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Apache or Viper for Poland?


Slater
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Czech Republic going for the Ah-1Z, ( that the Marines for what ever reason started retiring already :( )

 

So I guess 0oland will opt for the best out there ... Apache I 'd bet!

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6 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Technically from what they can do there are quite a few other Helicopters that are better than the Apache.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero+Christian

could you elaborate a bit please?

"better" in which aspects?

 

some examples I would have in mind:

  • price to firepower relation?
  • speed?
  • camouflage?
  • size to range relation
  • operating costs
  • ...

thanks!

 

 

 

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The AH-64 Apache Longbow has a top speed of 265 kmh,a climb rate of 7,5 m/s,a range of 407 kilometres and a maximum weight of 10423 kg whereas the Kamov Ka-52 has a top speed of 310 kmh,a climb rate of 13,2 m/s,a range of 1200 kilometres and a maximum weight of 11900 kg.The Mil-28 has a top speed of 324 kmh,a climb rate of 13,6 m/s,a range of 1105 kilometres and the maximum weight is 11700 kg.Even the smaller Agusta Mangusta has a top speed of 275 kmh and the climb rate is of 10,2 m/s and the range is of 800 kilometres.The Eurocopter Tiger can reach a maximum speed of 290 kmh,has a better climb rate of 10,7 m/s and the range is 1000 kilometres.The Kamov and the Mil are heavier armed and the armour can resist up to 20 millimetres,the AH-64 Apache Longbow up to 12,7 millimetres.That they will never buy anything else but american built aircraft is well known but technically there are other Helicopters that are more capable.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

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Thanks, know I know what you mean!

The Ka-52 seem to be shot down a lot recently.... not sure if better...

Tiger seems to be expensive and rather .... underdeveloped.

The Mangusta in its Turkish form should be interesting... but small... not sure about costs...

 

The Apache seems to have conquered all politically accepted markets lately... investment into Tiger is limited to France and Spain ... Germany probably should as well now though!

 

Credo: if you can afford it, go Apache...

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Out of the options listed above, I expect that Poland would be more likely spin around with their arms out to the sides and making helicopter sounds with the mouths than buy Russian products. It might seriously bamboozle the Russians if they asked them for a quote though.

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On 4/26/2022 at 10:24 PM, GiampieroSilvestri said:

The Kamov and the Mil are heavier armed and the armour can resist up to 20 millimetres,

When the Russian were in Afghanistan, there were numerous stories of Hinds being shot down from close-range by one man with an AK-47. Legend has it that any captured Hind crew-men would meet an incredibly unpleasant fate at the hands of the Afghans. The locals had many reasons to despise and fear the Hind. 

 

Obviously, since the 1980's, the makers have probably made the Mi-24 a lot more rugged and survivable. In the Cold War, I reckon the Soviets put much more importance in having huge stockpiles of weapons than keeping their crews alive. 

 

Not a criticism of the original poster - just an observation that maybe the Mi-24 was a lot less tough than history would suggest.   

 

Cheers. 

 

Chris. 

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On 4/26/2022 at 10:45 PM, exdraken said:

The Apache seems to have conquered all politically accepted markets lately...

As undoubtedly good as the Apache is, I've read that in Iraq and Afghanistan it proved rather "fragile". I'm assuming that it was simply not designed for the exceptionally hot, high and dusty conditions found in those theatres. Very few weapons-systems have ever been made to work fully in such extreme environments and many have to be radically adapted to function at all. 

 

Cheers.

 

Chris. 

 

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33 minutes ago, spruecutter96 said:

As undoubtedly good as the Apache is, I've read that in Iraq and Afghanistan it proved rather "fragile". I'm assuming that it was simply not designed for the exceptionally hot, high and dusty conditions found in those theatres. Very few weapons-systems have ever been made to work fully in such extreme environments and many have to be radically adapted to function at all.

I though that especially the, British Rolls Royce powered ones were working very well...

 

But yes,  hot and high and dusty is never going for performance!

Poland is lucky in that aspect though ;)

 

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On 27/04/2022 at 07:24, GiampieroSilvestri said:

The AH-64 Apache Longbow has a top speed of 265 kmh,a climb rate of 7,5 m/s,a range of 407 kilometres and a maximum weight of 10423 kg whereas the Kamov Ka-52 has a top speed of 310 kmh,a climb rate of 13,2 m/s,a range of 1200 kilometres and a maximum weight of 11900 kg.The Mil-28 has a top speed of 324 kmh,a climb rate of 13,6 m/s,a range of 1105 kilometres and the maximum weight is 11700 kg.Even the smaller Agusta Mangusta has a top speed of 275 kmh and the climb rate is of 10,2 m/s and the range is of 800 kilometres.The Eurocopter Tiger can reach a maximum speed of 290 kmh,has a better climb rate of 10,7 m/s and the range is 1000 kilometres.The Kamov and the Mil are heavier armed and the armour can resist up to 20 millimetres,the AH-64 Apache Longbow up to 12,7 millimetres.That they will never buy anything else but american built aircraft is well known but technically there are other Helicopters that are more capable.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

  • Kamov or Mil? no chance. It’s Russian, they are going to be off the purchase list for a long while because of sanctions and it’s never a good idea to buy aircraft from your most likely adversary as things like spares would be the first thing to be withdrawn when diplomatic relations go south.
  • Tiger, so it’s faster and can climb quicker? Not a great selling point for nipping round Polish forests at 0 feet. Australia spent the $ and found it wasn’t much of a tiger at all. They can’t get rid of them quick enough for an Apache.
  • Mangusta, doubtful. It’s low production rate and been ignored by other nations quite often.

