What is it about Luft 46?

[AdrianMF]

In my weekly email from Jadlam Racing, I see that  I can buy no less than four different 1/32 scale kits of Do 335 variants from HK Models for over 150 quid apiece, which starts to make the Lancaster look like a steal at “only” 300-odd quid.

 

I'm not sure Dornier even built four different marks of the Do335, let alone flew them! And add several more variants of the same from Zoukei Mura to the same scale and similar price, and the 1/18 scale kit…

 

Can there be a drawing by a WWII German aircraft designer on the back of a fag packet or a napkin that hasn’t been kitted by someone?

 

What is it with Luft 46? It must sell well in the market, but clearly not with me!

 

Rant over. Back to choosing Albacore colour schemes that might actually have existed…

 

Regards,

Adrian

[John Thompson]

I see your point - some of the weirder "back of a fag packet" designs are offputting, but to each his own. I think the popularity of the Do.335 is due to its brutish good looks, its unusual fore-and-aft twin engine design, and maybe Pierre Clostermann's account of having one just walk away from his Tempest while flying flat out in pursuit. And I suppose there's an element of rooting for the underdog, which by the (real) end of the war, the Nazis definitely were. The thought of struggling bravely onward with magical aircraft designs capable of turning the tide of defeat may have an appealing purity that allows one to ignore the reality of the horrors below, in places like Auschwitz and Bergen-Belsen...

 

John

[Wulfman]

Most of the available kits are designers’ wild dreams which would never have seen the light of day, however they make a good “pallet cleanser”as there’s no restrictions on colour schemes or authenticity.

 

Wulfman

Edited April 15, 2022 by Wulfman

[JohnT]

I’ve had it explained to me as a popular niche and not so small niche market which is quite lucrative. Personally I’d rather see manufacturing effort going into some kits that are only now seeing the light day and some still not even in the shadows of night in respect of unkitted mainstream IM plastic 

 

EG

1/32. Marauder, Dornier 17, Boston, decent EELightning, Jaguar etc not forgetting Come on where is that Spey Phantom ??

 

1/48. Halifax, Stirling, Hampden ((FM doesn’t count ), the list goes on

 

But as always each to his own though I sometimes wonder why no thriving USAAF / RAF / Italy/ Soviet/ Japanese 46 kits?  

[Paul H]

31 minutes ago, JohnT said:

But as always each to his own though I sometimes wonder why no thriving USAAF / RAF / Italy/ Soviet/ Japanese 46 kits?  

 

Didn't we get most of those in reality though (at least, the Allied ones) - e.g. the Vampire etc?

[Giorgio N]

I'm no fan of the whole Luftwaffe '46 thing but I can see why some subjects can be attractive: they are different, sometimes very different. Yes a RAF '46 theme may be interesting as well, but would we have ? The Spiteful and the MB-5 afterall are just two other pretty "standard" WW2 piston engined fighters, not particularly different in concept from a Spitfire or a Mustang. British jet designs in the end saw service, although mostly after the war. What's the fascination of say a Vampire F.1 in WW2 RAF markings ? I can build one in real postwar RAF markings and would look pretty much the same.

Something like the Do.335 and other contemporary projects however really is different and unusual and adding to their design the variety of Luftwaffe late war colour schemes can result in models that differ a lot from the typical WW2 subject

Of course it could be said that US types did not lack a certain "weird" factor as things like the XP-55 or XP-67 sure looked different enough, still I guess they are just seen as forgotten prototypes.

 

There is then one other aspect, probably even more important, behind the whole fascination with these subjects: right or wrong, late war German technology has been for decades depicted as the most advanced possible, with many claims of projects so ahead of their time to be totally revolutionary. We have heard of every kind of nazi wonder weapon, from the ultra-heavy tanks to the supersonic jet fighters, from invincible submarines to bases in the antarctica. Naxi secret projects have been the subject of comics and movies and later of videogames, how could the plastic kit world not take notice ?
Why this ? Well, some may not like it but in reality the main responsibility lays with Western allied propaganda. The exaltation of the military virtues and capabilities of the enemy has always been an important factor in the propaganda of the winning side, Caesar already did that when writing his "De Bello Gallico". Most Victorian era reports on military campaigns are full of such attitude, rarely it was written that the enemy consisted of forces with no hope of victory thanks to the huge disparity in weapons and resources, the enemies always had to be depicted with some strength in order to further glorify the victory of the men in a red coat (or blue, or green depending on the country). I mean, even the charge of the Light Brigade, that was a useless defeat, was made into a feat of glory !

