Canberra questions.

[aerotechi]

Just about to start the airfix 1:48 Canberra as WT309 raspberry ripple. And have a few questions. 

1- As A&AEE Boscombe would she have any bomb bay load? (Read she was ground test but have also seen her flying with Boscombe down on the fuse)

 

2- Would all normal stencils be omitted with the raspberry ripple scheme? Airfix instructions just have lift end trestle points which mostly aren’t even annotated on the instructions and some emergency cut here, ejector seat, ground power.

 

3- Would she fly with a full crew of 4 or just pilot?

 

Probably questions for @canberra kid but all input gratefully received from any other fonts of knowledge. 
 

[Giorgio N]

I can only add something on point 2, having looked at several Canberras in this scheme for a potential future project. Aircraft in Raspberry Ripple tend to have all the standard stencils applied in different colours depending on the surfaces: white on the blue and red areas and black on the white ones. And most Canberras showed plenty of stencils, something that has delayed my project since I'm trying to find ways to reproduce all the quite noticeable white stencils.

WT309 however seems to have carried relatively little in terms of stencilling, with several on the front fuselage while almost nothing under the wings. I would suggest studying pictures of this aircraft, of which there are plenty to be found on the web, from these you can see which ones were carried and which ones were not

[canberra kid]

20 hours ago, aerotechi said:

Just about to start the airfix 1:48 Canberra as WT309 raspberry ripple. And have a few questions. 

1- As A&AEE Boscombe would she have any bomb bay load? (Read she was ground test but have also seen her flying with Boscombe down on the fuse)

 

2- Would all normal stencils be omitted with the raspberry ripple scheme? Airfix instructions just have lift end trestle points which mostly aren’t even annotated on the instructions and some emergency cut here, ejector seat, ground power.

 

3- Would she fly with a full crew of 4 or just pilot?

 

Probably questions for @canberra kid but all input gratefully received from any other fonts of knowledge. 
 

Hi @aerotechi

As @Giorgio N said the later R&D Canberra fleet did tend to have all the usual stencils, modified to fit in with the locale colour. To get a feel for them take a look at my album off WT333 here Canberra WT333. 

As for weapon load, It's posable she could have used the bomb bay, though I have no photo evidence to confirm this, the photos I have of of WT309 show her with under wing pylons and wing tip camera's which would suggest they were wing mounted such as the AS.30, but I know she was involved in the Stingray torpedo trials, this may have been loaded in the bomb bay? 

The standard Canberra crew is 3, this varies with Mk. the PR Canberra's and B(I)8's had two, the only Canberra with a crew of 4 was the T.11. The crew on WT309 would be pilot, navigator and test observer. As far as I can tell from what was left of her cockpit on the fire dump she was still very much a B(I)6 with the Nav on the left and the observer on the right. With the other B.6 Hybrids such as WT333 the situation was reversed with the Nav and his boxes of tricks in the right hand seat and the scientist/test observer in the left hand seat.  One thing of note, in at some point in the 80's many but not all the R&D Canberra received a new plastic main instrument panel, this was painted a medium grey. from memory WT309 like WT333 did not. I hope this helps? If you have any more questions just ask.

 

John     

[aerotechi]

Thanks John and Giorgio. Was just the info I was looking for. Have been studying different pics with 3 instruction a3 sheets ticking off what I can find on pics. 
Based on what I’ve seen I might go for a pylon and scratch build some camera pods. As mentioned above the wings seem lacking from pictures of many markings. 
I only have one other question so far:- flap internal colour - Silver or white/light grey? I’ve from pics come to the conclusion gear bays are silver. 

Thanks for your wealth of knowledge John. 

[canberra kid]

56 minutes ago, aerotechi said:

Thanks John and Giorgio. Was just the info I was looking for. Have been studying different pics with 3 instruction a3 sheets ticking off what I can find on pics. 
Based on what I’ve seen I might go for a pylon and scratch build some camera pods. As mentioned above the wings seem lacking from pictures of many markings. 
I only have one other question so far:- flap internal colour - Silver or white/light grey? I’ve from pics come to the conclusion gear bays are silver. 

Thanks for your wealth of knowledge John. 

No problem, always glad to help with a Canberra build! The wheel wells and doors appear to be aluminium, the flaps would be the same. The nose wheel and main wheel hubs are aluminium too. I stand corrected regarding the main instrument panel, WT309 did have a grey plastic panel including the engine instrument section. It is possible, though I've not seen photographic evidence that in line with other R&D Canberra's the paint may have been removed from the upper wing main spar cap, this would give a dull silver line along the top of the wing. Any more questions just ask.

 

John  

[aerotechi]

Me again with more questions! 
You may regret saying always happy to help John 😬

Cockpit is nearly complete but can’t get pilot seat to look right. Looks like my bloke either has very short legs or the seat is too jacked up. Does the seat sit on a step or move up so high? Had a look at our b2 and it looks and is locked flat to the floor. 
And just a pic of a grey instrument panel I’m assuming I’ve done the right panels in grey?

