617 Dambuster film accuracy

[One 48]

Just watched this again, and it stills looks fresh IMHO, as always some inaccuracy, the bouncing bomb, the upkeep bomb was a cylinder with no curves, no bulging in the middle as the film shows, but it was still all top secret stuff when film was made I think?

The spotlight thing I thought was very clever to converge height, 60 feet as I recall for the final run up to the dams, just learned that the spotlights were shown to side of the aircraft and not directly below and thus easier to see their convergence on the water.

The simple but effective time to drop was that Y shaped thing the bomb aimer used held in his hand, when dam towers converged, it was the time to drop, how true was that? its so simple and effective it has to be true, occams razor and all that.

The aircraft used in the film though, they have to be actual aircraft used in the raid, or very modified other version surviving Lancaster's, just for this film, no CGI back then

Goes without saying, please no comments on the effect or non effectiveness of the actual raids, we all know about that, my questions are really about the equipment of the day and how it reflects in the film.

Wasn't Peter Jackson going to be doing a Dambuster reboot? I wonder what happened to that?

For those who have not watched this film for a while, like me, make time for it soon, it really stands up well to this day.

[Coors54]

I agree, the only jarring thing for me is the explosion effects, a tad crude but then this was the mid fifties.

 

Back in 2002 I was tasked to do some research for a prospective film to be made by Channel 4 to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the raid the following year and I was lucky enough to be able to review the Barnes Wallis files held at Imperial College, they even had receipts from him claiming meals and pipe tobacco I seem to remember. Fascinating stuff and yes, the hand held bomb sight was a thing, but apparently the spotlight idea didn't come from a stage show though - shame.

 

The film did get made - in the US using a converted DC-4 I seem to remember, our plan was to use a Shackleton - much more interesting and we had one "out the back" but ultimately far too expensive.

 

Dave

[RobL]

1 hour ago, Coors54 said:

I agree, the only jarring thing for me is the explosion effects, a tad crude but then this was the mid fifties.

 

Back in 2002 I was tasked to do some research for a prospective film to be made by Channel 4 to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the raid the following year and I was lucky enough to be able to review the Barnes Wallis files held at Imperial College, they even had receipts from him claiming meals and pipe tobacco I seem to remember. Fascinating stuff and yes, the hand held bomb sight was a thing, but apparently the spotlight idea didn't come from a stage show though - shame.

 

The film did get made - in the US using a converted DC-4 I seem to remember, our plan was to use a Shackleton - much more interesting and we had one "out the back" but ultimately far too expensive.

 

Dave

 

 

If that's the same film it took them 9 years after your research task to get the film out, and was titled Dambusters: Building the Bouncing Bomb and "starred" Professor Hugh Hunt (then only a Dr).  He's done several documentaries for Channel 4 along the lines of that one.

 

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1906354/

 

 

Having watched several Channel 4, Channel 5, and BBC documentaries about the "Dambusters raid" and Guy Gibson, several of which talk about the film, I have something in the back of my mind thinking that several of those documentaries call the film quite fictional, or perhaps overly dramatised is a better term, and that a lot of the film was lifted from Gibson's own over egged memoirs, and thus shouldn't be "relied on" as an account of Operation Chastise or the preceding events.  Couldn't tell you which documentaries I would have got that impression from, there's been one in recent years with Dan Snow presenting it though.

 

It is a good movie though.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by RobL

[Paul J]

Some years back(quite a lot of them) while in the ATC, we had an evening with the great Sir Barnes Wallis who gave us all a talk and showed films of his work right up to his ideas of swing wing aircraft.   Many of  us, after the talk and films

, were  able to chat to him and I managed to get his signature in my old paperback copy of The Dam Busters . Conveniently he signed the page with his photograph. I still have that book and cherish it!

[Don149]

The spotlights for the height over the water were thought up by the boffins at Farnborough . I remember reading some time ago

that given a pattern to work from the bomb aimers , or airbombers as they were also called , made their own . The ones depicted

in the film were accurate .

                                        Don .

[Pete in Lincs]

This documentary should answer some of your questions.

 

Some of the ground scenes were filmed here at RAF Hemswell, which is why the final scene, where 'Gibson' walks away, doesn't match the layout at Scampton.

In one scene of the film, a Lincoln can be seen in the background. 

