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Eduard/ICM 1/48 Do 17Z


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About time I got my build up and running or I won't stand a chance of finishing it before my next GB commitment looms into view!

I got this kit last year on an offer from Jadlam and it ended up costing me the same as the standard package from ICM but comes with masks, etched brass, resin wheels and some more interesting colour schemes.

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I quite like the box art too.

Just to prove that the goodies are still securely wrapped;

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Certainly fills the box doesn't it.

Here's the etched set, not usually a fan of this stuff but it would be wrong to not try to use it;

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And the resin goodies, wheels and conversion parts for one of the options;

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Speaking of options, most of the ones are for aircraft from the Battle of Britain in the standard 70/71/65 scheme (meh) but there are others which appeal to me, starting with this pair;

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I do like the look of the one with the black undersides, and no it hasn't got a bad case of the mumps those are flotation devices as the Z-5 was operated over water a lot and they are in the resin goody bag. I like the Greece based one because of the large theatre markings and I have an interest in the MTO, which brings me nicely onto the next set of possibilities;

 

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A proper MTO finish! I like that sand one a lot. Those of you who know my builds will also know that I have a thing for temporary Winter schemes too, so both these appeal. Looks like a have a difficult decision to make in the near future!

 

There is also a Finnish option on the decal sheet but I built an ICM Z-2 as a Finnish Z-3 5 years ago;

 

I enjoyed that build and can't see why this one should be any different, time to pull my finger out and get started!

 

Craig.

 

🇺🇦

Edited by modelling minion
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Hi Craig,

 

looks like a comprehensive package. I've only heard good things about the ICM kit and judging from your superb Finnish build, this one will not be different. Regarding the camo, my vote would be for the Desert Scheme, simply because it is not so common on the Do 17 and because every aircraft looks better in Desert colours :D

 

Cheers

Markus

Edited by Shorty84
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1 hour ago, Shorty84 said:

Hi Craig,

 

looks like a comprehensive package. I've only heard good things about the ICM kit and judging from your superb Finnish build, this one will not be different. Regarding the camo, my vote would be for the Desert Scheme, simply because it is not so common on the Do 17 and because every aircraft looks better in Desert colours :D

 

Cheers

Markus

Thanks Markus,

 

It is a pretty good package, and when on offer for the same price as the base kit it would have been rude not to buy one, well thats my excuse and i'm sticking to it! 😁

 

I really do like the Desert scheme and think that my choice has been narrowed down to that one and the black bellied one.

 

Thank you very much for your kind words regarding my Finnish build, it has been a scheme I had wanted to do for a long time and really enjoyed building it.

 

🇺🇦

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Blatantly hi-jacking Minion's thread to discuss my builds - sorry!

That Eduard instruction booklet (and decal sheet) looks to be a treat! I'll still stick to my plan to build the 1./KG 2 plane from Greece, May 1941, in this GB but as the ICM instructions make no mention of yellow elevators (and wingtips) I'll add at least the former anyway. The Luftwaffe apparently added more and more of the yellow as the war progressed eastward. Which also makes that Revell Ju 88 A-4 kit Piraeus raider boxart scheme look more interesting to be built later this year, but as an A-5.

Back to Craig - and Dorniers - with :popcorn:!

V-P

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7 minutes ago, vppelt68 said:

Blatantly hi-jacking Minion's thread to discuss my builds - sorry!

That Eduard instruction booklet (and decal sheet) looks to be a treat! I'll still stick to my plan to build the 1./KG 2 plane from Greece, May 1941, in this GB but as the ICM instructions make no mention of yellow elevators (and wingtips) I'll add at least the former anyway. The Luftwaffe apparently added more and more of the yellow as the war progressed eastward. Which also makes that Revell Ju 88 A-4 kit Piraeus raider boxart scheme look more interesting to be built later this year, but as an A-5.

Back to Craig - and Dorniers - with :popcorn:!

V-P

Perfectly happy to be hijacked mate, especially by the host!

The aircraft from 3./KG 2 does look good with the large amount of yellow theatre markings, it makes sense that these markings evolved over time so there could be aircraft in use with variations of them at the same time.

My Ju-88 build for the upcoming GB will be a Greece based aircraft, a recce one.

