BF 109 B1 Instrument panel colour?

[SeaVenom]

Building AMG's Me109 B1 and even though I've pretty much finished the cockpit off I'm still not sure what colour the instrument panel should be.  I'm fairly sure it should be grey but a light, medium or darker grey (1937/38)?

 

 

 

[Hook]

I think the panel itself was RLM66.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[dogsbody]

41 minutes ago, Hook said:

I think the panel itself was RLM66.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

 

I don't Think so. The order ( L.Dv.521 ) was issued in November 1941, stipulated that all cockpit areas or crew areas that were visible through a glazed covering were to be painted Black-Grey 66. Instrumemt panels were to be painted Grey 41.

 

 

 

Chris

[Britman]

Surely the B1 was too early for any orders of November 1941?

 

Keith

[Seawinder]

In any case, RLM 41 and 66 look to be very similar. My question would be, how far back in time were IP's to be painted dark gray?

[SeaVenom]

On 4/22/2022 at 4:04 PM, Britman said:

Surely the B1 was too early for any orders of November 1941?

 

Keith

 

 

Yes the plane's I'm doing are from 1937/38.

[Britman]

As one would have thought.

 

Keith

[Shorty84]

On 4/20/2022 at 6:11 PM, SeaVenom said:

Building AMG's Me109 B1 and even though I've pretty much finished the cockpit off I'm still not sure what colour the instrument panel should be.  I'm fairly sure it should be grey but a light, medium or darker grey (1937/38)?

 

On 4/22/2022 at 6:21 PM, Seawinder said:

In any case, RLM 41 and 66 look to be very similar. My question would be, how far back in time were IP's to be painted dark gray?

I've just checked my copy of Merrick's/Kiroff's 'Luftwaffe camouflage and markings 1933 - 1945' and it seems that painting instrument panels RLM66 dates back to roughly 1937. This is what I found:

The painting schedule for the He 51C/D of 1936/37 contains no overall cockpit painting instructions, just for specific components, but the colours were not yet defined by RLM codes (IP to be painted Avionorm Decklack Nr.702/3850 grau-matt).

While there is no mention of the Bf 109, the painting schedule for the Do 17E of 1937 clearly specifies to paint the instrument panel in RLM66 (...single coat lacquer in tone 66...).

 

There is no mention of IPs painted in RLM41 in the book but judging from the supplied colour cards, RLM41 and 66 are so close that for modelling purposes they are indistinguishable (RLM41 is only slightly lighter in tone).

 

Hope this helps!

 

Cheers

Markus

[Vonbraun]

Here is a  page from  Merrick and Hitchcock's The Official Guide to Painting German Aircraft...

 

 

41 is much lighter than 66 according to this source.   Although it was published over 40 years ago it is still an excellent source for color information.  But perhaps newer information  contradicts?

[Troy Smith]

On 20/04/2022 at 17:11, SeaVenom said:

Building AMG's Me109 B1 and even though I've pretty much finished the cockpit off I'm still not sure what colour the instrument panel should be.  I'm fairly sure it should be grey but a light, medium or darker grey (1937/38)?

 

 

 

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/walkaround/b6-15/Bf109B13.jpg

 

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/walkaround/b6-15/Bf109B14.jpg

 

this is maybe the most useful, as it shows the panel to be a darker tone than the side wall, suggesting to me 02 side with a 66 instrument panel.

 

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/walkaround/b6-15/Bf109B16.jpg

 

these are of Bf 109B-1 "6-15", Flown by Uffz. Otto Polenz, this early "Berta" was forced down behind Nationalist lines on 4 December 1937 along the Aragon front at Corta Azaila-Escatron.  We are fortunate that the aircraft was extensively photographed during the subsequent evaluation by French and Russian technical teams; this is the most thorough coverage of a Jumo-powered 109 of which I'm aware.  These photos were taken during the Russian evaluation of the aircraft

from

 

full set is here,  

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/walkaround/b6-15/6-15.htm

 

I'll @SafetyDad @FalkeEins @G.R.Morrison  who maybe able to add more.

 

HTH

 

 

 

[Hook]

14 hours ago, Shorty84 said:

it seems that painting instrument panels RLM66 dates back to roughly 1937.

That is what my references state as well. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[SafetyDad]

8 hours ago, Hook said:

That is what my references state as well. 

 

 

 

And mine. 

I would go with 66 for your panel - it seems we are without a definitive reference for the Bf 109B, therefore we are left with the most likely option. Troy's link to the 109B walkaround certainly shows a darker panel than the rest of the cockpit interior, so 66 is the most likely choice to my mind.

 

SD

[Shorty84]

20 hours ago, Vonbraun said:

41 is much lighter than 66 according to this source.   Although it was published over 40 years ago it is still an excellent source for color information.  But perhaps newer information  contradicts?

I'm sure it is still a useful reference but considering there are some decades between both works (Merrick being author of both), this latest book for sure represents an update of his previous work and incorporates all new information which came to light since then.

