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Famous 85 Sq Hurricane photo, and maybe an identity?


Troy Smith

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Famous BoB era pic of 85 Sq B flight.

33880454768_e2077d21b2_b.jpg85 Squadron 39 by Сергей Кривицкий, on Flickr

 

Often reproduced,  

"B' Flight 85 Squadron at RAF Castle Camps 10th July 1940.
P/O John Laurence Bickerdike (NZ) KIFA 22/7/40 aged 21
F/O Patrick Philip Woods-Scawen DFC KIA 1/9/40 aged 24
F/O James Lockhart Kia 5/4/42 aged 26
F/Lt Richard Hugh Anthony Lee DFC DSO - KIA 18/8/40 aged 23
Sgt Leonard Jowitt - KIA 12/7/40 aged 28
F/Lt Dave 'Monty' Bieber MO (survived)
Sgt Ernest Reginald Webster died 1969 aged 51

 

Just been discussed on Farcebook, reminded me I did try to pin down the identity...

I spent some time squinting at what can be seen of the serial, you can kinda see the last 3 digits. Given the date, and prop, it's a P**** serial. The last 3 digits look to be 87?  (you can see the bottom of the 8, the are no P284x, blackout block, so can only be a 7, and looking through the relevant Air Britain has only one that 'fits' date and Sq, which is this, P2879, 85/229, damaged by Bf109 near Westcliffe, Essex, and abandoned. Crashed at Hoo, Kent, 23.9.40.

 

By this time 85 had been mauled, and pulled back to Church Fenton, Yorkshire, where those famous aerial images were taken. (see album linked)   Nothing else really fits what is vaguely visible, say Px34x, or Px37x and is listed as being with 85 sq. Earlier ones can be ruled out, eg P2547, was with 85, but lost in France 5.40. A play in a graphic program may bring out more details though.   


Plane is probably VY-N,  the only other option are M (doesn't really look like an M) and H, and it's not VY-H, which is here, 

85 Squadron 55

 

 

full 85 Sq album here 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/144949377@N05/albums/72157704898371932/with/40791046523/

 

Hope of interest

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On 4/14/2022 at 1:49 AM, Troy Smith said:

Famous BoB era pic of 85 Sq B flight.

33880454768_e2077d21b2_b.jpg85 Squadron 39 by Сергей Кривицкий, on Flickr

 

Often reproduced,  

"B' Flight 85 Squadron at RAF Castle Camps 10th July 1940.
P/O John Laurence Bickerdike (NZ) KIFA 22/7/40 aged 21
F/O Patrick Philip Woods-Scawen DFC KIA 1/9/40 aged 24
F/O James Lockhart Kia 5/4/42 aged 26
F/Lt Richard Hugh Anthony Lee DFC DSO - KIA 18/8/40 aged 23
Sgt Leonard Jowitt - KIA 12/7/40 aged 28
F/Lt Dave 'Monty' Bieber MO (survived)
Sgt Ernest Reginald Webster died 1969 aged 51

 

Just been discussed on Farcebook, reminded me I did try to pin down the identity...

I spent some time squinting at what can be seen of the serial, you can kinda see the last 3 digits. Given the date, and prop, it's a P**** serial. The last 3 digits look to be 87?  (you can see the bottom of the 8, the are no P284x, blackout block, so can only be a 7, and looking through the relevant Air Britain has only one that 'fits' date and Sq, which is this, P2879, 85/229, damaged by Bf109 near Westcliffe, Essex, and abandoned. Crashed at Hoo, Kent, 23.9.40.

 

By this time 85 had been mauled, and pulled back to Church Fenton, Yorkshire, where those famous aerial images were taken. (see album linked)   Nothing else really fits what is vaguely visible, say Px34x, or Px37x and is listed as being with 85 sq. Earlier ones can be ruled out, eg P2547, was with 85, but lost in France 5.40. A play in a graphic program may bring out more details though.   


Plane is probably VY-N,  the only other option are M (doesn't really look like an M) and H, and it's not VY-H, which is here, 

85 Squadron 55

 

 

full 85 Sq album here 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/144949377@N05/albums/72157704898371932/with/40791046523/

 

Hope of interest

Don't make the assumption that aircraft letters always tie up with registrations! Due to losses and damaged aircraft going back for repair many different aircraft could have the same letter, sometimes aircraft changed letter within a squadron.

 

Selwyn

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37 minutes ago, Selwyn said:

Don't make the assumption that aircraft letters always tie up with registrations! Due to losses and damaged aircraft going back for repair many different aircraft could have the same letter, sometimes aircraft changed letter within a squadron.

Good point.

But I'm not. 

Both  photos are from a Life Magazine shoot in July 1940.   The Pic of VY-N is dated July 10,  and note, Sgt Leonard Jowitt - KIA 12/7/40 aged 28. Two days after photo. 

 

So in this case,  it's a good probability. 

