Bf109E, Astonishing color footage of III./JG 3 at Desvres in late 1940/early 1941

[Troy Smith]

links posted up on Hyperscale, 

 

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/astonishing-color-footage-of-iii-jg-3-at-desvres-i-t530457.html

 

for example

 

points made by Lynn Ritger  (and note the difference in yellows in the above) 

- The 04 on the nose really does look like "school bus yellow" - it's VERY orange.  And yes, even though there's a bit of a red/yellow shift in the film print, it's still much more orange than I expected to see.  I feel like I have to go repaint a couple of my Emils now, LOL

- The code numbers on the 9. Staffel aircraft are likely to be in RLM 27

- The camouflage looks a whole lot like either RLM 74/75 or the famous "mixed greys" - these aircraft do not seem to be in 02/71.  Also, if you freeze the shot of the tail of "gelbe 7", you can see that the Hakenkreuz has been masked and a new, lighter shade of 65 (or 76?) has been applied to the airframe... the deeper blue of the original 65 is still visible between the arms of the Hakenkreuz.

- The one aircraft taxiing in completely devoid of markings or mottling is very interesting... maybe it was being transferred in from another unit?

- The shiny finish on these aircraft is particularly noteworthy- these were well cared for.  (Yes, I know it was common practice to polish the aircraft, but I don't recall seeing too many Emils looking like entrants in a car show like this, LOL)

- There's a quick passing shot of a full yellow tail with no Hakenkreuz applied... that was a massive surprise to see.  There's a well known 2./JG 3 Emil photo showing this full yellow tail treatment but the Hakenkreuz was carefully masked on that one... this one doesn't have anything at all.

- Per Eduardo Brettas, "schwarze 5" is very likely the aircraft of Lt. Franz Beyer

The original poster thought this was Le Touquet but III./JG 3 was based at Desvres from Aug 8 1940 to Feb 16, 1941... given the yellow rudders and full yellow noses, this has to be between late October 1940 and Feb 1941.

 

 

 

Very interesting discussion as well with  more details. 

I'll @SafetyDad @FalkeEins  @Graham Boak 

 

Something to mause you over the Easter Weekend I hope

 

 

 

[G.R.Morrison]

The "gelbe  7" was the machine of the Staffelkapitän, Viktor Bauer (that's him wearing the life preserver, speaking to a group).
This began a 9./JG 3 tradition of the Staffelkapitän using "7", which they continued into 1944 (the last example I recall being

Bf 109G-6 WNr.440117 of Lt. Hans-Martin Stein, killed 12.April 1944 in an emergency landing at Leobersdorf).

GRM

 

P.S. - yes, the "schwarze 5" of the 8./JG 3 was indeed the machine of Franz Beyer.

 

Ich bin kein 'Experte' - nur Historiker.

[SafetyDad]

There's so much detail in there - the differing yellows and greys as already highlighted, plus the 66 cockpit framings. I've always had a sneaking suspicion that one of the problems we modellers have with Luftwaffe colours is that we only see what we think should be there.  So, were these shots to be in B&W, we would never entertain the idea that the two yellows varied or the greys might be non-standard, because that's not what the rules and regulations say.  That's not an excuse on my part for 'any colour will do', rather my belief that things were more non-standard and improvisational than we modellers allow ourselves to think. Supporting my view is that the limited colour evidence we have from our vantage point nearly 80 years on continues to surprise and challenge us - as here.

 

Thanks for posting the link - I used to post there but haven't visited for a long time

 

SD

[Ingo Ritz]

Can someone post a link to the video for those of us who don't subscribe to Tapatalk.  Thanks!

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, Ingo Ritz said:

Can someone post a link to the video for those of us who don't subscribe to Tapatalk. 

I don't know if this will work,  and I'm not sure of the Facebook page it was originally on, and those are sometimes private groups.

anyway this is the link given https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/download/file.php?id=138475

2 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

Supporting my view is that the limited colour evidence we have from our vantage point nearly 80 years on continues to surprise and challenge us

 

There are 4 pages of random colour Luftwaffe images here in this Flickr ,  which are well worth a browse.   Not very well organised.

 

Yes, that is an all black G6/AS.  

cheers

T

 

 

[G.R.Morrison]

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

an all black G6/AS

That was one of Manfred Dieterle's machines with the 2./EJG 2

 

GRM

 

Ich bin kein 'Experte' - nur Historiker.