The performance specifications are one thing but not particularly indicative as to what’s important:

  • reliability
  • spares back up
  • costs per hour to run
  • weapon fit out
  • upgradeability
  • shared training networks
  • shared support networks
  • Battlefield networking and integration. And this is probably the most important part at the moment. 
     

the other airframes abilities to fly slightly faster and further are great, but not likely to be a massive consideration.

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That Nato members (apart France) and the other American allies will mostly consider the US offering is logical but as I said technically and from what they can do there are better and more capable machines,not only Helicopters but also aircraft,tanks,ships,etc.from other countries than the US which was the point of my answer.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

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As far as attack helicopters, the list of available options would seem to be rather limited. Other than Apache, Tiger, Mangusta (and the Turkish T-129 variant), and AH-1Z Viper I'm not sure what else is available if you discount Russian and Chinese machines.

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I would have said Cobra all the way, but having recently changed jobs from Textron to Boeing I'm now an Apache fan boy for purely commercial reasons 😂

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The Apache is a proven weapon system, it is available in quantity, and as there a number of European operators the spares and additional ordinance is not going to be an issue.

 

The Cobra has a smaller availability. The Italians may produce some of the basic avionics and engine components, common with the AB212, but the Apache would be more of a deterrent to any aggressor

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On 5/2/2022 at 8:05 AM, GiampieroSilvestri said:

That Nato members (apart France) and the other American allies will mostly consider the US offering is logical but as I said technically and from what they can do there are better and more capable machines,not only Helicopters but also aircraft,tanks,ships,etc.from other countries than the US which was the point of my answer.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

You do realize that simply quoting manufacturer's performance numbers doesn't really even come close to the full story about how "capable" an aircraft is?     How critical is max speed for a typical mission profile these helos will fly?  Any idea?  How well are the Russian helos networked (which in today's world is absolutely critical)? Do they have the ability to sync information from and control UAV's?    How well do the sensors perform, especially in night/adverse weather?   Again, do you have even a clue or do you just believe that the only way to determine which aircraft is "better and more capable" are top speed, range and rate of climb?   

 

Even just looking at your cherished performance numbers - Are those figures you quoted in an operational configuration or "clean"?   How much fuel did they have onboard?    The Tiger has better performance numbers so therefore it must be "better" than the -64?   LOL, you may want to have a quick chat with the Aussies.   They apparently came to a different conclusion than you did.   

 

I'm afraid all you have done so far is demonstrate your unfamiliarity with the subject.

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On 5/4/2022 at 9:02 PM, wellsprop said:

I presume it could be built by Leonardo in Poland.

I presume you are are right....

But I fear it comes too late...

Although looking interesting and probably cost efficient

Poland will want something at best today...

But I Italy has Mangustas to spare now, things could look differently of course!

Apaches for whatever reason do not appear on the second hand marker. Most are remanufactured to D and later E models.

Either Boeing is clever here, or many parts are simply that worn out that any further use is only theoretical!

 

See e.g the British ones... not even 20 years old but fully rebuilt. ( not much left of the originals by the way!)

 

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I think that the americans do not allow countries that bought the AH-64 to sell it to other countries.Venezuela for example ordered the AMX in Brazil but they were not sold because it was forbidden by the US gouvernement with the explanation that the aircraft includes US technologies that should not fall into "enemy" hands.For the same reason the F-14 Tomcat were demolished so that Iran cannot buy complete aircraft or spare parts to keep their F-14 Tomcat flying with the result that IRIAF Tomcat are still flying today and they will still for a long time with Russian electronic.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

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17 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

I think that the americans do not allow countries that bought the AH-64 to sell it to other countries.

It requires State Department approval.

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5 hours ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

I think that the americans do not allow countries that bought the AH-64 to sell it to other countries.

Yes, true.

But that does not prevent F-16s being sold on for example.

Chile, Jordan  Pakistan, Romania, Portugal, Thailand, Indonesia, TopAces,  for sure I forgot someone, all operate used F-16s from other countries.

 

Apart from that, if you qualify for new Apaches, you surely do so for used ones....

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44 minutes ago, Slater said:

Countries on the "disapproved" list would be Iran, Syria, North Korea, Russia, etc.

or the above mentioned Venezuela.... depending on hardware, Argentine also scores high... might have to do something with the Brits....

 

and sometimes it is only about protecting ones Business interests... see the failed attempt of Israel to sell its old, but heavily upgraded F-16s to Croatia 2 years ago... against Lockheed Marting trying to sell its own :D

 

Rafale won in the end by the way. it seems...

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