WW2 was no different. It was also such a defining moment in History and changed so much the world that the enemy was exalted even more. The more advanced the enemy weapons were made to appear, the more valiant the actions of the victors would have been. And more, the closer the nazis were shown to be to some weapon capable of changing the outcome of the war, the more the victory agains them would have been seen as crucial for the future of the world.

It's no surprise that in the movies and comics mentioned above, the nazis may come with incredible weapons but in the end it's the British or the Americans that win the day through their qualities, in the end it's just the application to paper or film of the same concept.

To us modellers this has meant the release of a large number of types that never flew and often weren't even built. All types with impressive on-paper performances of course, aircraft that could have changed to war... but they didn't. Still, some sure look very cool !

[AdrianMF]

Erm, cough, shuffle, mumble, I suppose I should own up to having two He177s and an Fw187 in the stash... 😳

 

 

[alt-92]

Ah, but those are actually built and flown (the Falke obviously not in operational use).

 

I'll admit not having any affinity with or love for pipedream luftwaffle business - other than taking it for paper projects just so the designers could claim to be too busy and avoid being sent to the front.

 

[John Thompson]

1 hour ago, JohnT said:

I’ve had it explained to me as a popular niche and not so small niche market which is quite lucrative.

Hey, maybe some of these designs weren't even napkin scribbles - maybe the kit manufacturers just invented them to feed the demand!

 

John

[Old Man]

2 hours ago, AdrianMF said:

In my weekly email from Jadlam Racing, I see that  I can buy no less than four different 1/32 scale kits of Do 335 variants from HK Models for over 150 quid apiece, which starts to make the Lancaster look like a steal at “only” 300-odd quid.

 

I'm not sure Dornier even built four different marks of the Do335, let alone flew them! And add several more variants of the same from Zoukei Mura to the same scale and similar price, and the 1/18 scale kit…

 

Can there be a drawing by a WWII German aircraft designer on the back of a fag packet or a napkin that hasn’t been kitted by someone?

 

What is it with Luft 46? It must sell well in the market, but clearly not with me!

 

Rant over. Back to choosing Albacore colour schemes that might actually have existed…

 

Regards,

Adrian

 

 

Hear hear, Sir!

 

To each their own, it takes all kinds, and so forth and so on, but still....

 

I think the Squadron 'Hanabu' (or whatever it was) flying saucer kit was peak 'Fanta-Luft'. And it is all fantasy, the idea Germany could have continued fighting into 1946 at all, let alone produced service quantities of highly advanced weaponry, is simply ludicrous.

[John Thompson]

38 minutes ago, Old Man said:

I think the Squadron 'Hanabu' (or whatever it was) flying saucer kit was peak 'Fanta-Luft'. And it is all fantasy, the idea Germany could have continued fighting into 1946 at all, let alone produced service quantities of highly advanced weaponry, is simply ludicrous.

I've thought the same thing - obviously for the development of weapons like the trans-Atlantic jet-powered "Amerikabomber", "Luft '46" would have had to begin at least 10 years earlier!

 

John

[Giorgio N]

1 hour ago, AdrianMF said:

Erm, cough, shuffle, mumble, I suppose I should own up to having two He177s and an Fw187 in the stash... 😳

 

 

 

Can't see anything bad in it,... have a 177 myself (and built the old Airfix when I was a kid) and the only reason I don't have an FW.187 is because I haven't find one for a good price yet 😃

I wouldn't mind a Bf..162, not really Luftwaffe '46 but an interesting prototype nonetheless

[gingerbob]

2 hours ago, JohnT said:

Personally I’d rather see manufacturing effort going into some kits that are only now seeing the light day and some still not even in the shadows of night in respect of unkitted mainstream IM plastic 

 

EG

1/48. Hampden ((FM doesn’t count )

 

Oi- show some respect!  I've only just gotten one (and yes, I had a pretty good idea of what I was in for, but it is better than the other 1/48 Hampdens... maybe.  The best thing about it is that I didn't pay very much 😉.  That and I can say, "I don't think he'll be very keen- he's already got one, you see!")