I look at the 85 Sq records online, which list code letter, not serial, which may help with additional details.

the whole set of 85 Sq pics is here

85 Squadron

note that 17 Sq also shared Debden at this time, and were alse extensively photographed.

17 Squadron

 

You see 85 Sq planes in these.  

 

given the ban on photography, these are an invaluable snapshot of  two squadrons at a know date,  including the Debden pain shop quirk of wavy high demarcation of underside colour, seen on VY-K, H, N, R, and YB-A, C, W.

 

A few years ago I tried putting the images of P3166 into photo order, showing a typical after landing sequence

see here

cheers

T

 

 

 

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@Troy Smith Having inverted the image into a negative, the last digit of the serial would appear to be a 9 and thus tie in with Air-Britain. When I get the chance later on (and if I remember!), I'll edit in the inverted image.

 

Regards,

 

Mark.

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I'm not sure if this adds any information, but 85 Sqn ORB for July 1940 lists B flight aircraft by serial no. and A flight by fuselage code letter.

The only B flight a/c serial numbers ending in 9 I could see listed up to and around 10th July were N2879 and P3409. To my eyes '879' at the end of the serial appears possible.

A flight had an H and a K but no N listed , so I presume B flight had an N as seems to be the likely code letter by the discussion so far.

regards,

Robert

Edited by rhagger
typo and interpretation of info
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Possibly an error in the ORB.

 

My only source for Hurricane production is from Francis Mason (The Hawker Hurricane, An Illustrated History) which includes a list of production numbers at the end of the book and a limited individual histories (with many gaps and incomplete information).

 

There is only a P2879 possible, not an N2879.

 

It would be great to have a complete listing of Hurricane aircraft and their histories as we have with the Spitfire - does one exist?

Edited by Peter Roberts
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1 hour ago, Peter Roberts said:

Possibly an error in the ORB.

Possibly, or alternatively a misinterptertation in reading it

1 hour ago, Peter Roberts said:

There is only a P2879 possible, not an N2879.

 

42 minutes ago, rhagger said:

The a/c is listed throughout the month as N2879.

You might both be right, there have been other instances where the individual code letter and a partial serial have been recorded in ORB's

The record N2879 "might" represent VY-N P2879

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2 hours ago, Peter Roberts said:

 

It would be great to have a complete listing of Hurricane aircraft and their histories as we have with the Spitfire - does one exist?

Not like there is in Spitfire -the History, or more usefully now, the Spitfire production list online.

@Geoffrey Sinclair has made a list from production records,   which have date taken on charge or delivered, and last known date/SOC.

Air Britain has the Sq listings, which are not always accurate in the case of ME/FE use... or just very vague, as in just FE/ME in some cases.

There are bits in Mason's books. 

 There is probably more, but it's not all been collated...  which is the task.   

 

Again, it's runs into the "not a Spitfire" problem,  as there is the interest to do the Spitfire, but not the Hurricane.    There have been rumours of the "The Book"  but again,  I don't know if there is the market for such a tome.

 

It is my intention to go and have a look at some of the archives,   I was planning a day out to Hendon's library at the end of March 2020...  which obviously didn't happen....

Still keeps me amused,  @rhagger @Peter Roberts @Dave Fleming thanks for the recent input, very helpful.

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P2879, 5 MU 13 May 1940, RAF Tangmere 18 May 1940, 85 Sqn 18 May 1940, 13 MU 30 Aug 1940, 19 MU 8 Sep 1940, 229 Sqn 16 Sep 1940, SOC 24 Sep 1940.

 

Battle of Britain, Then and Now, P2879, 29 Aug 1940, 85 Sqn, badly damaged by Bf109s off Eastbourne 3.45pm but repairable, Sgt. G.B. Booth unhurt.  23 Sep 1940, 229 Sqn, shot down by Bf109s while acting as weaver, over St Mary's Marshes Hoo, 10.50am, Pilot Officer P.O.D. Allcock baled out wounded.

 

When it comes to online Hurricane listings there is the http://www.rafcommands.com/database/serials/ web site but it uses Dr. Colin James Pratt-Hooson's Hurricane Site which has some significant problems, and there looks like plenty of brief or blank entries.  My emails to RAF commands have not been replied to.

 

The information for P2879 comes from the RAF Serial Registers/Delivery Logs, from K1000 to AZ999 the lists are 15 serials to the page, leaving room for notes, plenty of pre war and into 1940/41 unit moves noted but after that the information tends to simply be the loss date and whether SOC or Cat E or other.  From BA100 on there are 100 serials to the page, leaving space for on date, off date (SOC, CAT E etc.) and if sent overseas where and when.  The files are scans of microfilms of hand written documents, they can be hard to read.

 

I have used the files to create a listing for all Hurricanes with Serial, Mark, Maker, on date, off date (SOC, CAT E etc.) and if sent overseas where and when but that is it, yet it seems to be the most detailed Hurricane listing available in electronic form.  And I still have 3 more IIC and 3 less IID than the official totals.