[Paul J]

That's interesting about  Hemswell. In 1969 my second ATC camp was at Scampton but we were  billeted up the road at Hemswell.

.

[One 48]

1 hour ago, Pete in Lincs said:

This documentary should answer some of your questions.

 

Some of the ground scenes were filmed here at RAF Hemswell, which is why the final scene, where 'Gibson' walks away, doesn't match the layout at Scampton.

In one scene of the film, a Lincoln can be seen in the background. 

Thanks Pete, just back from watching that in its entitrety, many questions answered now, thanks

[JohnT]

On the subject of the bombsight I read somewhere that some bombaimers used chinagraph markings on the Perspex and a measured piece  of string to triangulate the home made sight. I never understood how that might work on a night raid though. 
 

The movie was typical of it’s time and a pretty good film for the 1950’s particularly given the bomb casing and workings were classified and not available so the film makers had to do a best guess construction 

Edited April 1, 2022 by JohnT
Spelling and autocorrect corrections thereto

[Ruskin Air Services]

Some of the bombaimers took to marking the perspex dome their compartments with a Chinagraph pencil or a borrowed lipstick, some also used lengths of string across the aperture. 

[Jo NZ]

The original film was made at MGM studios, Borehamwood (Elstree). Model Lancasters ran down a wire to drop their bombs into a water tank. I'm told that this rig was right beside Elstree Way, so easy to see.

Peter Jackson, AFAIK, won't make the movie if the name of the dog is changed...

[malpaso]

13 hours ago, Black Knight said:

afair the details of Operation Chastise was only de-classified about 1978

The details about the mine were not de-classified until the late 1990s

Normally records are de-classified after about 30 years but in this case [and some other cases] the Gov extended the classification of the details

There were still working Lancasters in 1955 and afair a couple were borrowed from the French Maritime Air Force and a couple were borrowed from the Canadians. For the cockpit shots an old Mk.VII or a Lincoln on a RAF fire dump was pulled out and scaffold put up around it. Only the fuselage, no wings or engines. 

and afair, reading a statement by Peter Jackson, he stopped his remake as he reckoned although the remake would be accurate, 'you just can't remake a classic'

Secrets when the film was made, but not for much longer.  Comments about French planes are incorrect.  There are plenty of photos on the web of filming showing the real planes.

Details of the Mine are included in Bruce Robertsons book about the Lancaster of early 1960s.  Revell UK model of 1964 is a reasonable facsimile of the mine and its gear for the day, no doubt based on some official information.  Decals in that kit replicate the film codes rather than the real 617 style.

I believe the film mine is a fairly accurate profile of the real mine but with the early casing, removed close to the mission.  Lowered somewhat to emphasize its shape.  Maybe so the historic film could be used more easily (before adding the black blob!).

The four B.Mk.7 Lancasters were serving RAF aircraft, flown by RAF crews of 83 and 97 Squadrons.  Apparently flown far more than the film crew paid for, as although filming might be done on some occasions the RAF crew would report their flight had not been suitable due to light, weather or whatever.  More fun than their day job!

There is a whole book "Filming the Dam Busters" by Jonathan Falconer which details the making, serials of aircraft and subsequent histories - Lancasters all scrapped but the Wellington is at the RAF Museum.

Hope this is of interest

Will

[Bedders]

I hope changing the dog's name doesn't become a block on the new film. The answer surely is to have the dog, but just not give it a name at all. There are plenty of clever ways to script it. I just hope the film gets made.

 

Justin

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello Justin

The dog's name was also a code word for breaching the Möhne dam. I think Stephen Fry changed it into Digger in a script for the mentioned remake. Cheers

Jure

[malpaso]

I’m not sure we’ll ever see a Jackson remake of the Dambusters.  I think it was one of his vanity projects alongside TVAL and WNW.  Fine when flush from Hobbits and Orcs but maybe the gloss has come off Wingnut as far as Hollywood is concerned; his last feature bombed so he’s only done the WW1 and Beatles documentaries since, using older film stocks.  Others in the company may place a more jaundiced eye on his enthusiasms now.

[EwenS]

On 12/04/2022 at 14:35, malpaso said:

I’m not sure we’ll ever see a Jackson remake of the Dambusters.  I think it was one of his vanity projects alongside TVAL and WNW.  Fine when flush from Hobbits and Orcs but maybe the gloss has come off Wingnut as far as Hollywood is concerned; his last feature bombed so he’s only done the WW1 and Beatles documentaries since, using older film stocks.  Others in the company may place a more jaundiced eye on his enthusiasms now.