 

 

1 hour ago, Giorgio N said:

The exaltation of the military virtues and capabilities of the enemy has always been an important factor in the propaganda of the winning side... rarely it was written that the enemy consisted of forces with no hope of victory thanks to the huge disparity in weapons and resources, the enemies always had to be depicted with some strength in order to further glorify the victory of the men in a red coat (or blue, or green depending on the country).

 

Excellent point.

 

I had my early-adolescent period of fascination with Luft '46, but eventually I grew out of it.  I won't comment further lest it be deemed (or recognized as) political commentary. 

 

As for the Fw 187, I've got the Special Hobby kit in 72nd, but I wish I could get both single-seat prototype and "production" version in 48th.  It seems I've got a thing for low-slung, (seemingly) over-powered twins!

Edited April 15, 2022 by gingerbob
Oh, something terribly important, I'm sure.

[SafetyDad]

OK, OK, I'm going to own up here and fly the flag (apparently by myself!) for the virtues of Luft '46 modelling.

 

For me it goes back to my modelling days in the 1970s, where Airfix was king and Frog radical and daring (and, more expensive - a significant issue on a pocket money budget). But Airfix Magazine carried adverts for companies such as Lindberg, who did kits of exotica such as the He 162, the He 100 and the Do335. The closest I could get to this was the Airfix Me 262. The attraction then, and still now, was the departure from the norm. I don't have much time for the 'alternate reality' side of Luft '46, for me it's the different designs and shapes involved. Of course it makes little sense when you step back and place these designs into the real world, but modelling for me has always involved a healthy dose of imagination (and as I get older - nostalgia).

 

So, just a little tongue-in-cheek,  shame on you all detractors - Luft '46 is escapism pure and simple. It's what might have been and what excites your imagination. Isn't that true for most modelling? Not so different from sci-fi or 'what if' modelling really. I'll admit to having a fairly well stocked stache of these models - now where's my Triebflugel?

 

SD

[Space Ranger]

The only Luftwaffe ‘46 models I’m interested in are those of captured German aircraft in markings of the Allies’ air forces. We won, they lost. Those “paper projects” may be technically interesting but are relevant only as reminders of an odious regime whose actions remain a blot on human history.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Space Ranger

[Mike]

I'm one of those that quite like Luft'46 as well as other weird & wonderful projects by other sides and from other eras.  I often shake my head at people that actively hate on any genre that they "don't get", because it's just got nothing to do with them, and is none of their business.  Everyone's entitled to like what they like (within reason of course, as you can find exceptions to everything if you try hard enough), without any input from other people who either look down upon them, or are jealous that they're getting models made for their genre, when they haven't got a so-and-so that they want.  It's akin to a virtual tantrum and stamping of feet, and really doesn't come off as very pleasant or grown-up.

 

Model companies are all about the money at the end of the day.  They will create kits of subjects that they think will sell in large quantities so that they make a profit, so if your favourite subject isn't getting made, it's a possibility that it just ain't as popular as you like to think.   All the model companies can't be wrong, surely?  

[alt-92]

 

1 hour ago, SafetyDad said:

OK, OK, I'm going to own up here and fly the flag (apparently by myself!) for the virtues of Luft '46 modelling

[....]

I don't have much time for the 'alternate reality' side of Luft '46, for me it's the different designs and shapes involved.

Ok, now you have me confused. 

 

Luft'46 is primarily those paper projects that never saw daylight imo.

I'm fine with a Salamander or 335 or captured bird  At least those were built and flown.

[3DStewart]

I think the attraction of Luft '46 is that they never had to survive contact with physics, usefulness, maintainability etc.  They will forever be exciting and fantastic in the minds of people who like that sort of stuff.

