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KT's Lightning learning


KingTiger435

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I was looking at reference images for lightnings and I saw some lightnings with a boom and then the same one without a boom, were refuelling booms permanent once added or were they merely an accessory?

This is the same aircraft F.2A (XN781)

With

fe4728484180926307fc029c51e415d7.jpg

Without

be4a17af1120bdd6fdeb0a99b814a172.jpg

(Photos not mine, I can't find the source so I unfortunately can't give credit)

So, was the boom an accessory that could be added and removed or is it a permanent attachment and the photo without is merely older?

Edited by KingTiger435
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They were removable.

 

Also AAR was not an integral part of day-to-day operations in RAFG as it was for UK based squadrons (eg many photos around of German based Buccaneers without AAR probes) although I imagine that crews would have to maintain currency as well as for transits to APC in Cyprus or exercises elsewhere.

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1 minute ago, Des said:

They were removable.

 

Also AAR was not an integral part of day-to-day operations in RAFG as it was for UK based squadrons (eg many photos around of German based Buccaneers without AAR probes) although I imagine that crews would have to maintain currency as well as for transits to APC in Cyprus or exercises elsewhere.

Thanks for the quick and helpful response:thanks:

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2 hours ago, Des said:

They were removable.

 

Also AAR was not an integral part of day-to-day operations in RAFG as it was for UK based squadrons (eg many photos around of German based Buccaneers without AAR probes) although I imagine that crews would have to maintain currency as well as for transits to APC in Cyprus or exercises elsewhere.

Tornado crews in RAFG had to relearn how to AAR before they went to the Gulf in 1990.

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  • KingTiger435 changed the title to KT's Lightning learning

I have yet another question, this time about the F.6.

The Ventral tank guns, what's the deal with them?

My reference aircraft for this question is F.6 XS921. Here we can see her with what appears to be 74 Sqn. (source and date unfortunately unknown to me)

b79f064b6831d5b5c89180062c8bf800.jpg

Note the absence of ventral gun tank.

Here's another photo: apparently taken in 1970 (source unknown)

XS921.jpg

 

 

 

 

However, in some other photographs, XS921 is shown with the gun tank (1983, photograph by Vickersfour)

461339.jpg

 

Here's another, 1973 by John Visanch

0375829.jpg

 

So, what's the deal with F.6s and their guns? How come sometimes some F.6s had no guns even though they were revered for reintroducing guns to the Lightning?

Looking at references has left me a bit confused as to the situation, were the gun tanks replaceable or once added permanent?

 

Thanks in advance.

Levi

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KT,

 

The F Mk 1A and  F Mk 2 did have two 30 mm cannon, mounted in front of the cockpit, above the intake either side of the upper nose. The F Mk 3 did not have any cannon armament and that was felt to be a mistake.

The early FMk 6s did not have 30mm cannon. This was missed, so a later modification produced the oddity of two cannon mounted in the front part of the ventral fuel tank - and unusual  location to choose ! 

 

I think that the F Mk2s converted as F Mk 2As ( Mk 6 equivalents)  did not at first have the belly cannon but were later retrofitted. It may have been these, used mostly in RAF Germany that pressed for the restoration of cannon, which made sense for the more direct QRA challenge & interception of doubtful aircraft as likely to be needed in West Germany.

 

The early Lightning weapons options included a rocket pack in place of the missile fit and I seem to recall there being a lower twin 30mm cannon pack option, which could produce a 4 cannon Lightning.  Whether that was ever used in service operation or was simply a  manufacturer's option, I don't know/can't remember.No doubt someone on here will know! 

 

It was suggested, probably in a 'What-If', that all this implied  that theoretically a six cannon Lightning could have been produced - two in upper nose, two in place of the missile pack, two in the belly tank.  Now that would have been some firepower !   (Given the way the simultaneous firing of all 4 x 30mm Adens rattled the Hunter, I imagine the engineers & maintainers would not have liked that idea!)

 

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The gun fit for the F.6 was not originally on the type, regardless if they were F.6 proper or F.3 converted on the production line. 74 Sqn. was the first unit to operate the F.6 and all images of these aircraft in the Far East will show no guns as these were not in service yet by then. All aircraft were later converted to accept the gun pack. Pack that as others have said was removable, so it is possible to see pictures of aircraft without guns even later in the F-6 service (and there are even of aircraft with the belly in one colour and the pack in a different one)

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Thank you for the responses everyone, helped clear things up for me. I imagine I will have more questions eventually so I'll keep this topic open. The lightning is such an interesting and diverse aircraft.

