LDM 1:48 Mew Gull, Christen Eagle, ASK13 (white metal)

[Farmer matt]

SCHLEICHER ASK 13   LDM 1:48 white metal kit

LDM8 by Matt Farmer, on Flickr

The ASK 13 two-seat glider was first flown in1966, and became a familiar sight at gliding clubs across Europe. Gliders were not included on the UK civil register until 2003, long after this kit was released. They were previously allocated three-letter codes by the British Gliding Association, who also alloted three-digit competion numbers where required. On joining the full register, many craft received G-Cxxx registrations, but that was a product of timing rather than an alloted sequence. No decals are included in this kit, and I do feel that a selection of suitably sized  letters and numerals would have been welcome, if only to save ferreting in the spares box.

This kit is very different from the Christen Eagle just documented, not least in the sheer size of the wing parts, each of which probably contains more metal than that entire biplane. It is the joining of those wings which is the absolute key to this build. The first task, however, is much simpler.

The kit is provided with the option of having the airbrakes in the deployed position, above and below each wing. To this end, there are two pin holes in each wing surface that require a tiny dot of filler if you are not fitting the airbrakes, or drilling out slightly if you are, in which case easier done now ready for × later × fitment. The airbrakes themselves would certainly be PE nowadays, and look a little clunky so were consigned to the parts bin. There is also not really any way to represent their vacated housings if you did have them deployed.

This highlights an area in which metal kits may score poorly with some of you. Unless a surface has been specifically moulded to be in the 'open' state, ie with a recess or hole already in situ, it is not practical to create the opened up weapons bays, cowlings and inspection hatches etc. that enhance your builds.

Another task that needs to be addressed before construction is to drill a hole for a stand, again clearly marked in the lower fuselage but this time requiring you to drill through the undercarriage gondola too.-this will need fitting now if you want this feature. The instructions seem rather pessimistic about the whole idea, so I opted not to pursue the matter.

An initial check of the individual wings against the fuselage parts, and each other, seemed encouraging. However,..........

 

[greggles.w]

There is so much going on here in these forums, one can miss some real gems, sorry to be a late attendee Mr Farmer!

 

Very glad to see you’ve outsmarted your collie & got the IT up & running.  Well done.  And well done too on the rapid progress with the kits.

 

Very pleased to hear you have scanned those Eagle decals.  I’ve a few older kits sans decals, & I’d be most pleased to find a scanned copy was held by someone somewhere .. (who knows, maybe one day I’ll discover an Eagle of my own!)

 

I’m enjoying the context of the kit design, fabrication & production thank you.  Craftsmanship.  It reminds me of my own profession - architect - which I entered just on the threshold of arrival of CAD.  I caught just enough of an introduction to the hand-based ‘skills’ of crafting an output .. saw some of it in action in my first office experience, where there was one or two computers in an office of 30.  Now those skills a curiosity only.

 

Speaking of hands-on … I’ve been summoned to the Lego table with my son, must go!  More soon (incl some pics of my other LDM kit in box as per your request..)

[Farmer matt]

Thankyou Greggles, welcome aboard.

 

It is unfortunate that whilst computers have enabled people to create so much, there is now a complete disconnect with the object created. There is no understanding of how the result would have been physically acheived, nor in most cases is there a desire for that understanding. Lost is the satisfaction of making something, and then next time making something (hopefully) better because you have learnt from the process.

 

Please do post the Caudron, (and then you must build it!)

 

Regards, Matt

[Farmer matt]

SCHLEICHER ASK13  continued

EDIT additional photo

 

askwingjoin by Matt Farmer, on Flickr

Original master

 

The wing to wing join is acheived by a set of substantial interlocking forks, which locate in troughs in the opposing roots, forming a spar around which the fuselage is constructed. A single peg on the underside of the starboard piece × only × should locate in a corresponding hole in the lower fuselage. A dry fit of the two wings together promised good alignment and a secure join.

The fun started when the fuselage pieces were introduced to the newly created centre-section. It was immediately obvious that the wings, although nicely aligned , were far too far apart.