 

4 minutes ago, Potato Pete said:

That looks like an excellent box of goodies. And the desert scheme looks really striking.

 

Pete

Thanks Pete, looks like another vote for the desert scheme!

 

🇺🇦

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That's a hell of a package deal! I'm also voting for the desert scheme, it looks ace. If your previous one is anything to go by, this build will be a real stunner

 

James

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2 hours ago, 81-er said:

That's a hell of a package deal! I'm also voting for the desert scheme, it looks ace. If your previous one is anything to go by, this build will be a real stunner

 

James

Thanks James.👍

 

I have been looking into the desert schemed aircraft, or rather I should say trying to as there is virtually nothing out there other than profile drawings (and we all know how reliable they are!) and one grainy picture I can find. Even the profiles disagree with each other as some show it as Eduard do with just plain sand over blue (more on that later) and other show varying amounts of green splotches.

Eduard suggest a coat of RLM 79 over the upper surfaces (which I can believe) but also RLM 78 on the undersides which I have my doubts about. All the Do 17Z's would have left the factory in the standard bomber scheme of 70/71/65 as far as I know, repainting the upper surfaces in 79 or something locally available (Italian paints were used a lot) I can understand but repainting the undersides in 78 is something I don't think would have happened, it certainly didn't on the Bf 109's or 110's that arrived in their original European colours, but I am happy to be proven wrong. As for the green "blotches" so beloved by the profile artists I wonder if these might just be areas of the original camouflage pattern purposely not overpainted in the 79 (or whatever was used) as this practice is well documented on other Luftwaffe aircraft in the theatre and has the same effect but uses less paint.

If anybody has any thoughts or answers on this I would be very happy to hear them. If I can't find any reasonable proof I will probably build the black bellied Z-5, there are plenty of pictures to back that scheme up.

 

🇺🇦

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Ah Afrika! To be honest, I think you/we can do almost whatever we want to. Was there evidence/documentation/pictures that show the lower surfaces left in RLM 65 or being repainted in RLM 78, no? How about the green blotches then, fresh RLM 80 or RLM 70/71 left unpainted RLM 79 or some italian brown, no? If you/we can't prove one of these options just correct, how can someone prove them incorrect? And after all, they are our models, not theirs. Just build and enjoy :thumbsup:. V-P

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This promises to be an exciting build particularly if you go the desert scheme way craig. 

Do like the look of those resin wheels too.

(has there ever been a 'desert scheme' gb? 🤔)

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17 minutes ago, Dansk said:

This promises to be an exciting build particularly if you go the desert scheme way craig. 

Do like the look of those resin wheels too.

(has there ever been a 'desert scheme' gb? 🤔)

Cheers Paul.

I see that I am going to have to try harder to find corroborating pictures of the desert scheme as it seems to be the most popular.

I don't think that there has ever been a "desert scheme"GB as such, we have had a few MTO GB's but that is restricted to WWII and there have been some nice post war desert schemes. Oh dear, I feel another GB proposal coming on! Must try to resist!

 

🇺🇦

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That's interesting info, Craig, I had no idea some of the earlier arrivals to the MTO kept their RLM 65 undersides 👍 I rather hope you can find sufficient proof that the MTO scheme is right (or at least lack of proof that it's wrong).

 

Paul - I'd be very much up for a desert GB 

 

James

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Hi Craig, 

 

I've never noticed that photos of desert camouflaged Do 17s are so rare. 

I found a photo of the machine Eduard depicts (3U+FU) but it raises more question than it answers: https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/aircrafts-2/dornier_do17/do17-z-3ufu-of-zg26-at-castel-benito-tripolitania-libya-1943/

 

Some observations:

 

To be honest it is not clear from the photo if we see desert or standard camo. 

 

The lower part of the cowling looks to be white, not yellow (although this is not entirely conclusive I admit). 

 

It seems that only the cowl ring is colored, not the complete lower cowl as per Eduard instruction. 

 

The letter next to the lower wing Balkenkreuz is an 'E', not an 'F' as Eduard suggests. This also means that it is not part of the unit code which contains no 'E' but more likely the original Stammkennzeichen which likely is still in place on the lower wing (a common occurrence on Luftwaffe aircraft). 

This would also suggest that the lower camo is still RLM65 as during a repaint the old Stammkennzeichen would have been most probably removed. 