 

I live six miles from the RAF museum at Cosford which has a hanger full of research planes and prototypes that have never been kitted, certainly not by anyone mainstream.  The difference with these RAF/UK 'weirdos' is that they all made contact with reality and were found lacking.  So they have little mystique.

[SafetyDad]

2 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

 

Ok, now you have me confused. 

 

Luft'46 is primarily those paper projects that never saw daylight imo.

I'm fine with a Salamander or 335 or captured bird  At least those were built and flown.

 

I meant that I have no interest in imagining a war that continued into 1946, I simply enjoy the departures from the aerodynamic norm that Luft 46 offers.

 

SD

[JohnT]

3 hours ago, Mike said:

I'm one of those that quite like Luft'46 as well as other weird & wonderful projects by other sides and from other eras.  I often shake my head at people that actively hate on any genre that they "don't get", because it's just got nothing to do with them, and is none of their business.  Everyone's entitled to like what they like (within reason of course, as you can find exceptions to everything if you try hard enough), without any input from other people who either look down upon them, or are jealous that they're getting models made for their genre, when they haven't got a so-and-so that they want.  It's akin to a virtual tantrum and stamping of feet, and really doesn't come off as very pleasant or grown-up.

 

Model companies are all about the money at the end of the day.  They will create kits of subjects that they think will sell in large quantities so that they make a profit, so if your favourite subject isn't getting made, it's a possibility that it just ain't as popular as you like to think.   All the model companies can't be wrong, surely?  

Wouldn’t disagree with a word there Mike. My mental stumbling block is just why is Luft 46 so successful and kitted so often while other subjects that you’d think would be on the shelves aren’t there. I know model companies will produce what they think will sell and separately that the hobby surely is big enough for Luft 46 to thrive as well.  
To attempt an example I find it odd that - to rake an example - HK Models produce a 1/32 Mitchell in two versions but not the Marauder and nor does anyone else. Yet they do the Do335 in all versions. Now here I accept they know best and better than I but I’d have guessed a 1/32 Marauder would sell well in the US market and tolerably well elsewhere. Yet there seems little appetite for it? 
 

Here is to hoping that the hobby continues to expand and that the “ holes” get filled

 

PS

4 hours ago, gingerbob said:

 

Oi- show some respect!  I've only just gotten one (and yes, I had a pretty good idea of what I was in for, but it is better than the other 1/48 Hampdens... maybe.  The best thing about it is that I didn't pay very much 😉.  That and I can say, "I don't think he'll be very keen- he's already got one, you see!")

 

 

 

I’ve got one too but it 😱 scares me but not as much as the 1/32 Vac I bought in a weak moment - stupid brain burp? 

[Giorgio N]

3 hours ago, 3DStewart said:

I think the attraction of Luft '46 is that they never had to survive contact with physics, usefulness, maintainability etc.  They will forever be exciting and fantastic in the minds of people who like that sort of stuff.

 

I live six miles from the RAF museum at Cosford which has a hanger full of research planes and prototypes that have never been kitted, certainly not by anyone mainstream.  The difference with these RAF/UK 'weirdos' is that they all made contact with reality and were found lacking.  So they have little mystique.

 

At least one of the types in Cosford however has fascinated modellers and enthusiasts alike for many years; the aura surroounding the TSR.2 is, at least in Britain, quite bright and the type enjoys an almost mythical status regardless of its actual pros and cons.

Other postwar prototypes have quite a following, like the CF-105 and the Northrop flying wing bombers.

[Bozothenutter]

Wasn't everything the Germans came up with after '42-'43 or so basically an answer looking for a question?

[SafetyDad]

38 minutes ago, Bozothenutter said:

Wasn't everything the Germans came up with after '42-'43 or so basically an answer looking for a question?

 

 

Not quite. The Amerikabomber, high altitude fighters and flying wings were just short of the technological possibilities of the times. Subsequent progress has shown these to be entirely plausible if the technology of the day can catch up. 

 

Hence the attraction...

 

 

SD  

[cmatthewbacon]

Given Paperclip, aren't the more feasible Luft '46 projects basically Bell, JPL, Redstone and North American '47?

best,
M.