Additionally, the peg was seeming to play all kinds of havoc and trying to skew everything. At this point, it would have been tempting to remove the peg and resign to filling chasms at either root, but since I had previously established that the individual wing/ fuselage relationships were good, further diagnosis was required.

The problem lay in the inner faces of the troughs, which were dished with overcast. So, with a combination of reaming them out a bit and and removing material from the corresponding edges of the forks, the wings were gradually moved closer together until there would be no gap to the fuselage.

Note that the forks are not actually too long or wide, and nor do the troughs need enlarging, just cleaning out.

Once satisfied with the span of the spar, the wing could finally be glued, and application was quite liberal to be on the safe side. Then the structure was left supported to maintain the dihedral and not touched for a day.

After the above work, the lower fuselage was attached without drama, soon followed by the upper part to complete the sandwich. Alignment of the fuselage halves is foolproof, with tabs behind the wing, a peg at the tail and a raised keel in the lower part so really no excuses.

The upper fuselage casting includes the horizontal tail surfaces, so after assembling just four parts we have most of a glider, which can now be cleaned up and given a shot of primer. The only real filler needed was on the underside of the wings where the spar troughs were still visible.

EDIT photo of original master

askmaster by Matt Farmer, on Flickr

 

 

According to the instructions, the nose cowl has a 'deliberate mis-match of contours'  but in any case was the one piece I really could not persuade to fit properly. In the end I just got it looking as best possible and applied filler to hide my blushes.

 

Next up we will be flying inverted, and the ASK can be looped, so hold tight.

 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2022 by Farmer matt
Add photos

[Farmer matt]

SCHLEICHER ASK 13    continued

 

The undercarriage consists of a single main wheel, a long forward skid, and a tail skid. The wheel is cast into its gondola, which is positioned easily enough but needed packing to keep it straight whilst drying as it wanted to slew. The front skid is by its nature a long thin part, and may need massaging to acheive the correct contour. Location is by front peg, centre strut, and then the rear sits in a slot in the front of the gondola. The tail skid can either be attached now or later.

 

The last part of the airframe to attach is the fin/rudder which has a pin to the fuselage and then overhangs the rear so needs supporting in alignment until set.

 

Finally for now, the cockpit interior, which does not need to be inserted yet. You get a floor, rear instrument panel (the front one is cast into the cowl), two control columns, and two empty seats. Or, if you use Johnny pilot he again comes grasping the controls and is ready moulded in his seat. He sits in the front, and it would have been nice to have the option  of a passenger/instructor for the rear, but perhaps its Johnny's first solo. 

The airbrake control bar is provided , cast on a stretcher, but I managed to break it on removal. Luckily I had a unique opportunity, and used the brass master in its stead. So now a tiny piece of the original is incorporated in my build, which is quite cool I think. 

One apparent omission is a bulkhead behind the passenger's head, so I pushed some putty into the void and sanded it smooth.

cockpitframe by Matt Farmer, on Flickr

The instructions provide a diagram of the cockpit framing to replicate in wire. Before anyone was watching, my instincts were to not bother and simply paint matt black everywhere, but now I might have to give it a go.

Whilst I am continually in awe of some of the interior work presented on this forum, and my eyes coo over lots of lovely PE and detailing, sadly it is the thumb twins who are in charge of construction.

EDIT    The thumb twins have now had a go at this. The instructions call out 0.8mm for the ftamework, my first try was with 0.75, way too tight to get the seats in. Now tried with 0.5mm, and still really too snug, even with filing Johnny's elbow down. Its one of those cases where not much can be seen if you do do it, but its obvious if you do nothing.

askframe by Matt Farmer, on Flickr

To be resolved.

 

This brings the ASK 13 to its present state. As with the Christen Eagle, there is still a way to go, but the main build is done.

 

And so, after rather more than my proposed initial three posts,(sorry!), I now have to actually get on with finishing the models. I even bought a nice new tin of Ford Diamond white today, so my spray finger is getting twitchy.

 

I would like to thank you all for your support so far, and I hope that you will be encouraged to try a white metal build for yourselves. In particular if you have an LDM kit in the stash, please do build it. (Unless its a TSR2, in which case please do sell it to me!)

