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FROG HMS Repulse & HMS Prince of Wales


Steve147

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I see that FROG have re-released the above ex Airfix kits.

I have been unable to find a list of the suggested paints (presumably Humbrol) for them.

Does anyone know what they are, as although they are listed on Scalemates website, the instructions (and hence paints) are not.

Many thanks in advance

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Since the Airfix kit was issued as King George V, a preliminary question would seem to be, “what changes are needed to make an accurate representation of Prince of Wales?” (Eg just for starters POW was unique in having an Army pattern Bofors on her quarterdeck).  When the kit came out (at a time when Airfix ship new releases were thin on the ground), I don’t recall any of the mags covering a conversion to PoW, which suggests there might be more to it than meets the eye.  The kit as first issued depicted KGV around the time of her entry into service and I’d be surprised if FROG have modified the moulds.

Edited by Seahawk
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Gidday @Seahawk, I'm no expert on this but I believe that KGV was the only ship of the class to have an external degaussing coil so you'd have to remove that molded on to the KGV hull if doing PoW. Also I don't know if PoW carried those UP launches on the turrets that are molded in the KGV kit. And yes I believe she carried a single Bofors on the quarterdeck.

 

Re colour scheme for Repulse, is it the Airfix guide for Humbrol paints you need, and if so May 1941 or December?

For May '41 the instructions say Hu64 for the hull and superstructure, Hu73 for the antifouling below the waterline, Hu71 for the wood decking and Hu31 for the superstructure decks.

For December '41 the colours stipulated are the same but add Hu79 to the hull, superstructure and foc'sle deck also. I believe there are errors in the camo pattern in the Airfix instructions regarding the December guide.

My kits were Airfix, not FROG so I don't know if there are any differences. There are other Britmodeller members who could give you a more comprehensive advice than me though. HTH.    Regards, Jeff.

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Thanks for replies so far.

I am really only interested in the paints as suggested in the instructions (apparently they cover both the May & December 1941 variants).

I contacted Airfix, but they no longer had reference to the kits.  I then contacted the supplier who was selling them.  They managed to get the list of paints for Repulse (the kits just come in a plastic bag and are not boxed) as the paint list was visible through the plastic bag.  One of the suggested paints was Humbrol #95. concrete.  According to Humbrol, this paint was discontinued in 2010.  I see that there is a Model Air paint colour concrete, but this looks more like an 'earth' colour (an equivalent to this is Revell #87, eEarth Brown Matt).  This colour is not the colour I had in mind as concrete (i was thinking of a 'stone grey' or a 'cream type grey').

So, can anyone suggest a paint or even a mixture of paints that resemble 'concrete'?

Many thanks

 

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Gidday @Steve147, I replied a week ago but it seems I neglected to highlight your name to alert you, - sorry about that.

Is it the Airfix colours for HMS Repulse you want? I thought I'd given them in the post above. I'm not sure where the Hu95 concrete colour is used so I wondered if we were talking about different kits. Regards, Jeff.

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It's really not clear what that Humbrol 95 was supposed to represent on either ship. Unpainted wooden decks maybe?

 

Unless you desperately want these to look like they came from an Airfix catalogue I wouldn't worry too much about it as Airfix paint guides for WWII ships don't end up looking very realistic anyway.

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  • 1 month later...

Many thanks for the replies and apologies for a very late rely.

I did find a tin of Humbrol #95 'Concrete', in Italy, on eBay (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144459222783?hash=item21a270ceff:g:gPUAAOSwzLliLPwU ).  However, although the tin was reasonably priced, the postage wasn't (I don't mind paying £2 or £3, but not £10 and certainly not £38 for something that only costs £3!!).  The colour looks to be an 'off white'.  I've yet to buy the kit(s), so I'm hopeful that the paint suggestions are in colour, and I'll then try and manually match it against the paints I have (I'm thinking along the lines of LifeColour UA640 - RN White, LifeColour UA633 - RN Admiralty Light Grey 507C, Real Colors #2 - RAL 9001 Cream White,  or a similar in Tamiya or Revell).

I'll probably get the kits (assuming they are still in stock) towards the end of June, early July. 

If I do find a very near match to Humbrol #95, I'll post here, in case other modellers get the same problem. 

Happy modelling.

Steve

 

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Hi Ray

Many thanks for the scan.

The list I was sent for Repulse from the FROG kit, were Humbrol  27, 33, 34, 55, 64, 70, 79, & 95.  So I assume the Red Box kits were a re-release. It looks as though for the December 41 they've replaced and added a couple of paints, and for the May version, just replaced paints.

Once I get the kits, I'll place the paint suggestions side by side and take it from there.

Once again, many thanks.

 

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Can you guys enlighten me.   Has the Frog brand name been resurrected? 

Looking at Steve's original post about Frog 're releasing' the old Airfix Repulse and Prince of Wales kits made me wonder.

