Canberra B(I)12 SAAF recce pack

[ReccePhreak]

I tried searching the forums, to see if my questions were previously answered, but no joy.

I want to convert my Airfix 1/48 Canberra B(I)8 into a SAAF B(I)12 with a recce pack installed. I found the following description online, but need more info:

 

"The SAAF received the first B(I) Mk 12 aircraft in 1963. Six B(I) Mk 12 bombers (451 to 456) and the T Mk 4 trainers (457 to 459) were operated by 12 Squadron.

A second-hand B Mk2 nose was acquired from Rhodesia and T Mk 4 trainer 457 was converted to a bomber.

The bomber version had a glass nose to enable the navigator/bomb-aimer to aim the bombs through a gyroscopically stabilised gunsight, while the pilot say under an off-set tear-drop canopy.

The reconnaissance fit on the B(I)12s of 12 Squadron was contained in the conformal gun pack 'canoe' which came with the airframes from the UK. The cameras included the Zeiss F-96, using 9" x 9" film stock (B/W and IRFC ) and typically 6", 12", 24", 36" and 48" FL lenses and, from time to time, the Omera 6".
Up to 5 - usually 3 - Zeiss cameras would be arranged in a fan, with the 6" Omera giving a wider field for PI orientation. There would be a 36" Zeiss F-96 arranged as a vertical 'pinpoint' camera, but the 48" lens was used rarely, as it proved too difficult to keep 'points of interest' within the 'banana slide' aiming device used to manage good tracking.
There was a circular rear camera hatch/bay in which the prime vertical F-96 camera was typically mounted. This was utilised, after quite a while, during low-level strike missions for BDA photography by mounting an optical mirror looking at ~45 degrees aft/down. This recorded sequentially where the Alpha weapons were about to/had just struck. That simple idea saved a lot of time, and saved sending another aircraft back later."

 

Does anybody have more detailed info (Photos or drawings would be fantastic!) on the camera fit that would help me on the conversion? 

Also, I have read that the kit's seats (Including the seats on the Airfix PR.9) are not that good and need replacing. Any suggestions on which aftermarket seats to get?

My final question was on the markings & paint scheme. I read that the B(I)12 was painted overall PRU Blue, was that correct? What markings would they have had? I doubt there is an aftermarket squadron marking available for the fin?

 

TIA for any & all help.

Larry

[stevehnz]

27 minutes ago, ReccePhreak said:

Also, I have read that the kit's seats (Including the seats on the Airfix PR.9) are not that good and need replacing. Any suggestions on which aftermarket seats to get?

Hi Larry, no help with the recon pack sorry, but Pavla do a cockpit detail set for the Airfix PR.9 which may be useful.

Steve.

[ReccePhreak]

4 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

Hi Larry, no help with the recon pack sorry, but Pavla do a cockpit detail set for the Airfix PR.9 which may be useful.

Steve.P

Thanks for the reply, but I doubt that 1/72 set would fit into my 1/48 kit very well. 

I have seen the 1/48 sets with either just the Pilot's cockpit, or both the Pilot & Navigator cockpits. They're both a bit pricey, and I think I can get away with just the seats, but there is conflicting info on exactly which MB seat was used for the Pilot (and/or the Nav). Also, are the Pilot's seats the same on the B(I)8 and the PR.9?

Larry

[stevehnz]

3 minutes ago, ReccePhreak said:

Thanks for the reply, but I doubt that 1/72 set would fit into my 1/48 kit very well. 

Might need some packing out at the side.   Sorry about that.

4 minutes ago, ReccePhreak said:

Also, are the Pilot's seats the same on the B(I)8 and the PR.9?

Maybe one for @canberra kid

Steve.

[canberra kid]

HI @ReccePhreak and @stevehnz

 

Larry I'll sort some things out for you as soon as I can, I'm a bit bogged down at the moment working of Vol.2 of the new Canberra book. You have a choice of 3 colour schemes HSS, PRU Blue top, HSS lower 50/50 split, over all PRU blue all with full SAAF castel markings. Later all over PRU blue with no markings except a 3 digit number on the fuselage. 

The seat was an MB Mk.3cs As far as I know there isn't one in the aftermarket world, but I could be wrong? Have a look on my site for what the seat looks like. The Nav's sliding seat was very diferant to the one the B.(I)8 had. The cockpit was fairly standard early on, the only thing if note was the Colin's Mk.10 Autopilot on the rear of the left side console. I'll check on the camera controls. As I said I'll get back to you as soon as I can with the camera fit. 

Have considered building one of the two Rhodesian AF B.()PR)2' Larry?

 

John

[canberra kid]

@ReccePhreak Hi Larry,

 

On the subject of PR. Canberra's were you aware the VICON developed a dedicated Canberra Rccon pod for the export Canberra Market. As yet I've seen no evidence of the pod being used, but I know for sure the FAV Canberra's were cleared to carry them. The pod was VICON 18 series 2. It was designed to be mounted on one of the under wing pylons. 

 

John  

[David Womby]

The reference to the 'Alpha weapon' surprised me.  That was a Rhodesian Air Force invention used by their Canberras.  I hadn't known the SAAF used it too.  So thanks for that info..

 

As John said, the SAAF B(I)12s were delivered in silver and ended up in PRU Blue.   There was at least one that spent time in the silver upper/PRU Blue lower scheme.  Over time they lost the 12 squadron shield from the fin and the SAAF 'castles'.