 

Matt.

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Farmer matt
Update

[Farmer matt]

CEtail by Matt Farmer, on Flickr

 

Now at last this may begin to resemble a 'normal' WIP, as work has actually progressed.

The Christen Eagle had her tail feathers braced this morning. Each surface does have dimples to aid positioning of the wires, but inevitably with glue at both ends of a short wire, eight times, it was at times a frustrating process. The carpet  monster wasn't too hungry luckily, but a few smears will need a clean up on the stabilisors. Providing the wires now stay in situ, I am not too upset by the result. Also I got the predicted fourth go at the aerial as a bonus.

 

[Fastcat]

Hi Matt,

         Try positioning the glue where the brace is going to go, rather than on the ends of the brace. Needs a steady hand but it works well once you're used to it. Use a bit of sharpened cocktail stick or wire to locate the glue in the first place.

 

Dave

[Farmer matt]

Thanks Dave, that sounds like a better plan! Should stop any attachment to the thumbs too.

Matt

[Farmer matt]

ask3 by Matt Farmer, on Flickr

You may notice that this is not Ford Diamond white! This is Ford Sunburst Red. Lovely. And if that name has put a thought in your head, I'm way ahead of you. I feel a masking session heading this way.

 

Meanwhile, attending to the tail of the Christen Eagle threw up a bit of a snagging list so she is pending for a bit. Nothing major, the only glaring oversight was not filling the undersides of the lower wings where the strut locating holes were fully through. Don't worry she will be white soon.

 

For those of you not used to car sprays, every colour has its own little quirks and foibles in application and drying behaviours, but reds are generally just pleasant to use.

For the most part as long as its warm, reds are happy, so they are a good way to introduce yourself to the basics of simply applying the paint if you havent done so before.

 

Matt.

[Fastcat]

Hi Matt,

                 While I agree that car spray reds are lovely, if you're thinking of doing a sunburst scheme it's maybe easier to spray the lighter colour (ie white) first in order to stop any bleed through of the red later. That's true for most of the darker colours. The red is quite hard to hide beneath the white.

Incidentally, although I was taught to use Ford Diamond White for the white colour on car models, it's not actually a true white although it looks white enough, particularly when it's next to a strong colour.

It's actually got a slight greenish tint but our eyes trick us into thinking it's pure white. Halford's Appliance White is nearer but it used to be grainier and coarser, although I don't know if that's currently the case because paint formulas change over time and I first started using car sprays over 30 years back. 

 

Dave

[Farmer matt]

Hi Dave, 

That is why I don't use Appliance Gloss white, its too white, whereas like you say Diamond looks better in our sizes.

I get what you are saying about doing the light first, but there are a few factors at play. If I screw up the masking, it will be easier to touch up the red, and also I will give a light primer coat before the white, so it shouln't pink. 

I looked at the Dutch airframe which turns up on the web, and partly the call was made on balance of what was to be masked or left either way (white first or red first).

Thankyou for the input though, it is appreciated.

I'm going to leave well alone now for a few days before I start masking anyway, so the CE can get some attention.

 

Matt.

[Fastcat]

Hi Matt,

                It's swings and roundabouts, isn't it, but ultimately it comes down to what works for you. I know someone who only ever uses matt paints through an airbrush. To get a gloss finish he just uses a gloss clear topcoat - something I've never even considered and yet he gets a lovely result that I'd be proud of. He's developed a technique and made it work for him which is all that matters.

These are interesting kits - keep up the good work!

 

Dave

[Farmer matt]

Twenty years ago, you would now be admiring a lovely stripey glider, but once I had started masking, I realised that this is not twenty years ago and I am no longer invincible. I set up a maypole in the cockpit as a datum and started dancing, but the executive decision to walk away was soon made.

Unfotunately, I then chose to walk straight into the elephant which has been lurking in the room for this entire build. Ouch! -no not you Mrs F, I wouldnt dare even think that. I mean the vacform canopy, which incidentally is wrapped in some very 1980s toilet tissue.

