogsbody]

The Lancaster design was based on the Manchester, which was originally to have had a retractable ventral turret. That turret was usually not fitted as it caused too much air drag when lowered into position. That space was used later as a mounting spot for H2S radar and the FN-64 ventral turret.

Due to wartime commitments, I would say the blanking would be in that place all through production.

 

 

 

Chris

[fishplanebeer]

When it comes to the flaps I have pics of Lancs 'at rest', resting, being serviced and being bombed up, and the flap positions vary from not deployed, partially deployed to fully deployed regardless of what is happening so you have full license in this regard.

 

Regards

Colin.