I thought that Frog Rovex company disappeared way back in the late sixties or early seventies.

I can remember that Frog made a good number of aircraft kits back then.

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Hi Noel

When I enquired to the supplier (eModels.co.uk) about the paints for the kits, from their reply, it seems as though the kits are packaged differently to being boxed, and they couldn't clearly see the instructions for Prince of Wales, only Repulse.  However, here is the picture of HMS  Repulse that's shown on their website:

spacer.png

(Prince of Wales is a similar picture).

I tried to look up their website as well, but it only listed aircraft and not boats, so not sure if this 'FROG' is the manufacturer you are referring to.  Sure there are others here who would know.

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On 5/22/2022 at 9:27 AM, Noel Smith said:

Can you guys enlighten me.   Has the Frog brand name been resurrected? 

Looking at Steve's original post about Frog 're releasing' the old Airfix Repulse and Prince of Wales kits made me wonder.

I thought that Frog Rovex company disappeared way back in the late sixties or early seventies.

I can remember that Frog made a good number of aircraft kits back then.

Frog went under in 1976 - https://www.liquisearch.com/frog_models/history. The brand name is currently being used by a Singapore company, Hobby Bounties, for a venture in "manufacturing and distributing scale models".

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So,  I managed to contact a company 'specialising' in Humbrol paints ([email protected]).  As well as suggesting Sky 'Type S', which had been used by other modellers, they replied with a link to a Humbrol conversion site here.  This listed Humbrol 95 as Vallejo, 70.885, Pastel Green.  I checked this against other paints and got Tamiya XF20, Medium Grey, which, to my old eyes, looks more of a 'concrete' colour, than Pastel Green or Sky 'Type S'.

Trust the above helps and many thanks for all your relies and info.

 

 

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Hi Jamie

Sorry I overlooked your post.

I am not one for going down the 'exact' colour route when it comes to painting models, whether they are aircraft, boats, military or otherwise.  I am happy to go along with the suggestions given by the kit manufacturer.  Obviously this can throw up some problems if I do not have the paint in the make suggested, e.g. I have nearly completed a Special Hobby 1/72 scale Sunderland Mk. I/II 'Flying Porcupine'.  One of the paints suggested is Extra Dark Sea Grey, which they give as MrColor #C333. I do not have that paint, but I do have the Humbrol equivalent, #123.  Another is Dark Slate Grey, which they give as a mixture of 50% each of C38 & C40.  Again, I will use Humbrol #224. They are probably slightly different shades (depending on how exact the 50% mix is), but for me I do not mind.  It is just a hobby for me during my retirement.

Just going slightly off track, so to speak, I've built a couple of Bronco military vehicles.  One of the colours suggested they have given a broad description of 'Sand' (Mr Hobby, H78, Hobby Color C38, Humbrol 66 & Tamiya XF62).  These were all Olive Green or Olive Drab - nothing like the colour in the instructions, or box artwork! (I never got a reply when I queried this with them).  So I painted the kits with Tamiya, XF57, Buff, as this looked closer to the colour in the instructions.

PS. How do I put someone's name in a reply, so that they get a flag that I've responded?

Many thanks.

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi All

Just to update you, I purchased the above models and have just completed HMS Repulse.  Instructions for both kits are photocopies of, I assume, the original Airfix instructions.  As such, trying to figure out which part gets painted with which colour, was a bit difficult.  It seems that on completion of Repulse, I have painted in the scheme suggested by  @Ray S May, 1941.

Also when I first enquired about paints for the kits, I was just sent the list of Humbrol numbers, and not the paint colour.  One was Humbrol #95, which was called 'concrete' and has since been discontinued.  However, on the instructions Humbrol #95 was called Khaki Drill, which is, according to my info, Humbrol #72. 

I now have a question relating to painting Prince of Wales (POW).

They have listed the paints used.  However on the badly photocopied pictures of the Port & Starboard colours (Admiralty First Disruptive Scheme 1941), this is what is listed:

Dark Grey (507a)

Medium Grey (507b)

Light Grey (507c)

Black (MS1)

Blue (PB10)

Sky (MS4a)

There are no references to these codes anywhere in the instructions.  So would be grateful if anyone can shed some light on them.

I do have the Life Colour paints sets (Western & Eastern Approaches) and these have paints labelled as RN Admiralty Dark Grey 507A (UA631), RN Admiralty Medium Grey  507B (UA632) & RN Admiralty Light Grey 507C (UA633), but none of the others (UA 638 is RN Western Approaches Blues).  Could these be what they codes refer to and could I use either UA639 RN Western Approaches Green or UA641 Semtex Green as Sky (MS4a)? (I ask as these are stated as 'Royal Navy colours', whereas the Humbrol paints are not).