 

The book "Canberra in Southern African Service" has a pic of the cameras carried by an SAAF B(I)12 on photo-reconnaissance duties but they are on display outside the aircraft.  They are listed as RMK, RC-8 and F96.  I can't find any pics in there of the pod where they were fitted. 

 

There is this one pic of 451 (bottom pic below) in the silver/PRU Blue scheme that intrigues me.  It looks like she has been fitted with a full-length bulged bomb bay.   Is that a recon fit? Does anybody know?

 

David

[David Womby]

7 hours ago, ReccePhreak said:

I doubt there is an aftermarket squadron marking available for the fin?

 

TIA for any & all help.

Larry

There is:   https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/ML48144?result-token=nvMZm

 

David

[ReccePhreak]

Thanks @stevehnz, @canberra kid, & @David Womby  for all your replies.
I probably won't get the book "Canberra in Southern African Service" as it sells for over $100 + shipping.
Too pricey for me, on the off chance it might have useful info.
The MB Mk3CS seats are done by CMK: 
https://www.super-hobby.com/products/Martin-Baker-Mk.3-type-3CS-ejection-seat-for-Canberra-PR-Mk.9-1-48-for-Airfix-kit.html
Does the Pilot and the Navigator both use the same type of seat?
I see that Pavla does a Martin-Baker Mk.4QS that is listed for the Navigator:
https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/PAVS48033?result-token=8KOmw

Can I correctly assume that the Pilot and Navigator used different marks of seats? Is that also the case for the Canberra PR9?
I will definitely get those Model Alliance decals, and my friend can use some of them as well, as we will both be working on the same kit.
I just hope they have some markings for the later SAAF paint scheme of overall PRU blue.
As for the camera fit, I may just use my recce experience and do a SWAG (Scientific Wild-Assed Guess) as to their location in the gun pod.
Larry

Edited April 16, 2022 by ReccePhreak
spelling

[canberra kid]

Larry, only the pilot had a bag seat, the nav had to use the door and jump! No need to guess regards the camera fit, unless you're in a big rush to get it built, I may find time tomorrow to fill in the details. 

John

[David Womby]

10 minutes ago, ReccePhreak said:

Thanks @stevehnz, @canberra kid, & @David Womby  for all your replies.
I probably won't get the book "Canberra in Southern African Service" as it sells for over $100 + shipping.
Too pricey for me, on the off chance it might have useful info.
The MB Mk3CS seats are done by CMK: 
https://www.super-hobby.com/products/Martin-Baker-Mk.3-type-3CS-ejection-seat-for-Canberra-PR-Mk.9-1-48-for-Airfix-kit.html
Does the Pilot and the Navigator both use the same type of seat?
I see that Pavla does a Martin-Baker Mk.4QS that is listed for the Navigator:
https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/PAVS48033?result-token=8KOmw

Can I correctly assume that the Pilot and Navigator used differnt marks of seats? Is that also the case for the Canberra PR9?
I will definitely get those Model Alliance decals, and my friend can use some of them as well, as we will both be working on the same kit.
I just hope they have some markings for the later SAAF paint scheme of overall PRU blue.
As for the camera fit, I may just use my recce experience and do a SWAG (Scientific Wild-Assed Guess) as to their location in the gun pod.
Larry

Larry

 

I have the book and can look up anything you need but its focus is more of an operational record with pics and less of a modelers' reference for details.

 

David

[ReccePhreak]

John, thanks for that info. I'm not in a rush on building the Canberra kits right now. Just getting all the data & needed aftermarket together.

Can the Navigator seat even be seen, on the PR.9 & B(I)8, if you don't open the nose?

Larry

Edited April 16, 2022 by ReccePhreak
spelling

[ReccePhreak]

Thanks @David Womby , that's what I was afraid of.

[canberra kid]

4 hours ago, ReccePhreak said:

John, thanks for that info. I'm not in a rush on building the Canberra kits right now. Just getting all the data & needed aftermarket together.

Can the Navigator seat even be seen, on the PR.9 & B(I)8, if you don't open the nose?

Larry

No, both are completely hidden, you can't even see much of the cockpit unless it's a PR.9 (only) with the canopy open.

 

John

 

[ReccePhreak]

7 minutes ago, canberra kid said:

No, both are completely hidden, you can't even see much of the cockpit unless it's a PR.9 (only) with the canopy open.

 

John

 

Thanks John,

Maybe I should just see how well I can "Tart Up" the kit seats, basing it on available photos & drawings?

I remember seeing a Canberra PR.9 close up at an airshow, back when I was stationed at RAF Alconbury. The nose was opened up and was so dark & cramped, I hoped the Navigator wasn't claustrophobic. Didn't they nickname the nose compartment the "Coal Hole"?

I am looking forward to see what info you can come up with, concerning the B(I)12 cameras & pod. No rush though, as I have lots of models to work on in the meantime.

Larry

[canberra kid]

8 minutes ago, ReccePhreak said:

Thanks John,

Maybe I should just see how well I can "Tart Up" the kit seats, basing it on available photos & drawings?

I remember seeing a Canberra PR.9 close up at an airshow, back when I was stationed at RAF Alconbury. The nose was opened up and was so dark & cramped, I hoped the Navigator wasn't claustrophobic. Didn't they nickname the nose compartment the "Coal Hole"?

I am looking forward to see what info you can come up with, concerning the B(I)12 cameras & pod. No rush though, as I have lots of models to work on in the meantime.

Larry

The Coal hole was apt, both in the PR.9 and all other British Canberra's. I'm in the process of gathering the info, the SAAF 12's had quite a comprehensive recon fit. 

 

John