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2 hours ago, John B (Sc) said:

I think that the F Mk2s converted as F Mk 2As ( Mk 6 equivalents)  did not at first have the belly cannon but were later retrofitted. It may have been these, used mostly in RAF Germany that pressed for the restoration of cannon, which made sense for the more direct QRA challenge & interception of doubtful aircraft as likely to be needed in West Germany.

 

The F.2 was built with the ability to carry 4 guns, two in the upper nose and two in the lower nose but if the latter were carried, I'm sure that the Firestreaks could not be carried (so you either had 4x guns or 2x guns plus 2x Firestreak).  This capability was carried over to the F.2A so there was no need for the guns in the ventral tank which was just as well given the Lightning's paltry fuel load anyway.  I've never seen an F.2A with guns in the ventral tank.

 

According to my old Warrant Officer who'd been a Lightning man in the UK then at Gutersloh, the F.2A's were reckoned to be more slippery than the F.6's which coupled with the better harmonisation of airframe and engines achieved with the 200 series Avon's in the F.2A's meant better fuel consumption and they could achieve slightly longer sortie times (a gnat's crotchet and a half as opposed to just the gnat's crotchet).

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10 hours ago, KingTiger435 said:

I have yet another question, this time about the F.6.

The Ventral tank guns, what's the deal with them?

My reference aircraft for this question is F.6 XS921. Here we can see her with what appears to be 74 Sqn. (source and date unfortunately unknown to me)

b79f064b6831d5b5c89180062c8bf800.jpg

Note the absence of ventral gun tank.

Here's another photo: apparently taken in 1970 (source unknown)

XS921.jpg

 

 

 

 

However, in some other photographs, XS921 is shown with the gun tank (1983, photograph by Vickersfour)

461339.jpg

 

Here's another, 1973 by John Visanch

0375829.jpg

 

So, what's the deal with F.6s and their guns? How come sometimes some F.6s had no guns even though they were revered for reintroducing guns to the Lightning?

Looking at references has left me a bit confused as to the situation, were the gun tanks replaceable or once added permanent?

 

Thanks in advance.

Levi

Check out this thread for lightning armament https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235108860-bac-lightnings-missile-pylons/

 

Selwyn

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Thanks for that, wez. I was aware that the lower cannon fit was instead of the missile pack, yes. So no missiles in the four cannon version.  If that potential four cannon fit remined an option throughout, then there would certainly be no need for the belly tank gun fit!  (I thought the F2A lost the upper cannon, just as the F6 had, must chgeck my old sources! )

 

I was also told the F2As were overall rather better than the F6s.  Must have been quite a beast.

 

John B

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13 hours ago, John B (Sc) said:

I was also told the F2As were overall rather better than the F6s.  Must have been quite a beast.

In fuel range the F2a was better than the F6 but all the Lightning at Binbrook had IFR probes so they could catch a tanker if there was one out there.

 The F2a's armament was limited to the cannon and  Firestreak missile only, where as the F6 had the Aden cannon, the Firestreak as well as the  "all aspect (well for its time)" Redtop missile and the better radar married to the that missile. But there again the expected mission profile was different between the two version F2a was low level interception, the F6's was uk air defence  

 

Later in the F6's service life there was a mod that gave the Lightning a slight lookdown capability.   

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  • 1 month later...

I have yet another new question:

A mystery vent/exhaust/intake

On the airfix 1:72 kit, there is a small bit sticking out that appears to be some sort of small intake or vent/exhaust. I'm not sure what it is.

What is even more confusing is that on some aircraft it seems to exist, while on others it seems to be missing.

6bb5f762731268699af2a37cdf1d7bb0.jpg

c6fb9490d881093455a2d19cfe36a711.jpg

7123df3ec96713694023e8c27991ef79.jpg

f78eed10cffdc6a8f4f0c2d0ad84fd90.jpg

2229798afbb1227f510e0c75bd9882a2.jpg

 

 

 

Therefore, I must ask, what was this? What aircraft was it on?

Thanks in advance everyone.

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