[SafetyDad]

Thanks @Troy Smith for the link - many I had seen before but there were some new to me.

At the risk of hijacking your thread about the Bf 109Es, this picture from your link  demonstrates exactly what I was saying above about colour evidence surprising us

 

 

I believe Merrick refers to the wing underwing colour here (there's a similar shot in his Classic 2 volume set on colours) as 'concrete' - very descriptive and works for me. The beauty of this shot is that there are (at least) two undercolours in the same colour picture.  So any argument about colour shift or film type used accounting for an odd looking colour is very difficult, if not impossible, to make successfully.

Both the 'concrete' and the cowl ring blue are, to say the least, a bit odd. 

And that gear leg is red.

Most of this would have been lost in a B&W shot

 

SD

 

[Phoenix44]

2 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

Thanks @Troy Smith for the link - many I had seen before but there were some new to me.

At the risk of hijacking your thread about the Bf 109Es, this picture from your link  demonstrates exactly what I was saying above about colour evidence surprising us

 

 

I believe Merrick refers to the wing underwing colour here (there's a similar shot in his Classic 2 volume set on colours) as 'concrete' - very descriptive and works for me. The beauty of this shot is that there are (at least) two undercolours in the same colour picture.  So any argument about colour shift or film type used accounting for an odd looking colour is very difficult, if not impossible, to make successfully.

Both the 'concrete' and the cowl ring blue are, to say the least, a bit odd. 

And that gear leg is red.

Most of this would have been lost in a B&W shot

 

SD

 

The gear leg is not red. It appears to have a red wire/hose and/or some red discolouration or wear through to a primer. Most of the leg is clearly a grey. As for two colours, I give you a modern, high quality photo of a warbird that we know for certain is painted in one colour overall - yet thst lower wing just doesn't look the same. It might be "concrete" because that's the colour being reflected from what might be wet concrete judging by the sky.

[Phoenix44]

I'm cautious about saying those are different yellows in that photo, not just because it's old and cine film but because the diffuse light appears to be from above (enough to create shadows) so the rounded cowling gets some direct light but the flat sided rudder gets very little. From the shadow it's possible the light is right to left a bit too. I'm betting this Texan is painted in one yellow but the variation due the light is huge. Compare say the area above the national insignia with the wing tip or the u/c doors with the rudder or wheel hubs.

[SafetyDad]

Sorry @Phoenix44 but with respect I can't agree at all with your take on the concrete colour in the FW 190 shot - the same colour appears on the engine cowling as well. Granted there's some colour shift in the photo, but to me it's a real colour nonetheless rather than a reflection. Merrick also thinks so. Your warbird example is painted in high gloss, as is the Texan, so reflections do occur. The Fw is not and the grass behind looks dry to my eyes. 

 

It seems a pity when, in my view, there is something unusual in terms of colour in front of us here that challenges conventional beliefs but that seems to produce an attempt to explain it away, rather than consider it might just be real?

 

There is ample evidence that undocumented colours (or variations on colours) existed and were employed in the finishing of late-war Luftwaffe aircraft, such as the grey used on the sides of the Me 262 at the NASM.

 

Or here

 

 

and here

 

 

Source:

 

 

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree here - you're entitled to your view as am I and I have no intention here to cause offence. I've seen too many of these threads on Luftwaffe colours go South in a big way, and I certainly don't want that. However you may well be right about the gear leg though. Primer or a wire? Quite possibly on a closer look.

 

Let's get back to Troy's Bf 109Es - they also have produced their fair share of colour surprises and challenges

 

SD

 

[Tim R-T-C]

20 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

. I've always had a sneaking suspicion that one of the problems we modellers have with Luftwaffe colours is that we only see what we think should be there.  So, were these shots to be in B&W, we would never entertain the idea that the two yellows varied or the greys might be non-standard, because that's not what the rules and regulations say.  That's not an excuse on my part for 'any colour will do', rather my belief that things were more non-standard and improvisational than we modellers allow ourselves to think.

 

Definitely true - one must also consider of course that non-standard schemes are less likely to have been photographed/filmed.

 

The group captain whose ground crew mixed up RLM paint tins wouldn't have wanted his planes appearing on official photos!

