Overpainting Day Fighter Scheme in SEAC: yellow leading edges?

[Hamiltonian]

I'm just getting my act together to start modelling a late-war SEAC Spit, which sported the factory-supplied Day Fighter Scheme, complete with Sky tail band, with the large roundels painted over in Dark Green and replaced with SEAC roundels.

But I wonder what happened to the yellow leading edges, which weren't used in SEAC. Were these supplied as standard with DFS (and then painted over, like the roundels), or were they not part of the standard scheme, but added at point of delivery in the European theatre?

[Troy Smith]

13 hours ago, Hamiltonian said:

Were these supplied as standard with DFS (and then painted over, like the roundels), or were they not part of the standard scheme,

not that clear

 

 

better seen here

 

 

looks to be that the yellow leading edges were factory standard for DFS.

 

[Giorgio N]

Pictures of Spitfire XIV wearing DFS in this theatre do not show yellow leading edges. With all pictures being B/W and often of not great quality, it is hard to tell if the leading edges were originally yellow and were then repainted or if the yellow areas were never there, A couple pictures may hint at the presence of very slightly different paint on the leading edges (meaning a repaint in theatre of that area), others do not... however leading edges are also often hit by light differently and this may explain that slight difference in the finish. In any case, the camo scheme always look properly carried onto the leading edge.

[Paul J]

Never known or seen  to be yellow leading edges to SEAC aircraft of any type in that theatre. White chord wise bands around the wings and tail areas yes but not the yellow.

[Hamiltonian]

Thanks all.

Yes, I knew that yellow leading edges were not used in SEAC, presumably because they were in use by the Japanese as a recognition mark. I was just wondering if they had to be painted out on receipt of aircraft in DFS camouflage, like the large, red-centred roundels. In situations where the Ocean Grey was not repainted, the painted-out roundels lead to noticeable arcs of Dark Green transgressing the Ocean Grey areas of the camo pattern. So I was thinking that the yellow leading edges, if supplied, would produce the same effect--outside the SEAC white stripe, there would presumably be a strip of Dark Green crossing any Ocean Grey that reached the outer leading edge, again interrupting the camo pattern.

 

The photographs from @Troy Smith imply that the aircraft would indeed have arrived complete with yellow stripes, so I need to think about providing a "painted out" look in that area of my model.

[mhaselden]

Yellow wing leading edges, wingtips and cowling undersides were applied as recognition markings to Mohawks in SEAC.  It's not germane to the OP's question...but it's factually incorrect to state that no SEAC aircraft wore yellow recognition markings.  

[JackG]

Would looking at the Spitfire production page be of any guidance?   Chose the air frame serial you are portraying and see if it first served with a European base squadron.  If it went direct from factory to a SEAC theater unit, then less likely they bothered with the yellow stripes?   Am only thinking this way as the opening post mentions a late war setting - unless distribution of the Spitfire, even at that time, was still hectic and last minute changes were still the norm. 

[EwenS]

3 hours ago, JackG said:

Would looking at the Spitfire production page be of any guidance?   Chose the air frame serial you are portraying and see if it first served with a European base squadron.  If it went direct from factory to a SEAC theater unit, then less likely they bothered with the yellow stripes?   Am only thinking this way as the opening post mentions a late war setting - unless distribution of the Spitfire, even at that time, was still hectic and last minute changes were still the norm. 

I looked into this a couple of years back. Virtually all (IIRC there may have been one or two exceptions only) the Mk.XIV went from production line to MU for packing and dispatch to India. 

 

There were only 3 squadrons of them by the end of the war, 132, 17 & 11 re-equipping in that order during 1945. Quickest way of checking is via the searchable database at allspitfirepilots.org which has all the individual aircraft histories. Put in the Mark number (XIV) in the “Model” box and the squadron number with an S suffix in the “Notes” box and voila, a list of (almost) all the aircraft of that Mark used by that squadron.

https://allspitfirepilots.org/aircraft

 

You will find photos of 132 squadron aircraft on Smiter in Aug/Sept 1945 on the following page. None appear to have leading edge markings nor signs of overpainting.

http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/ESCORT/Galleries/SMITER_Gllery_2.htm

 

 

[Giorgio N]

Pictures of Spitfires on the production line or straight after seem to be pretty inconsistent. Some pictures clearly show the presence of the yellow leading edges, see the one mid down this page:

 

https://disciplesofflight.com/supermarine-spitfire-shadow-factory-ww2/

 

Others seem to show no leading edge markings, like this one showing the final assembly of Spitfire XVIs

 

http://spitfiresite.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/23-23-7557926480_17cc030455_k.jpg

 

And what about this one, is there a yellow leading edge or not ?