'We can supply a replacement if you send us 3x1st class stamps' say the instructions, but it might have been wiser to include a spare. Whats worse is I know there is probably a couple of hundred of the things in a landfill site not too far from here, but hey, then there was a house to clear not a model to build.

On the positive side the canopy is pretty clear, on the negative side, I made a bit of a pigs ear of cutting it out. I filled it with tac, masked the lines, scribed the lines, couldn't really see what I was doing, and more by luck than judgement arrived at this.

askcanopy by Matt Farmer, on Flickr

This is the good side. I am thinking by the time I have run a tape frame round the edge I might have got away with it. If not it will have to be posed open. We will see.

 

In the meantime, I have rubbed the red back with some 1200 grit, pending a decision on whether to simply go lovely red all over, or have white wings. But no sunburst.

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Farmer matt
Spellinb

[Malc2]

1 hour ago, Farmer matt said:

Whats worse is I know there is probably a couple of hundred of the things in a landfill site not too far from here.

This made me chuckle. Oh to have the space to keep everything! Do you know what your Dad used as a mould for the canopies? Or was it outsourced to another company?

 

I am not sure what you plan to use for masking tape, but I can't recommend Tamiya masking tape highly enough.

I used all sorts before and thought all masking tape was similar(!), but having tried Tamiya a few years ago, I now use it exclusively.

I have just also discovered the white stretchy tape Tamiya do for curves, its also great.

Best tip for removal I was given is to pull it 180deg back on its self, it lowers the risk of pulling up the paint its stuck to.

Also immediately before spraying, run round (press down) the edges with a blunt cocktail stick, helps prevent paint bleed.

 

Sorry if its Grandma and eggs and all that, but better to say and not need than never know!

 

Malc.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Malc2

[Farmer matt]

Hi Malc, 

Yes, Tamiya tape is the only way to go, it wasn' t the tape that was at fault, it was the eyes trying to see where to lay it!

The canopies were mastered as a plastic padding buck if I remember, but production was outsourced.

When I cleared the house, there were boxes in the loft unopened from the previous house 20 + years earlier. I confess to have worked on a bit of a scorched earth  policy, as I have quite enough stuff of my own. If we kept everything , we would still never be able to find it anyway!

 

Matt

 

 

[Malc2]

No problem.

I have to admit, making canopies is one of the bits of modelling I really enjoy doing.

I usually plunge mould, but last year I made an A4 size vacform box and was surprised how well it worked. 2 weeks prep and 20 seconds to make the canopy!

On another note, I noticed last year I was modelling by brail, (I already wear glasses for long distance) I found the glasses rack at poundland by chance and have never looked back (pun not intended).

For a quid you can't go wrong! They are available in 0.5 diopter increments.

 

Malc.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Malc2

[Farmer matt]

Hi Malc,

Interesting you can do your own vacforms. Serious question, is there a way you can make the buck so that when you come to cut the finished part it is Farmer proof, or at least idiot proof? That must cause issues for others too.

Creating a frame took most of this afternoon and some bad language, and actually makes the fit look worse. 

Not quite shelf of doom time yet, but would have been nice to have kept the snafus at bay a bit longer, or at least not  on such an obvious part.

Matt.

[Malc2]

Hi Matt,

Once the buck is made and the part moulded over it, its easy to cut round the edge of the part, I keep the buck inside the moulding until the part is cut out to support the canopy.

Once made, the eges of the buck needs to have about 1/8 inch added, this means that all traces of the corner of the moulding that wraps round the buck is cut away.  I draw the cut line on the buck before cutting.

Here is the plug and canopy for a Ta152, the plug is Chemical wood (Ureol). You can see the cut line I have drawn on the plug (and the screen frame line as a painting guide).

This was a scrap canopy, the final one was better.

 

Malc.

 

[Farmer matt]

So we were flying along nicely, and were just coming within sight of our destination when the gremlins came out to play. 

I don't think we need to declare a Mayday just yet, but a few checklists are going to need running through.

So while I try and salvage something presentable from the ASK canopy, the CE has been snagged and may get some paint this week if the wind dies down. And I am not forgetting I will soon have to address that canopy too.

