David Womby Posted April 11, 2022 Share Posted April 11, 2022 I've seen pics of Lightnings with no launch rails but the pylons still fitted on each side of the fuselage. I've also seen some where it looks like the pylon is missing but a smaller stub is fitted. Is that right? Also, were the mounting points for the pylons ever fitted with covers that did not protrude beyond the aircraft skin? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 11 hours ago, David Womby said: I've seen pics of Lightnings with no launch rails but the pylons still fitted on each side of the fuselage. I've also seen some where it looks like the pylon is missing but a smaller stub is fitted. Is that right? Also, were the mounting points for the pylons ever fitted with covers that did not protrude beyond the aircraft skin? David The" Rail" arrived at the jet as part of the missile and came back and was removed after firing https://external-preview.redd.it/4ZmMKvw4vHdTNUU_jQCzV2FdJ-97qrTqrGIyBf-Zqbo.jpg?auto=webp&s=1f3576ae9410d5eb0540c8821c8426730e389221 Selwyn 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Womby Posted April 12, 2022 Author Share Posted April 12, 2022 Thanks, Selwyn. I didn't know that. Were the pylons themselves removeable ? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 32 minutes ago, David Womby said: Thanks, Selwyn. I didn't know that. Were the pylons themselves removeable ? David David, I honestly don't know. They would be removable for servicing, but I don't know if they could fly with them removed. I know with the F2A that the "missile pack" could be removed and replaced with a lower gun pack, I assume the stubs were part of this removable missile pack, but the F3 didn't carry guns, and the F6 gun installation was in the front of the belly tank so I assume the missile pylon installation on these aircraft may have been different, probably to allow carriage of the Red Top missile. The integral Red Top Missile rail installation looks different as well . https://www.flickr.com/photos/52287882@N05/10230448266 Selwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Womby Posted April 12, 2022 Author Share Posted April 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, Selwyn said: David, I honestly don't know. They would be removable for servicing, but I don't know if they could fly with them removed. I know with the F2A that the "missile pack" could be removed and replaced with a lower gun pack, I assume the stubs were part of this removable missile pack, but the F3 didn't carry guns, and the F6 gun installation was in the front of the belly tank so I assume the missile pylon installation on these aircraft may have been different, probably to allow carriage of the Red Top missile. The integral Red Top Missile rail installation looks different as well . https://www.flickr.com/photos/52287882@N05/10230448266 Selwyn Thanks again. Looking at that photo with the Red Top, it seems the pylon may have had some sort of fairing fitted over the end when there was no missile rail attached. I'll see if I can find the pic that prompted my original question - I thought I saw an in flight pic with no pylon but a very short stub or fairing in its place. However, I was looking at so many Lightning pics yesterday, I can't recall which prompted the thought 🙄 David 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 7 minutes ago, David Womby said: Thanks again. Looking at that photo with the Red Top, it seems the pylon may have had some sort of fairing fitted over the end when there was no missile rail attached. I'll see if I can find the pic that prompted my original question - I thought I saw an in flight pic with no pylon but a very short stub or fairing in its place. However, I was looking at so many Lightning pics yesterday, I can't recall which prompted the thought 🙄 David Probably an aerodynamic fairing used when missiles were nor carried. look at this link https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/477514-english-electric-lightning-technical-data-and-discussion/ scroll down and there are diagrams of the lightning missile packs. open up the later hidden links for more detail. Selwyn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Womby Posted April 12, 2022 Author Share Posted April 12, 2022 19 minutes ago, Selwyn said: Probably an aerodynamic fairing used when missiles were nor carried. look at this link https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/477514-english-electric-lightning-technical-data-and-discussion/ scroll down and there are diagrams of the lightning missile packs. open up the later hidden links for more detail. Selwyn Thanks for that link. It does mention a fairing for the end of the pylon. Some great reading. I'll be in there for hours now!!!!! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Womby Posted April 12, 2022 Author Share Posted April 12, 2022 Looking at this pic, I wonder if RAF Lightnings ever flew with the unguided rocket pack fitted (armed or not) and so they had no pylons. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Womby Posted April 12, 2022 Author Share Posted April 12, 2022 Here's an example: https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1484171. XM987 with the OCU/65Sqdn. Looking at this pic, she seems to have lower nose guns fitted. David 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 50 minutes ago, David Womby said: Looking at this pic, I wonder if RAF Lightnings ever flew with the unguided rocket pack fitted (armed or not) and so they had no pylons. David I don't going that the RAF ever used the unguided rocket pack but it was part of the test flying programme: Johnny Squier and his observer (I can't remember the poor fellow's name just now) had to bang out from XM967 over the Irish Sea when a high-AoA/ high roll rate test broke the aeroplane (the fin failed). The observer got out quite quickly but Johnny Squier found himself upside down in an uncontrollably spinning jet looking down the outside of the windscreen. Eventually he was able to reach up and pull the seat pan handle and leave the jet. He wound up spending over 24 hours drifting in a leaky dinghy before washing up on the beach, fortunately near to habitation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 @David Womby David I've had a look through my many Lightning photos and the pylons with the fairing are quite common. I suspect it was fitted mostly as a drag reduction aid for ferry flights. As for the pylons they are integral with the missile pack. This is the drawing for the Firestreak, the Red top is the same. John 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Womby Posted April 12, 2022 Author Share Posted April 12, 2022 53 minutes ago, canberra kid said: @David Womby David I've had a look through my many Lightning photos and the pylons with the fairing are quite common. I suspect it was fitted mostly as a drag reduction aid for ferry flights. As for the pylons they are integral with the missile pack. This is the drawing for the Firestreak, the Red top is the same. John Thanks, John. BTW - I found the T4pilot's notes online and it indicates guns can be fitted in lower nose in place of the Firestreak pallet. That must be what I am seeing in some pics where there's no sign pf the pylons. In the pic I linked to above, the guns are clearly installed (lots of soot around muzzle ports) but in others it looks like the gun pallet is fitted (no pylons) but not the guns (no gun ports either!). David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 18 minutes ago, David Womby said: Thanks, John. BTW - I found the T4pilot's notes online and it indicates guns can be fitted in lower nose in place of the Firestreak pallet. That must be what I am seeing in some pics where there's no sign pf the pylons. In the pic I linked to above, the guns are clearly installed (lots of soot around muzzle ports) but in others it looks like the gun pallet is fitted (no pylons) but not the guns (no gun ports either!). David Indeed David, there must have been a 'blank' fairing as I have photos of aircraft with no pylons or guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerotechi Posted April 16, 2022 Share Posted April 16, 2022 Little late but if it helps pics of red top pack pylon and fairing. