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Short Sunderland Mk.III - Waist Guns?


Dunny

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Hi All,

 

I'm just commencing a Special Hobby Mk.III, and am a little bemused whether the waist guns were present on this mark? I cannot find any photos or schematics which definitively state yes or no, but a quick look at Wikipedia suggests that the Mk.I's Vickers 'K' guns were deleted in favour of more capable 0.50" weapons. Can anybody provide any further evidence of this? I'd like to model the hatches open but would like the correct guns to be present and correct! Thanks in advance for any help,

 

Cheers,

 

Roger

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dunny said:

I'm just commencing a Special Hobby Mk.III, and am a little bemused whether the waist guns were present on this mark? I cannot find any photos or schematics which definitively state yes or no, but a quick look at Wikipedia suggests that the Mk.I's Vickers 'K' guns were deleted in favour of more capable 0.50" weapons. Can anybody provide any further evidence of this? I'd like to model the hatches open but would like the correct guns to be present and correct!

Hi Roger,

 

Just to Clarify, when you mean waste guns, you are referring to the Beam Gun Hatches

as in these?

Sunderland%20MR5%20Build%203f.jpg

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

 

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As far as I am aware the waist and fixed forward firing machine guns were an innovation from 10 squadron RAAF, which had more freedom to experiment than other Sunderland squadrons.  The changes were than adopted by other squadrons.

 

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/SearchScreens/BasicSearch.aspx

10 squadron history as the search string, Series A9186 Control Symbols 25 and 26 are available online, click on the title to have the option of downloading the PDF, or use the digitised item option to view a page at a time.  Extracts from the files,

 

DD852 03/08/43 Attacked by 7 Ju88s for about one hour, Nose gunner AG 410210 F/Sgt H Allan Bird killed, on the first patrol of a Sqn Sunderland with four fixed forward firing Browning 0.303 inch machine guns.

 

January 1944, DD865 trial modification of two 0.5 inch waist guns.  Also all aircraft getting twin gun front turret.  February 1944 DD865, JM684, JM721 have 0.5" waist guns.

 

ML839 Mk.3 becoming a mark V

Taken on RAF Charge 29/10/43, allocated to 10 Sqn 08/12/43, coded RB-A, for conversion to mark V (R-1830 Twin Wasp replacing Pegasus XVIII engines) but not officially on strength, mentioned on 02/03/44 with work underway when a delegation of Ministry of Aircraft Production, Coastal Command, Short Brothers and Pratt & Whitney representatives visit the squadron to discuss the project. 16/03/43 Four engines and one propeller installed.  The propellers are from Albemarles with 9 inches clipped off the blades and are fully feathering.  Conversion now has priority over operational commitments.  5552 Fitter 2E Sgt G F Beattie is in charge of the installation.
04/05/44 First test flight of mark V, pilot Group Captain J Alexander OBE RAAF (Commanding Officer RAF Mount Batten) (The official mark V prototype ML765 was taken on charge by the RAF 31/03/44, counted as a mark III, though it has been reported it flew as a mark V in March.)
01/07/44 Loaned to 10 Sqn for for local and training flights.
12/09/44 First operational sortie, captained by F/Lt S T Chilcott
12/10/44 Sank at moorings during gale.

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1 hour ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

As far as I am aware the waist and fixed forward firing machine guns were an innovation from 10 squadron RAAF, which had more freedom to experiment than other Sunderland squadrons.  The changes were than adopted by other squadrons.

The introduction of the US P&W R1830 engine was also an Aussie

idea (10 Squadron also from memory).

The Advent of the forward firing bow guns, FN5B twin gun bow turret, Beam Guns, R1830 engines

was (to my knowledge) not as much an adoption by other Squadrons, but more an Air

Ministry change in thinking leading to adoption into the Sunderland Production

processes, ending with the Sunderland Mk IIIa (still with Mk XVIII Pegasus engines),

and finally the Mk V with the P&W R 1830 Engines.

 

The standard Sunderland Mk III early and mid production still had the upper Turret, so really no need for

the beam guns and with an upper turret in place. you couldn't fit the .5 cal positions anyway.

Further Air Ministry changes saw the deletion of the Upper turret leaving later production aircraft with

a "Hump" - The reason for the deletion was the falling off of Luftwaffe activity in the likes of the Bay of Biscay

 The Mk V after the deletion of the Upper turret had the Beam guns fitted (sort of a circle of life type thing except

more bang for your buck with the .5 Cal guns :smartass:)

A Sunderland Pilot (270/490 Squadrons) I knew, flew a Mk III sans upper Turret in West Africa, but told me the

MK III's with the forward bow guns and FN5B twin gun turret only flew from bases in Britain

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

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In Flt Lt Leslie Baveystock’s ‘Wavetops at my Wingtips’ he describes that whilst with 201 in early 44 the Sunderland IIIs they had were fitted with twin Browning front turrets, two Brownings each side of the nose, a 0.5 mounted below the front gunners legs pointing forward (although this proved difficult to operate) plus two Vickers (K’s?) in the galley and fired from the ‘galley hatches’. The mid upper and tail turrets also fitted as standard.