 

https://www.prints-online.com/royal-aeronautical-society/photographic/supermarine-spitfire-manufacture-october-1943-9886847.html#modalClose

 

In any case should I build a SEAC Spitfire XIV, I would probably not add any sign of repainting over the leading edges, for the reason that most pictures seem to show no sign of thi while only a couple may hint at some repainting. If the leading edges were repainted, this was done in a very neat way with no great difference between the "new" paint and the one originally applied to the rest of the wing

 

 

 

 

[Hamiltonian]

7 hours ago, JackG said:

Would looking at the Spitfire production page be of any guidance?   Chose the air frame serial you are portraying and see if it first served with a European base squadron.  If it went direct from factory to a SEAC theater unit, then less likely they bothered with the yellow stripes?   Am only thinking this way as the opening post mentions a late war setting - unless distribution of the Spitfire, even at that time, was still hectic and last minute changes were still the norm. 

 

4 hours ago, EwenS said:

I looked into this a couple of years back. Virtually all (IIRC there may have been one or two exceptions only) the Mk.XIV went from production line to MU for packing and dispatch to India. 

 

There were only 3 squadrons of them by the end of the war, 132, 17 & 11 re-equipping in that order during 1945. Quickest way of checking is via the searchable database at allspitfirepilots.org which has all the individual aircraft histories. Put in the Mark number (XIV) in the “Model” box and the squadron number with an S suffix in the “Notes” box and voila, a list of (almost) all the aircraft of that Mark used by that squadron.

https://allspitfirepilots.org/aircraft

 

You will find photos of 132 squadron aircraft on Smiter in Aug/Sept 1945 on the following page. None appear to have leading edge markings nor signs of overpainting.

http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/ESCORT/Galleries/SMITER_Gllery_2.htm

 

 

Thanks for this. I have the equivalent information for "my" Spitfire from Morgan and Shacklady's tome.

I'm aiming to build RM908, of 152 Sq. I wrote "late war" because it was built, shipped and arrived in India during the war, but seems to have gone into operation post-war. It's listed only as "ACSEA" in the databases, but photographs exist of it in 152 markings, and there's an old decal set with suitable markings.

 

It started out as part of my project to build a series of aircraft associated with my late father's various postings during and after WWII, and I have this photograph from his album, marked "Tengah, February 1946":

But I slightly cocked up the dating on this one--he was at Tengah until 152 disbanded there in March, and this aircraft, from its listed ACSEA date (26/6/46), must have gone to the renumbered 136 Sq. But I've grown to like this particular Spitfire, so I'll build it anyway.

 

 

 

[Hamiltonian]

2 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

In any case should I build a SEAC Spitfire XIV, I would probably not add any sign of repainting over the leading edges, for the reason that most pictures seem to show no sign of thi while only a couple may hint at some repainting. If the leading edges were repainted, this was done in a very neat way with no great difference between the "new" paint and the one originally applied to the rest of the wing

Thanks. I've no doubt that's true when the entire upper camouflage scheme was redone, in Dark Earth and Dark Green, but I was wondering specifically about those Spitfires (like my chosen subject) in which the original DFS was left largely untouched, except for the roundels being painted out in Dark Green. It would seem odd to overpaint areas that "should be" Ocean Grey in Dark Green (as we often see in the area of the roundels), but to carefully overpaint the leading edges in Ocean Grey and Dark Green, as appropriate.

 

That said, the overpainted roundels in @EwenS pictures are quite a striking contrast with the underlying camouflage, but the leading edges (from what I can make out) don't show the same effect. It was that sort of thing that made me wonder if the yellow leading edges were applied locally, rather than at the production stage.