 

In the end this photo does not clarify if the aircraft wore desert colours or not and raises some doubts about Edurds representation of this machine. 

 

Cheers

Markus

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16 hours ago, 81-er said:

That's interesting info, Craig, I had no idea some of the earlier arrivals to the MTO kept their RLM 65 undersides

Yes James, quite a lot of Luftwaffe aircraft used in the MTO were delivered or initially operated there on their standard European colours, such as this Ju-87R;

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Ju-87/StG1-NA/pages/Junkers-Ju-87R2-Stuka-3.StG1-(A5+BL)-over-the-North-African-coast-01.html

 

And this one which shows that the sand coloured paint was painted over the original splinter camo (just about visible);

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Captured_Ju_87B_in_North_Africa_1941.jpg

 

And this nice colour picture of a Bf 109E;

https://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=6666

 

And now my tiny little mind has gone running away with the desire to build a North African based Ju-87!

 

1 hour ago, Shorty84 said:

Hi Craig, 

 

I've never noticed that photos of desert camouflaged Do 17s are so rare. 

I found a photo of the machine Eduard depicts (3U+FU) but it raises more question than it answers: https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/aircrafts-2/dornier_do17/do17-z-3ufu-of-zg26-at-castel-benito-tripolitania-libya-1943/

 

Some observations:

 

To be honest it is not clear from the photo if we see desert or standard camo. 

 

The lower part of the cowling looks to be white, not yellow (although this is not entirely conclusive I admit). 

 

It seems that only the cowl ring is colored, not the complete lower cowl as per Eduard instruction. 

 

The letter next to the lower wing Balkenkreuz is an 'E', not an 'F' as Eduard suggests. This also means that it is not part of the unit code which contains no 'E' but more likely the original Stammkennzeichen which likely is still in place on the lower wing (a common occurrence on Luftwaffe aircraft). 

This would also suggest that the lower camo is still RLM65 as during a repaint the old Stammkennzeichen would have been most probably removed. 

 

In the end this photo does not clarify if the aircraft wore desert colours or not and raises some doubts about Edurds representation of this machine. 

 

Cheers

Markus

That is the one picture that I could find Markus, and I agree completely with your interpretation of it.  I just don't see how anyone can look at that picture and come away with any certainty about any of the colours and markings other than the white theatre band and the number 3 on the fuselage and the letter E under the wings, which Eduard has got wrong and called F!! I really think Eduard dropped the ball on this one, and took a big drink from the cup of wishful thinking.

 

So I am sorry guys but the desert scheme is out, which I am disappointed about as I like desert schemes. SO she will either be black bellied or in the temporary winter scheme.

 

🇺🇦

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Nice choice there Craig. I wish I’d picked up one of these Eduard boxing’s now. 

 

If if it were me I’d go for the Med colour scheme. It’ll be great which ever one you go for, they’re all interesting. 

 

Look forward to some progress. 

 

James

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19 minutes ago, franky boy said:

Nice choice there Craig. I wish I’d picked up one of these Eduard boxing’s now. 

 

If if it were me I’d go for the Med colour scheme. It’ll be great which ever one you go for, they’re all interesting. 

 

Look forward to some progress. 

 

James

Thanks James.

 

Its a good boxing with pretty much all you need to build a Do 17. They do still pop up on Ebay, two of them finished this week and went for around £40 which when you consider the base kit costs over £30 is very good value.

 

As much as I like the Med scheme mate I just can't find anything to support Eduards profile, in fact more that disagrees with it than agrees with it.

 

Made a bit of a start with filling some sink holes and getting a coat of RLM 02 on all the parts that need it, quite a lot it turns out!

 

🇺🇦

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59 minutes ago, modelling minion said:

Thanks James.

 

Its a good boxing with pretty much all you need to build a Do 17. They do still pop up on Ebay, two of them finished this week and went for around £40 which when you consider the base kit costs over £30 is very good value.

 

As much as I like the Med scheme mate I just can't find anything to support Eduards profile, in fact more that disagrees with it than agrees with it.

 

Made a bit of a start with filling some sink holes and getting a coat of RLM 02 on all the parts that need it, quite a lot it turns out!

 

🇺🇦

 

Thanks for the heads up Craig. I’ll pop over to e bay and have a look in a minute. 