Meanwhile a huge thanks to Malc2 for the poundland glasses suggestion, except now I can see that instead of painting Johnny pilot, I had just randomly daubed in his general direction. Not that my figure painting has ever been much better than that to be honest.

Hopefully back on course soon.

Matt.

[Farmer matt]

ceprimer by Matt Farmer, on Flickr

Ok, so I'm calling this ready for paint now. I'm not over happy with the centre strut but it will have to do, better than it was anyway. You will see that I have cut the prop blades, I am pleased with how that looks, and Johnny is having a quick test flight. 

Shaking of white rattle can commences..

[k5054nz]

I'm late to the party but it's so wonderful to have you here Matt! I've lusted after the Pitts S1 and Pou du Ciel for many years, and it's fascinating to hear so much about the man behind the brand as well as the various processes and indeed other projects. A Jodel tickles my fancy too!

 

I'm glad you figured out photo posting and I'm excited to see your next update.

[ianwau]

Also just discovered the thread Matt! Enjoying the history lesson, and watching the progress you're making and the constructive input coming through.

 

Wish I'd picked up a few in this LDM range when they were available. I too have an interest in gliders and gliding (my father used to fly them for ~50 years and much of my childhood at airfields).

 

Re the canopy - I too have done a fair bit of home vacforming.  A sample below of the very agricultural vacform machine - a modified used kitchen container - there's a hole in the back which takes the vacuum cleaner nozzle. And 2 x frames of plywood between which is sandwiched the moulding medium.  A few more pix in this Flickr album (https://flickr.com/photos/164110839@N02/albums/72157713836765783

The buck was made from a skeleton of styrene, backfilled with car bog. 

 

 

On 5/8/2022 at 5:53 AM, Farmer matt said:

is there a way you can make the buck so that when you come to cut the finished part it is Farmer proof

Agree with @Malc2 comments. At the end of the day - you're still going to have to cut it though.   You can buy a cheap 12v rotary engraver from the hardware store which comes with ~491 useless attachments (and 9 good ones).  The essential attachment is a fine cutting wheel (about 3/4" or 20mm diameter). Which gives you a clean and relatively straight cut. I've found the power tools a whole lot more forgiving than a sharp scalpel (which usually goes skating across the canopy at an inopportune moment). Clean up with a sanding stick.

 

 

 

[Farmer matt]

Welcome aboard Zac and Ianwau, 

Unfortunately you are just in time for the awkward snafu stages, but we are still airborne!

Home vac forming seems like it could be a thing, and at least you get a second chance by just making another. On the subject of which, the CEs canopy seems to have done a disappearing act so I might have to start learning fast. It was there, a bit yellowed unlike the ASK one, and wrapped in the same tissue, but now...?

Matt

[greggles.w]

On 5/12/2022 at 7:03 PM, Farmer matt said:

so I'm calling this ready for paint now.

Looks GRReat!

 

On 5/12/2022 at 7:03 PM, Farmer matt said:

I'm not over happy with the centre strut but it will have to do,

.. again, looks good to me from this angle.  It’s such an elaborate, fantastical arrangement, one of the distinguishing features of the Eagle.  Credit to you for the outcome, & your dad for the master!

 

On 5/12/2022 at 7:03 PM, Farmer matt said:

You will see that I have cut the prop blades, I am pleased with how that looks,

ooh yes, that does make it all dynamic, not that I’m an impartial judge .. 😉 

[greggles.w]

@Malc2, @ianwau  .. an added bonus finding your tips re vac canopies here, thank you!

 

I too have a homemade contraption, this time fashioned from an old stereo speaker box ..

 

 

It’s a while now since I used it. The device worked fine, I recall the bigger challenge was my oven technique: element selection, rack level, temp, seasoning etc ..

 

While I have had some success with it - eventually - I have not yet used it for a canopy.  I’m planning to do so soon for my Auster build.  Can I bother you with a query?

 

I’m wondering, to achieve a smooth, limited distortion (is this what they call optically clear?) transparency, do you apply any extra finish to the buck? Do you seal-coat & polish or something similar? Or just very fine sand only ..?