 

Earlier in the book he mentions that whilst with 201 they developed a three gunned front turret as U-Boat crews had soon realised they only had one poxy .303 in the front when attacking. The Thimblethorpe Quickfit Turret was devised by Flt Lt Thimblethorpe who was a gunner on his crew and quite senior and previously a designer in civvy street; he even raised a Patent for it but the Squadron CO wanted it to be a recognised as a team effort, even though he had done all the work. The turret fit proved successful in squadron trials and a number were fitted with it. At the time, August 43, the patrols being undertaken also required the removal of the mid upper and reduction of depth charges from eight to six to reduce weight and increase.

 

The book is an excellent read especially as Baveystock was also crew on Les Manser’s Avro Manchester on the mission for which Manser won the VC posthumously having given his crew time to bail out.

 

Mike

 

 

Edited by mick b
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10RAAF had a good deal more flexibility than other squadrons because their aircraft were owned by the RAAF (i.e. Australia) rather than the Brits. Australia had purchased a squadron of Sunderlands pre-war for AS patrolling in our waters. 10RAAF was in the UK to pick them up when war broke out, and was offered to the UK to assist there, on condition that the Brits would replace combat losses without charge as and when they occurred. Thus 10RAAF didn't need to go through the palaver that other squadrons did to make modifications to their aircraft and, being half way around the world from head office, had a lot more room to move. 461RAAF, being an Article XV squadron, used RAF aircraft and so had to cope with the Air Ministry's labyrinthine bureaucracy. 

 

Somewhere in my records I have a copy of 10RAAF's engineering drawings for the R-1830 conversion, which I got many years ago from the Australian War Memorial archives with a view to converting an Airfix kit. The 1:1 scale conversion was based on adapting Catalina engine mounts. The drawings are in a very safe place - so safe that even I can't find them ...

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Hi

    The talk of 10 Sqn RAAF sunderlands reminded me somewhere i have an original ww2 photo of the unofficial Sqn crest/ insignia used on sunderlands 

  I must try to find it again sometime 

     cheers

         Jerry 

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5 hours ago, Admiral Puff said:

10RAAF had a good deal more flexibility than other squadrons because their aircraft were owned by the RAAF

 

I think because 10 Squadron had such Latitude, and developed these "Changes" to their Sunderland's,

which were then taken on board by the Air Ministry (AM), RAF/Commonwealth Aircrews in the Battle

of the Atlantic had a better fighting chance against U Boats.

5/6 (depending on single or twin FN turret) Browning's even though .303 calibre was a lot of fire power

causing the U Boat crews a lot of grief especially when they began fighting it out on the surface.

 

Since the OP mentioned the Special Hobby (SH) Mk III - some comments

 

What a lot of modellers are not aware of also is that during Sunderland production

RAF Sunderland's particularly in the Mk III had some interior changes brought about

by the AM.

One was the changing of the way of how the Bomb Room Doors came down when

commencing a Depth Charge run

 

Sunderland I/II and early production Mk III had a Flange System (semi enclosed frame)

for the door edges roll/slide down (see Arrow A in below IWM Photo)

Flare%20chutes%20and%20camera%20installa

 

This is the Change from Flange to Magnetic System with rubber Bungy (later Production Mk III

and Mk V)

Bomb%20Room%20Door%20Magnetic%20Mechanis

 

Arrow B were the Cameras to record the Depth Charging (later moved solely to stern)

Arrow C Note there is no Mess Table (SH would have you install) - The mess table along

with table in the Bomb Room were by Special Order from Shorts Only*

(I have the Sunderland Mk I & III Manuals with appropriate Drawings/Diagrams with these changes

and mention of the "Special Orders from Shorts")

 

Arrow D note the Ladder length this goes from the top of the Upper deck floor to the Mezzanine floor

(rear ward room roof) 

The Mk V had the ladder attached to the Port side .5 Gun position, so was shorter (yes I have

climbed that many a time) - Note where the access  ladder sits in the above IWM photo, in a Mk V,

is a Framework Support for the .5 Calibre position.

 

NZ4115%20Rear%20Deck%20and%20gun%20stati

 

I do have a photo of the Access ladder (somewhere), but for the time being you can see (extreme Left Hand side)

the shorter ladder attached to Port side Gunners platform in this RNZAF Museum Photo

(not to mention a superb shot of the Beam Gun position in use :D)

LbG5525-62_1.t5ed9b317.m600.x2UgzneuK.jp

(RNZAF Official - Air Force Museum of New Zealand - Used with Permissions)

 

Note there are more Changes that I could mention, but if you want I can answer

 

Regards

 

Alan

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17 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

Note there are more Changes that I could mention, but if you want I can answer

 

That's awesome detail information Alan - thanks so much for sharing!

 

Cheers,

 

Roger

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