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Posted April 16, 2022 Share Posted April 16, 2022 On 12/04/2022 at 13:31, stever219 said: I don't going that the RAF ever used the unguided rocket pack but it was part of the test flying programme: Johnny Squier and his observer (I can't remember the poor fellow's name just now) had to bang out from XM967 over the Irish Sea when a high-AoA/ high roll rate test broke the aeroplane (the fin failed). The observer got out quite quickly but Johnny Squier found himself upside down in an uncontrollably spinning jet looking down the outside of the windscreen. Eventually he was able to reach up and pull the seat pan handle and leave the jet. He wound up spending over 24 hours drifting in a leaky dinghy before washing up on the beach, fortunately near to habitation. XM967 was the First T.5 and sadly ended its days on the fire dump at Kemble? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted April 16, 2022 Share Posted April 16, 2022 1 hour ago, Julien said: XM967 was the First T.5 and sadly ended its days on the fire dump at Kemble? My apologies; I appear to have confused two separate incidents and misidentified one of the aircraft concerned. Johnny Squier had to leave XL628, which he was flying solo, and Jimmy Dell and George Ellington had to part company with XM966. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tweeky Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 As Selwin says the pylon is an integral part of the missile pack. The missile pack was removable as a a complete unit (various electrical and Hydrualic conections) and sent to a weapons bay for servicings. The fairing that was fitted when the missiles were removed were called slippers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 Reading the above, there seems to have been a cannon pack as fitted to the T.4 in the link that @David Wombyhas linked to as well as the missile packs & rocket pack. That would have needed a replaceable under nose panel/structure as well. Are there any illustrations of this similar to the other packs out there? I was also interested in the info in the Warthunder link @Selwyn shared, that the F.2A was not fitted with the ventral tank cannons other than for a restored aircraft but were fitted with the cannon packs under the nose which would have precluded missile armament, seemed a bit strange to me. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tweeky Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 (edited) 13 hours ago, stevehnz said: Reading the above, there seems to have been a cannon pack as fitted to the T.4 in the link that @David Wombyhas linked to as well as the missile packs & rocket pack. That would have needed a replaceable under nose panel/structure as well. Are there any illustrations of this similar to the other packs out there? I was also interested in the info in the Warthunder link @Selwyn shared, that the F.2A was not fitted with the ventral tank cannons other than for a restored aircraft but were fitted with the cannon packs under the nose which would have precluded missile armament, seemed a bit strange to me. Steve. T4/5 never had cannons. F2A could have upper and lower cannons, the lower cannons were in a pack that replaced the missile pack. F2A's mission profile was boarder patrol so the ventral was purley fuel Dont think they were wired for the cannon pack. The document with the four (inc a recci pack) different packs on it is for the Export single seat F53 note the bomb on the wing. The RAF never had the rocket packs, the Lightnings role was Air defence/interception never ground attack/recci. Edited April 18, 2022 by tweeky additional info 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 3 minutes ago, tweeky said: T4/5 never had cannons. Looking at the T.4 in the link in @David Womby's post above, it seems to show a T.4 with lower nose cannons, or are we seeing something else? Does the Airfix F.2A have the lower cannons, mine is still boxed & well hidden.? Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tweeky Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 (edited) have a look here scrole down the specs. just ignore the rocket pack as the RAF didnt have it. I've never seen a T4/5 with cannons. The panel you've mentioned is a removable one its not a structural panel. Edited April 18, 2022 by tweeky 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tweeky Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 (edited) Ive coppied the pic youve linked and zoomed in on the weapons pack/ front fuslarge and id say no guns, carnt see any vents to allow the cannon gasses out of the weapons pack or any acces panels to arm,load,unload or remove the guns. Edited April 18, 2022 by tweeky typo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Womby Posted April 18, 2022 Author Share Posted April 18, 2022 47 minutes ago, tweeky said: Ive coppied the pic youve linked and zoomed in on the weapons pack/ front fuslarge and id say no guns, carnt see any vents to allow the cannon gasses out of the weapons pack or any acces panels to arm,load,unload or remove the guns. Odd then that the T4 Pilot's Notes say this: David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tweeky Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 On 4/12/2022 at 11:08 AM, Selwyn said: The integral Red Top Missile rail installation looks different as well . The rear fairing of the Firestreak missile Rail/Launcher contained a cooling bottle, this bottle contained liquid Ammonia. The rear fairing was something that was fitted during morning servicing and removed before the Jets went away for the night. When live arming the aircraft the missiles were delivered without the Ammonia bottle fairing thid was fitted once the missile was fitted. During day to day ops it wasn't uncommon to have a jet come back with an Ammonia leak, boy the smell was overpowering, breathing apparatus was needed to remove the leaking bottle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tweeky Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 same dark panel but no guns. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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