The different colours are represented by different patterns, however. e.g. horizontal lines are Humbrol #140 Gull Grey, etc., and looking at the cover picture and paint schemes for the boat by other kit manufacturers, Tamiya, Trumpeter, etc., I 'm sure I'll eventually get it painted more-or-less correctly.  I'm just curious as to what those codes were.

One final question, on the 1/350 scale kit by Tamiya, the whole deck is painted in Deck Tan (XF-55).  On the FROG instructions, it just says 'Khaki wooden decks'.  Would I be far wrong in using XF-55? (Is Life Colour UA642 Corticene, the the same, or very similar?).

Hope the above is clear.

Many thanks for all replies.

 

 

 

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Dark Grey (507a)

Medium Grey (507b)

Light Grey (507c)

Black (MS1)

Blue (PB10)

Sky (MS4a)

 

This is a mess, to be brutally honest. 507A and 507B were in reality exactly the same colour - categorically proven beyond any doubt. Similarly dubious on that list is PB10 which was exclusively for submarines and wasn't introduced until 1944. MS4A was very light grey, not greenish like Sky. Unfortunately you'll find myriad of utterly nonsensical Royal Navy colour call-outs because some pretty fundamental mistakes were made some decades ago which badly corrupted the association of nomenclature with physical appearance and then it was compounded by authors either fabricating their information in lieu of actually knowing something or simply copying each other without any new research in between.

 

This is the only known original colour image of HMS Prince of Wales in camouflage.

PoW_August_1941_Gibraltar.jpg?v=16472500

 

@dickrd @foeth and others put a lot of time into HMS Prince of Wales in particular and this is what we arrived at:

 

HMS_Prince_of_Wales_December_1941_Revisi

 

Whereas for HMS Repulse:

 

HMS_Repulse_1941.jpg?v=1655382393

 

I don't mind what paint you want to use, but I really do care about facts. Because of that, there are some free papers available here on my website which are intended to demonstrate why some of the old myths are incorrect.

 

For 507A, B and C, I suggest a look at this one:

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/royal-navy-colours-of-world-war-two-pattern-507s-g10-and-g45

 

For the 1941-1943 Standard Camouflage Colours including MS4A, I suggest a look at this one:

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/royal-navy-colours-of-world-war-two-the-standard-camouflage-colours-1941-1943

 

Both of the above make reference to Snyder & Short Enterprises chips, which are what my our original RN model paint brand were based on, John Snyder being common to both, but we've since discontinued. Both LifeColor and Hataka are copies of the Snyder & Short colours, which is why you have 3 separate shades of model paint for 507A, B and C and none of them are close matches for either of the 2 genuine RN paint colours.

 

For a whistle stop tour with a lot of over-simplification, but which tries to more simply show the chronology and true appearance of the main WWII Royal Navy paints, see this article:

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/royal-navy-brief-history-paints

 

 

 

Nobody is suggesting that there was never any variation in the colour of mixed and applied paint. What's not grasped by most though is that most painting of capital ships in camouflage like this was performed in dockyards and that most of the paint used was purchased from a select number of approved civilian contractors with shade cards. Where colour was variable, the Admiralty had a very clear policy of getting tone (lightness/darkness, by their definition) right even if precise colour wasn't. Now then, the reason why it's still absolutely paramount to actually understand the paints in use and their true appearance before guessing which paint names were on which ship is because most of the reference photographs are in black and white, and when your understanding of the tone (Light Reflectance Value, or Reflectivity Factor, expressed as a percentage of light reflected from the paint surface) is wrong the entire paint plan is wrong.

 

Here's how Snyder & Short's chips look compared to the latest understanding. Two values for RF are given in some primary source documents for Home Fleet Grey, Admiralty Pattern 507A and 507B, being 10% RF in most documents and 13% in at least one.  Below I've shown 507A at 10% and 507B at 13% just to show the total range. It doesn't mean that B was lighter than A. It's just two cells shown adjacent. Notice how MS1 is darkest through MS4A as lightest. This is deliberate, as explained in the middle link above.

f7098a69-078f-4e43-bb37-d157b55c4b9c.png

 

Now look how the spacing of tones all goes to pot in greyscale:

d8c57814-d8b6-410b-87ed-0b095508566c.png

 

507A and MS4A are too dark. 507B as a "medium grey" doesn't exist*. 507C, MS2, MS3 and B6 are all too light, the latter 3 drastically so. This means that when used together in a camouflage pattern, several colours are prone to exchanging places when comparing to black and white photographs. In summary, it's impossible to make good model paint guides without first properly understanding what the original paints actually looked like. Fortunately for the two ships in question, we've done the hard part for you :D

 

 

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@Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies

Many, many thanks for your detailed explanation of what those references were.

As stated above, I tend to paint kits using the recommended suggestions, and if I don't have a colour in say, Humbrol, I'll check to see if I have it in another make (I have made my own conversion tables using various paint conversion websites), hence my original question of what paints I would need for the two kits.

Once again many thanks to everyone who have replied. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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