[Graham Boak]

The yellow leading edge, like the Sky fuselage band and spinner, was a requirement for RAF Fighter Command in the UK.  This would be applied at the MU to the appropriate examples.  It would not have been present on aircraft intended from the factory to go to SEAC, via an MU intended for overseas delivery.

[Hamiltonian]

48 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

The yellow leading edge, like the Sky fuselage band and spinner, was a requirement for RAF Fighter Command in the UK.  This would be applied at the MU to the appropriate examples.  It would not have been present on aircraft intended from the factory to go to SEAC, via an MU intended for overseas delivery.

But it does seem that aircraft were (at least occasionally) turning up in the Southeast Asian theatre in the "wrong" camouflage with the "wrong" roundels, and with a fuselage band. RM908 seems to be an example of this--you can see the aircraft by scrolling down to the first B&W image on this page: http://www.152hyderabad.co.uk/html/old_dairy_2014.html

The fact that everything else about the aircraft seems to have been in line with it having been painted for the European Theatre is what prompted my query about the yellow leading edge.

 

Or have I got completely the wrong end of the stick, somewhere?

[Graham Boak]

In your own words "at least occasionally", odd things happened.   There is a well-copied photo of a Hurricane apparently in Day Fighter colours and full FC trim, apparently serving in an Indian squadron on the North West Frontier.  There are a number of photos of aircraft with "exchanged" colours in otherwise standard schemes - not counting examples in the Middle East where it was not uncommon.

[Phoenix44]

11 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

Pictures of Spitfires on the production line or straight after seem to be pretty inconsistent. Some pictures clearly show the presence of the yellow leading edges, see the one mid down this page:

 

https://disciplesofflight.com/supermarine-spitfire-shadow-factory-ww2/

 

Others seem to show no leading edge markings, like this one showing the final assembly of Spitfire XVIs

 

http://spitfiresite.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/23-23-7557926480_17cc030455_k.jpg

 

And what about this one, is there a yellow leading edge or not ?

 

https://www.prints-online.com/royal-aeronautical-society/photographic/supermarine-spitfire-manufacture-october-1943-9886847.html#modalClose

 

In any case should I build a SEAC Spitfire XIV, I would probably not add any sign of repainting over the leading edges, for the reason that most pictures seem to show no sign of thi while only a couple may hint at some repainting. If the leading edges were repainted, this was done in a very neat way with no great difference between the "new" paint and the one originally applied to the rest of the wing

 

 

 

 

But the production line shots also always clearly show that a number of areas were unpainted, notably the wing fillet and engine covers. What I hadn't noticed before in that photo of the clipped wing aircraft is that the wing fillet cuts away the bottom of the roundel, so presumably that had to be painted/repainted as well. Painting of Spitfires is rather mysterious, given the relatively large areas that required painting post-construction. 

 

In other words, I don't see why yellow leading edges couldn't have been applied whenever the rest was painted.

[Graham Boak]

Presumably they could, and if the serial was known to have been allocated to a UK source then perhaps they did.  However there would be no reason for painting this on an aircraft known to be going overseas.  This is a wartime organisation pouring out aircraft in large quantities, and under fairly strict supervision.  Not doing whatever they fancied on the day.

[Phoenix44]

Is anybody suggesting they did whatever they fancy on the day? 

 

The factory shots do show sky bands but not (yet) yellow leading edges. If the sky band is a UK requirement only then presumably its being applied at the factory to aircraft that the factory understands are going to the UK.

[Hamiltonian]

My understanding, from reading around on this site and others, is that occasionally batches of aircraft prepared for one theatre ended up being shipped to another, and needed to be repainted. @EwenS's "Smiter" link certainly seems to show a whole flight of Mark XIVs with what looks like DFS and tail bands, with the roundels overpainted in some dark shade. Given the date of the photographs, one can see why aircraft intended for the European theatre might be starting to trickle towards South East Asia. And, again given the date, one can see why people might not bother going the whole hog and repainting the entire aircraft with Dark Earth / Dark Green.