[Troy Smith]

It's been going on a long time,  in crude terms "the nazis looked good/are cool"   as well as other more dubious fascinations.....

 

Though, I'm dryly amused that by the end of the war,  German infantry uniform was copying the British utilitarian battle dress,  with the short BD top and short boots with canvas anklets...    

(I'm now seeing an Airfix Multipose mash up here...) 

EDIT - those trousers camo pattern bugged me... seems it is this, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telo_mimetico  using captured/confiscated material.  

 

  though, in part, much is due to this... 

9 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

WW2 was no different. It was also such a defining moment in History and changed so much the world that the enemy was exalted even more. The more advanced the enemy weapons were made to appear, the more valiant the actions of the victors would have been. And more, the closer the nazis were shown to be to some weapon capable of changing the outcome of the war, the more the victory agains them would have been seen as crucial for the future of the world.

It's no surprise that in the movies and comics mentioned above, the nazis may come with incredible weapons but in the end it's the British or the Americans that win the day through their qualities, in the end it's just the application to paper or film of the same concept.

 

Back in my youth, I used to happily spend ages and ages in model shops, and I'd talk to the owners if they were chatty,  I was doing WW2 military at the time, and the shop owner said "it 80% German, 10% American, 10% the rest"  

Which was blinkin annoying as  me and mate had a deal, I had the allies and he had the axis....   and most of the British kit was for the desert war...  

 

 

And it's not just Luft 46,  there are numerous kits of one offs, prototypes and various paper panzers,  let alone the sheer amount of basically everything German available that was used,  we  had a bunfight here about various German Aircraft carrier kits (sum total of real ones built and used =0 ) while there are various classes of British carriers that are served very poorly, if at all. 

  

9 hours ago, JohnT said:

I sometimes wonder why no thriving USAAF / RAF /

again - not German kudos, but there are kits of these,  but less, though Trumpeter did do a Spiteful/Seafang.... not very well admittedly...

And there is a whole family of MB.5 kits, even an MB.6 from AZ. 

And Czechmodel did a few fascinating 1/48th US prototypes,  a look reveals 3 1/48 kits of the XP-55

https://www.scalemates.com/search.php?fkSECTION[]=All&q=1%3A48+xp-55*

an XP-77 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/czech-model-4803-bell-xp-77--379792

XP-56 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/czech-model-4808-northrop-xp-56-black-bullet--142772

 

and here's a real USN 'Luft 46'

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/czech-model-4816-ryan-xf2r-1-dark-shark--100810

 

 

Maybe we should get feed false info to Trumpeter of an XP-67 Bat with crosses and late war Luftwaffe camo and we have whole family available

 

 

9 hours ago, JohnT said:

Italy/

well... maybe Italy 44...   

9 hours ago, JohnT said:

Soviet/

You did get some Soviet projects, but a lot of these were actual prototypes,  not paper projects.   

Worth bearing in mind that various British, US and Soviet '46' projects  had some German input....   

 

 in that way MiG-15's and F-86's are the REAL luft 46 kits

 

9 hours ago, JohnT said:

Japanese 46 kits?  

You get a few of these. 

 

Me, I'm waiting for a 1/48th B-32 Dominator and Vickers Windsor myself    

 

I mean, who here isn't  .... 

 

and an a 1/48th Yermolayev-2 as well please

 

This must be one of the protoypes,  image picked for the offset canopy...     

 

PS fortunately for all of us, the Nazi were a bunch of clowns.... evil psychotic ones, but full of backbiting, infighting, non co-operating  intrigue, double dealing deluded fantasists with crazy ideas on race,  who planned first for a short war (eg no Bf109 replacement, like the Me209 using 65% common parts) spent vast resources on trying be clever, eg He177,  all the big tanks, V-1, V-2,  but not going onto a total war footing until 1942....   Not putting Speer incharge earlier... German Aircraft production peaked in Sep 44, let alone dismissing Jewish science or not taking full advantage of massive anti Soviet feeling in the Soviet Union, well, until too late ... perhaps the phrase evil sows the seeds of it's own downfall has some truth...