 

It sounds like a case of Eduards research being a bit suspect on that one. 

 

James

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Alan Price built the Airfix kit in AMW magazine, November 2014 issue, when the new kit was just released. He used the RLM 78/79/80 scheme on a ZG 26 plane 3U+FU. That came from Xtradecal sheet 72206. He wrote about the photographic interpretation of the pic Shorty84 linked in a previous post, that lead him to choose the paints he used. He deviated from the Xtradecal recommendation of RLM 76/79/71 scheme for that plane. V-P

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39 minutes ago, vppelt68 said:

Alan Price built the Airfix kit in AMW magazine, November 2014 issue, when the new kit was just released. He used the RLM 78/79/80 scheme on a ZG 26 plane 3U+FU. That came from Xtradecal sheet 72206. He wrote about the photographic interpretation of the pic Shorty84 linked in a previous post, that lead him to choose the paints he used. He deviated from the Xtradecal recommendation of RLM 76/79/71 scheme for that plane. V-P

I honestly don't see how anyone can interpret anything from that picture other than the few things that Markus  ( @Shorty84 ) and I pointed out, and the clearest one of those is that the aircraft is definitely not coded 3U+FU, the only certain parts of the code are 3_+E_ and then only because the E is clearly visible under the wing, unless its a conveniently placed smudge of dirt of course and to be honest the picture is that unclear that I can't rule that out. And to be honest I believe Xtradecal about as much as I do Putin, they are not well known for their accuracy.

 

🇺🇦

Edited by modelling minion
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Sometimes the old days when you only had one or two choices with the kit were maybe a blessing in disguise by the sound of it - no need to worry about which one to chose back then😄! As to a desert GB, we did have an "Africa" one a year or so ago, where I did my desert Bf 110.

 

Seriously though, it is your kit so go for whatever you want and maybe not worry too much about total accuracy - bit like me with my so called "Dagger" over in the Falklands GB. Like you I do prefer to get them fairly close to the real thing, but I am gradually trying to stop being a rivet counter like I used to be when younger - life is too short.

 

Best of luck.

 

Pete

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4 hours ago, PeterB said:

Sometimes the old days when you only had one or two choices with the kit were maybe a blessing in disguise by the sound of it - no need to worry about which one to chose back then😄! As to a desert GB, we did have an "Africa" one a year or so ago, where I did my desert Bf 110.

 

Seriously though, it is your kit so go for whatever you want and maybe not worry too much about total accuracy - bit like me with my so called "Dagger" over in the Falklands GB. Like you I do prefer to get them fairly close to the real thing, but I am gradually trying to stop being a rivet counter like I used to be when younger - life is too short.

 

Best of luck.

 

Pete

You are quite right Pete, but I can't build something in a scheme based purely on a profile. I'm not saying that everyone has to be as strict as I am but I wouldn't be happy with the model knowing that there's a very good chance that it is wrong.

 

🇺🇦

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Hi Craig,

 

I hope you find the time to get into this. I'll follow along. I would of also liked to join but have too many GB projects on the go and all in the first half of the year. 

 

I understand you position on the markings. I also find it an irritation as I'm not so much into speculative schemes. However, just to add a little more to the debate. I took a look at the image on the US Archives Site.

 

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/204944587

 

The photo being registered U.S. Air Force 23340 A.C.

 

On 4/29/2022 at 4:49 AM, modelling minion said:

then only because the E is clearly visible under the wing

 

For those who wish to model it I think the 'F' is OK. As you say, there is dirt/staining making it look an 'E'.

 

Do-17 Tripoli 1943

 

Ray

 

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6 hours ago, Ray_W said:

I'll follow along

Always very happy to have you along Ray.👍

Not a great deal to report at the minute as I have been a bit under the weather, done some work on the cockpit area but not much at all other than spraying a fair bit of RLM-02 around and gluing a few small bits together. I hope to get properly stuck in from now as I am a bit better so hopefully a proper update soon.

 

Having looked at the picture from your link (a bit clearer than the one I looked at previously) I think you might be right about the "F" but its not 100% clear, its a pity the handle on the cart is parked so as to perfectly obscure the bottom of the letter on the fuselage, typical!

 

I did notice that the aircraft is recorded as a Do 217 though......

 

🇺🇦

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