 

I'm completely happy with the idea that the wartime production system generally fitted out aircraft for destinations that they subsequently reached. But it's evident that sometimes that didn't happen and that my chosen aircraft is one of those examples---hence my question about whether aircraft intended for the UK would routinely be marked with yellow leading edges before leaving the factory, because if that was the routine, on this occasion someone was going to have to deal with it in South East Asia.

 

I can pick out one aircraft in the "Smiter" gallery that appears to have a normal alternation of pale and dark paint on the leading edge outside of the white SEAC stripe, despite the fact the roundel overpainting of aircraft in another view is noticeably darker than either camouflage colour. So my idea that I might need to simulate an overpainted yellow stripe in my aircraft doesn't seem to be necessarily true (given that I think I have a counterexample). So I'll probably leave well alone. Thanks, everyone.

[EwenS]

11 hours ago, Hamiltonian said:

My understanding, from reading around on this site and others, is that occasionally batches of aircraft prepared for one theatre ended up being shipped to another, and needed to be repainted. @EwenS's "Smiter" link certainly seems to show a whole flight of Mark XIVs with what looks like DFS and tail bands, with the roundels overpainted in some dark shade. Given the date of the photographs, one can see why aircraft intended for the European theatre might be starting to trickle towards South East Asia. And, again given the date, one can see why people might not bother going the whole hog and repainting the entire aircraft with Dark Earth / Dark Green.

 

I'm completely happy with the idea that the wartime production system generally fitted out aircraft for destinations that they subsequently reached. But it's evident that sometimes that didn't happen and that my chosen aircraft is one of those examples---hence my question about whether aircraft intended for the UK would routinely be marked with yellow leading edges before leaving the factory, because if that was the routine, on this occasion someone was going to have to deal with it in South East Asia.

 

I can pick out one aircraft in the "Smiter" gallery that appears to have a normal alternation of pale and dark paint on the leading edge outside of the white SEAC stripe, despite the fact the roundel overpainting of aircraft in another view is noticeably darker than either camouflage colour. So my idea that I might need to simulate an overpainted yellow stripe in my aircraft doesn't seem to be necessarily true (given that I think I have a counterexample). So I'll probably leave well alone. Thanks, everyone.

 

 

The first Mk.XIV for SEAC were shipped from the U.K. in January 1945. 132 squadron began to receive them in May. Plenty of time for the ocean voyage via the Med and erection time in India. And the numbers involved by Aug 1945 amounted to more than a trickle.

 

i must admit I see the retention of the DFS as more of a deliberate policy. Otherwise why not repaint them before issue to 132? There seems to have been time. All 3 squadrons initially equipped were earmarked for Operation Zipper with 132, 17 and part of 11 squadron due to be flown from the escort carriers Smiter & Trumpeter. Smiter/132 was diverted to Hong Kong. Trumpeter flew off 11 & 17 squadrons to Malaya. So maybe someone considered DFS more suitable.

 

The only alternative explanation I can come up with is that the early aircraft were high backed F.XIV. Later deliveries were low backed FR.XIV. More of the former seem to remain in DFS and more of the latter get DG/DE (it’s a generalisation I know).

 

132 & 17 both got high backed F.XIV (Ginger Lacey CO of 17 rejected the low backed version). 11 got low backed FR.XIV, but decent quality photos of these seem to be as rare as hens teeth. What colours were they in. So something else to think about.

 

 

Edit:- Now found my spreadsheet. I identified 219 Spitfire XIV arriving in India between 4 Feb and 14 Aug 1945 with another 37 in transit at that point.  In all another 143 arrived after 15 August 1945 up until 3 Jan 1946 for a total of 362. That is nearly 38% of the total production of that Mark. Of those I only found 1 that had seen service in Europe. RM742 reportedly spent some time with 350 squadron from Aug 1944. It stuck out as it was the last RM serial to be delivered and was over a month later than other serials in that sequence. What is noticeable is that there was not great runs of consecutive serials. At most it is 3 or 4 before the next gap. So how they were being picked in the UK for delivery to India is a mystery to me but probably helps explain why so many ended up in India in DFS as the eventual destination was probably unknown.

Edited May 1, 2022 by EwenS