 

If you just want to look at the entries for the serials to AZ999 that is about 2,925 Hawker (including prototype), 2,300 Gloster, 300 Austin, 160 CCF built Hurricanes.

 

There is a new comprehensive Hurricane book promised, but it is taking a while.

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6 hours ago, rhagger said:

85 Sqn ORB for June 1940 lists 'N2879' as it does in July as mentioned, but August's records list 'P2879'.

 

According to the Francis production blocks, by serial, which I presume are accurate, there is no possibility of an N2879, so I suspect this began as a mistaken entry and was copied through out for a period. The other possible alternative could be an incorrectly re-applied serial, which I believe wasn’t unheard of.

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6 hours ago, rhagger said:

85 Sqn ORB for June 1940 lists 'N2879' as it does in July as mentioned, but August's records list 'P2879'.

 

 There is no Hurricane serialed N2879.

 

Block 2, Second Hawker Produced Block

Serial Range N2318 - N2367 (50), N2380 - N2409 (30), N2422 - N2441 (20), N2453 - N2502 (50), N2520 - N2559 (40), N2582 - N2631 (50), N2645 - N2674 (30), N2700 - N2729 (30) - Total 300

from http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/APS.HTM

the serial list is of use, but some of the other information is wrong.

 

But the batch before the P serial were N****,  so if you were used to writing N****

 

Also, ALL N**** serial planes I have seen have a De Havilland propeller,  pole attenna, 5 spoke wheels, and a six inch high serial, also not the high position of the serial.  This was the standard factory style and placement.  Note the width is the same, as is the stroke width.  I have seen L**** serial planes that have been repaired/repainted, and they then get standard 8 inch high serials. Example - L1926

StevensLW-portrait1-opt.jpg

 

"P2879 VY-N"  shows a typical standard P**** serial features of a Rotol prop and triangular antenna. The modified 35 A type roundel ties in with  dates, the yellow ring order was 10 may 1940. 

Sadly we do not have that many photos to work from,  and early P**** series have DH props,  but from P27** they switch to Rotol (apart from tropical Mk.I's)  but from the photos we do have the airframe details do seem consistent.

 

I mention this as these are all factors when looking at a photo, as they are indicative of batches and date.

 

I must remember to DL those ORB's and see what can be gleaned in relation to photos.

 

cheers

T

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 4/17/2022 at 6:33 PM, Peter Roberts said:

 

... there is no possibility of an N2879, so I suspect this began as a mistaken entry and was copied through out for a period.

 

Yes, that serial is a Wellington.  I think you've got the right answer.  It is not unusual to see an error continue consistently through a month (or longer) and then show correctly from the beginning of a new month.  My guess is that either a new record-keeper took over, or perhaps with a new month one of the things on the "to do" list was to check the list of which individual letter was given to which serial.  In other words, I surmise that sometimes the record-keeper would have a list, and when the pilots (or whomever) turned in the list of who was on the day's ops it might just show Burton in 'A', Prang in 'B', etc.  Thus sometimes you'll see a serial merrily continuing to appear on ops after it (pretty certainly) was shot down into the Channel on the 12th!

 

Edit: Also, it is quite common to see prefix errors, and I've seen some ORBs that just list the numerals, so likely the serial might be passed to the record-keeper as numerals only, who then could easily substitute a common and familiar prefix like 'N' for the correct 'P'.  I was reminded of this while looking at a Sqn using Spit Vs, where it applies even with two-letter prefixes.

Edited by gingerbob
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/17/2022 at 10:56 AM, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

 

 

When it comes to online Hurricane listings there is the http://www.rafcommands.com/database/serials/ web site but it uses Dr. Colin James Pratt-Hooson's Hurricane Site which has some significant problems, and there looks like plenty of brief or blank entries.  My emails to RAF commands have not been replied to.

 

 

@Geoffrey Sinclair

 

Geoff.. I am the current webmaster of RafCommands and I built that Serial look up tool. 

 

Was there something you wanted to help correct?. Please do email me [email protected] ..or PM me here..

 

I can confirm that I haven't received any of your previous emails. They must have disappeared into the black hole of the internet.

 

Cheers

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  • 2 months later...
2 hours ago, Johny77712 said:

Hello, such photos are rare these days. This is the preservation of the memory of aviation, the preservation of history. Therefore, such a photo needs restoration visit this page This team works to restore old photos and preserve memories, retouchers are happy to repair your photos online. You can hardly do it yourself, you need professionals. Although you can try using photoshop, but it takes time

The linked advert suggests adding missing parts, adding volumes and changing shapes. I cannot imagine any form of retouching will add anything to this picture. It may create a more aesthetically pleasing picture but is more likely to distort such information as is there rather than enhance it. I would regard it as the same as adding bogus colour to black and white prints. Manipulating the photo in a programme to enhance the serial etc is a good idea but retouching - adding and subtracting visual elements to the picture - isn't.

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