Edited April 16, 2022 by Tim R-T-C

[brewerjerry]

Hi

    Many years ago i  was told red paint was used on german undercarriage legs as an instant easy reminder to ground crew to use a different type of fuel 

    cheers

        jerry 

[G.R.Morrison]

On 4/15/2022 at 11:01 AM, Ingo Ritz said:

Can someone post a link to the video for those of us who don't subscribe to Tapatalk

Mr. Ritz,

You asked for a link. 

https://archiv-akh.de/filme?utf-8=✓&q=%232826#1

 

This is from the extensive Karl Hoeffkes Archiv, and the film is a hodge-podge of material.

 

The color film of the III/JG 3 begins at 10:58:18, and followed by some Hs 126 footage.

 

Some earlier segments include:

10:21:40  ‘Simba’ the lion cub of the II/JG 3

 

10:31:33  Bf 109E-4/B of the I/JG 3 being loaded with a SC 250 bomb.  Chalked “Für London” on the port side, and “Primo Bonbon!” on the starboard

 

10:35:05  stashing the starter crank of a Bf 109E in the compartment behind the pilot’s seat

 

10:45:46  Ju 52 landing sequence – note the wooden control wheel

10:46:20  ‘Tatzelwurm’ emblem of the I/JG 3 on the port cowl of the Ju 52

 

10:51:23  Kommodore of the JG 3 Günther Lützow taxiing his triple-chevron Bf 109E-4 (probably WNr.3742)

 

GRM

 

"Ich bin kein 'Experte' -- nur Historiker."

[Ingo Ritz]

Thank you Mr. Morrison!

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

On 4/15/2022 at 12:09 PM, Troy Smith said:

I don't know if this will work,  and I'm not sure of the Facebook page it was originally on, and those are sometimes private groups.

anyway this is the link given https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/download/file.php?id=138475

 

There are 4 pages of random colour Luftwaffe images here in this Flickr ,  which are well worth a browse.   Not very well organised.

 

Yes, that is an all black G6/AS.  

cheers

T

 

 

Hmmm Interesting ? I posted the same photo a couple of years ago thinking it was black. I was told it was just very over developed and badly processed and not black but two dark greens. I wonder which is correct ?

 

Dennis

[SafetyDad]

7 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Hmmm Interesting ? I posted the same photo a couple of years ago thinking it was black. I was told it was just very over developed and badly processed and not black but two dark greens. I wonder which is correct ?

 

Dennis

 

Hi Dennis

I believe it's now accepted that this aircraft was black. Axel Urbanke in his Luftwaffe im Focus series has covered the aircraft twice - once from a black and white print, and a second time when this colour print was discovered. He also highlighted that the gear legs were not red, as he had believed was the case from the B&W print. There had also been uncertainty around the numeral colour, with several believing this was red. The colour print resolved that.

Another example, at the risk of my repeating my idea, of the extent to which we Luftwaffe enthusiasts tend to be discouraged from deviating from what are believed to be the 'rules' even when the evidence is set in front of us.

 

My 2p

 

SD

[Milos Gazdic]

if you take the photo & brighten it you will notice camouflage pattern showing through & yellow cowling areas too.
For me it still seems like a resprayed airframe but I am not sure what Mr Urbanke brought as the conclusion once the color shot surfaced?

[SafetyDad]

1 hour ago, Milos Gazdic said:

For me it still seems like a resprayed airframe but I am not sure what Mr Urbanke brought as the conclusion once the color shot surfaced?

 

I'll check my copies of LiF and let you know. I'm pretty sure he maintained it's black.

 

Added:

 

Yes Black. It's pictured in LiF Spezial No 2 - 1945. It was photographed at Gardelegen immediately after capture by US troops. Urbanke refers to it as 'all-black'. To be fair Milos, the black is patchy and I think I can see the outlines of the original factory-applied camouflage finish as you suggest in your quote above. 

 

SD

[Milos Gazdic]

I believe it was an overpaint done on unit level and with not so heavy coverage. I wish I could post images here to show the image I have edited.

[FalkeEins]

On 4/18/2022 at 8:32 AM, SafetyDad said:

 

the black is patchy and I think I can see the outlines of the original factory-applied camouflage finish as you suggest in your quote above. 

 

SD

 

..a bit late on this one  again!.....Joachim Geier in the German-language "Jet & Prop" magazine issue 3/2003 wrote an article entitled " Die schwarze "Grüne 5" der 2./Erg.JG2 "  the first to publish views of these machines. Sister ships "Grüne 6" and "Grüne 7" featured 'standard' upper surface colours with some areas of their airframes, such as the yellow lower cowl, in a cross-hatched black over-spray, while "Grüne 5" was sprayed black overall. More photos at a link near here ......