On 4/7/2022 at 7:22 PM, canberra kid said:

WT309 did have a grey plastic panel including the engine instrument section

 

[canberra kid]

The instrument panel looks fine! The seat should be lower down, the raised part is the where the seat rail should be, so if there is room it should be fixed to the floor in front of the raised bit. You could also do with trimming some of the seat back pad down so it fits against the back of the seat. I hope that makes sense?  

 

John

[aerotechi]

Well with lots of tinkering I think the cockpit is just bad, gap between floor and instrument panel looks too big, seat too high. And measured the bloke. He’s only 5ft with short legs and long arms 🤣🤣

 

edit: if you put the seat lower so he can reach the pedals he can’t see over the instrument panel to the outside. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by aerotechi

[Giorgio N]

I rarely have problems with scale pilots as I very rarely use them in my models, but this is one area where it would be nice to see them moulded together with the seat, would make fitting them more realistic. Of course I understand not all companies would be willing to go through the hassle but it would be nice (and some do it, like the 1/72 Zvezda "easy" kits)

[aerotechi]

1 hour ago, Giorgio N said:

I rarely have problems with scale pilots as I very rarely use them in my models, but this is one area where it would be nice to see them moulded together with the seat, would make fitting them more realistic. Of course I understand not all companies would be willing to go through the hassle but it would be nice (and some do it, like the 1/72 Zvezda "easy" kits)

I normally don’t use 1:72 unless I need to hide something. But I’ve never had one so silly and Ill placed looking. 

[canberra kid]

3 hours ago, aerotechi said:

Well with lots of tinkering I think the cockpit is just bad, gap between floor and instrument panel looks too big, seat too high. And measured the bloke. He’s only 5ft with short legs and long arms 🤣🤣

 

edit: if you put the seat lower so he can reach the pedals he can’t see over the instrument panel to the outside. 

Five foot is a bit wee, more like a fighter Jockey. Though to be fair perhaps Airfix were thinking of the pilots safety, as the following extract from the Canberra pilots notes illustrates, being short in the leg is definite advantage! 

  

If you add the seat rail to the top of that small platform and mount the seat on that it would move it closer to the rudder pedals. The crew for the old 1/72 Airfix B.(I)6 had their legs chopped from the mid shin!

 

John

Edited April 12, 2022 by canberra kid
missing a word

[aerotechi]

17 minutes ago, canberra kid said:

being short in the leg is definite advantage

He’s certainly that. 
 

 

17 minutes ago, canberra kid said:

If you add the seat rail to the top of that small platform and mount the seat on that it would move it closer to the rudder pedals. The crew for the old 1/72 Airfix B.(I)6 had their legs chopped from the mid shin!

That small platform is where it’s supposed to be mounted according to the instructions. That’s where I held it for the pic. I’ve tinkered with how the seat is held to the rail levelled the seat with the throttle console and he’s still miles high. Any lower and he can’t see out. Measured the floor and looked at as many pics I can find of the floor makes me think the pilot step is too low. (Roughly 8” tall) 

I’ve even taken to warming him up in a flame to straighten his back etc 😂🥵

[canberra kid]

I've not studied it in depth but I suspect the geometry of the cockpit is a bit off, there are a few things I've dome to help with the issues, one key feature missing from all Canberra kits even the more accurate Classic Airframes  Canberra, is the cross member to which the pilots seat rail is attached, the seat rail and cross member form the foundation for the Navigators instrument racks. 

 

This is for my B.6 hybrid, WT333

John 

[aerotechi]

1 hour ago, canberra kid said:

geometry of the cockpit is a bit of

Your seat does seem more upright. 
I do really appreciate all your help with this John. 

Im leaning towards undersized bloke. Both 1/48 scale. Ground crew is from my lightning about 5’9 

Edited April 12, 2022 by aerotechi
Added pic of blokes

[Dave Swindell]

15 hours ago, canberra kid said:

the following extract from the Canberra pilots notes illustrates, being short in the leg is definite advantage! 

Was that an English Electric design feature John? David Gunson in his after dinner speech had a dig at short pilots being ex lightning drivers who'd banged out - "the dashboard trims the legs off at the knees, stings when you do it but doesn't hurt as much as staying with it!"

[Selwyn]

Don't know if this helps, but ejection seats are attached to the aircraft bulkhead via the ejection gun/rail assembly, not on the floor. When the pilot raises or lowers the seat the headbox/rail does not move, its fixed.  The seat pan (the bit he sits on) is the bit that moves, so you can see differing size gaps between the headbox and seat pan on photographs depending on the hight the pilot has set the seat. Early seats had a handle to adjust this height (looked a bit like a big handbrake on the side of the seat) later aircraft use an electric motorised system. 

 

Selwyn