Merrick teamed up with Mr. Kiroff who has some background in this field as he has his own Paint company. They recreated all paints based on their original formula and supplied the result as colour cards in the books, so I guess they are as authentic as it is humanely possible at the moment.

As far as I understand, as a result of this cooperation, Kiroff now supplies authentic RLM colours for restoration jobs: https://www.rlm-farben.de/

 

This is what RLM41 looks like acc. to Merrick/Kiroff. As you can see, it is very close to RLM66, just a bit lighter. For modelling purposes, I guess you would be hard-pressed to see the difference at all.

 

Cheers

Markus

[SeaVenom]

Thanks all.   Great info.

[dov]

Oh,Oh

@Sea Venom, please read it, mybe too late....

 

 

 

I assume you are mislead.

Early Messerschmitts and aircraft in the years of 1935 to 1940 are not in accordance with the later RLM certification rules.

Some color you refer did not even exist.

 

So please read my posts.

 

Happy modelling

[SeaVenom]

On 5/15/2022 at 10:28 AM, dov said:

Oh,Oh

@Sea Venom, please read it, mybe too late....

 

 

 

I assume you are mislead.

Early Messerschmitts and aircraft in the years of 1935 to 1940 are not in accordance with the later RLM certification rules.

Some color you refer did not even exist.

 

So please read my posts.

 

Happy modelling

 

 

Ok I've read your posts Dov but I'm afraid I'm still in the dark.  Do you think the instrument panel should be RLM63?

[dov]

Oh, @Sea Venom, yes I guess strong it should be RLM 63, or any kind of light grey used at this time in Germany for civil aviation   as the book from Ulmann says.

From my WIP, from early Messerschmitt 109 you can see my aproach!

Happy modelling 

[SeaVenom]

On 5/27/2022 at 11:43 AM, dov said:

Oh, @Sea Venom, yes I guess strong it should be RLM 63, or any kind of light grey used at this time in Germany for civil aviation   as the book from Ulmann says.

From my WIP, from early Messerschmitt 109 you can see my aproach!

Happy modelling 

 

Thanks dov and that's the colour (light grey) that I painted it.   

[Quailane]

I know this is really late and no longer useful to the original project. However, it could be important to anyone else looking this up in the future. My main area of interest is German aircraft used during the Spanish Civil War. This includes Bf-109 models from the first production units (and a prototype or two) through to the E-1 and E-3. The instrument panels from the prototypes through the D series were always painted RLM 02 from the factory, the same standard color as the rest of the cockpit. Early production E-3 and E-1 aircraft, including all that were sent to Spain with the Condor Legion, also had RLM 02 instrument panels. Production soon afterwards switched to darker instrument panels combined with the RLM 02 cockpit color. All E-4 and later aircraft only came with darker instrument panels. Aircraft in service could have had their instrument panels painted a darker color during their service life. I don’t think any Bf-109B in German service ever would have had an instrument panel that wasn’t RLM 02. Some stayed serviceable in Spain in the 50’s, but I’m unclear of what the color of the instrument panel would have been at that time.

[dov]

Refering to: https://www.scalemates.com/books/messerschmitt-bf-109-harald-helmut-vogt--105906

this book as a good source: It is correct, from E-4 onward the dashbord was RLM 66.

Repainting a dashbord? Our mechanics in the forum may tell you how much work it is!

Happy modelling

[Quailane]

17 hours ago, dov said:

Refering to: https://www.scalemates.com/books/messerschmitt-bf-109-harald-helmut-vogt--105906

this book as a good source: It is correct, from E-4 onward the dashbord was RLM 66.

Repainting a dashbord? Our mechanics in the forum may tell you how much work it is!

Happy modelling

 

I agree that this is safe to assume. Unfortunately at this point the interior colors are no longer so simple. With multiple manufacturers, upgrading, and re-manufacture of aircraft, things aren't straight-forward. An E-3 could have been upgraded to E-4 and subsequently E-7, already after 109F models had entered combat. I haven't yet seen a photograph that clearly suggests to show an angular late-style canopy, an RLM02 interior, and an instrument panel probably the same color as the rest of the interior.

 

This is from a 109E-3 that served with the Germans in Spain, and subsequently served with the Spanish Air Force until 1959. I don't think this instrument panel is original to the airframe, and the interior colors are definitely not original, but it shows, at least to my eyes, what appears to have been an RLM 66 instrument panel that was later painted RLM 02, and then later painted true black.

 

https://www.youtube.com/embed/HJHLn4RyBd0?start=794

 

[Vesa Jussila]

I must agree above comment that many Bf-109 E's were upgraded. Hannu Valtonen from Finnish Air Force Museum have found wreck where is three id-plates. If I remember correctly last was E-7. I still assume that that cockpit colour would be quite standard in E's. German industry was not so stretched in this point of war.    

 

Edit:

I found one good example.  Bf-109E WNr.3285 started life as E-1 was lost 19.2.1942 and at that point was E-7. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Vesa Jussila