He might stand more chance if it was rewritten around the USAAF/USN destroying those dams.🤣 Rewriting history? It has never stopped Hollywood before!🤣

[JohnT]

On 12/04/2022 at 12:29, Jure Miljevic said:

Hello Justin

The dog's name was also a code word for breaching the Möhne dam. I think Stephen Fry changed it into Digger in a script for the mentioned remake. Cheers

Jure

Well that would be fewmillion Aussies offended then. 

[Pete in Lincs]

The Dambusters Pub in Scampton village (Been there since the '80's) has a black Labrador. His name is Bomber. 

The pub, BTW, contains a fabulous assortment of memorabilia. Well worth a visit, best to pre - book if you want food!

[spruecutter96]

Unfortunately, the Peter Jackson film appears to have been shelved, possibly permanently. The main issue is, no Hollywood studio would give Jackson $150-200 Million to do the story justice. They wouldn't risk that kind of cash on an "British" story - it's simply not mass appeal enough for them. Tinsel Town has become completely risk-averse in an age where some, big movies need to break the Billion Dollar barrier before they're considered a genuine hit. 

 

I would love Jackson to re-tell the Dambusters' narrative, but it's looking very unlikely now. There was some talk of a TV series last year, but that would have to be backed by one of the major streaming-services. I don't think anyone else could pay the very hefty bill. 

 

Having said all that, they've been filming the TV series "Masters of the Air" in the UK recently, at a rumoured cost of $200 Million for eight, one-hour episodes. But, it's an American story, of course...

 

Cheers. 

 

Chris.  

[Whitewolf]

Its a shame the Lancs used in the movie were all late versions with the twin .50 cal tail turrets and the prop hubs were painted light grey instead of black. The bomb doors were removed and the bomb was a semi rounded over accentuated fitting fixed to bottom of the lancs, a good pic of that appears in Lancaster at War vol 1 which has a small section on them.

[junglierating]

The best remake of the Dambusters raid was always done in a bar at Decimomanu...someone will remember the name.....its remade with gullible people in the aircrew and engine positions ...a couple of jugs of water and a tea tray.Learnt this of the crabs then I carried it on every time I visited Deci.Accompanying music ner ner nered by drunk Sailors and Airman.

Those who know know.😆

[Seahawk]

11 hours ago, Whitewolf said:

Its a shame the Lancs used in the movie were all late versions with the twin .50 cal tail turrets and the prop hubs were painted light grey instead of black. The bomb doors were removed and the bomb was a semi rounded over accentuated fitting fixed to bottom of the lancs, a good pic of that appears in Lancaster at War vol 1 which has a small section on them.

At least they were real Lancasters and not say Lincolns or something else "near enough".  It's great that in those days the RAF was prepared to assist the film by pulling some of its last remaining Lancasters out of storage specially and providing crews for the filming.  Even if they wanted to do similar nowadays, some beancounter would veto it. 

[T-21]

Aerial filming was done by a Vickers Varsity WJ920 based at Hemswell and the grass airfield at Kirton-In-Lindsay nearby was also used. Avro's at Bracebridge Heath near Lincoln made the wooden mock up bouncing mine's  the true design  was kept secret under the 30 year rule Official Secrets Act. As mentioned before we were lucky to see a foretaste of the plans in the 1964 Harleyford Avro Lancaster publication.

[Twobad]

On 4/1/2022 at 5:55 PM, One 48 said:

Just watched this again, and it stills looks fresh IMHO, as always some inaccuracy, the bouncing bomb, the upkeep bomb was a cylinder with no curves, no bulging in the middle as the film shows, but it was still all top secret stuff when film was made I think?

 

 

The rounded ones were the Highball version which was developed in parallel with Upkeep for use against ships like the Tirpitz I thought. So it's not a complete deviation. They would've been testing them at the same time. They wouldn't have been fitted for the op obviously.

 

 

 

[Dave Swindell]

29 minutes ago, Twobad said:

The rounded ones were the Highball version which was developed in parallel with Upkeep for use against ships like the Tirpitz I thought.

Upkeep started out as a rounded version, but ended up cylindrical, Highball retained the rounded shape until development stopped.