Canada buying F35’s-again….

[Robin-42]

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/f-35-negotiations-1.6399978

[exdraken]

Not the biggest surprise, no?!

 

[Alan P]

The massive loss of credibility in the R-ss-an internet disinformation mill and the recent superlative operational performance of the type has given a lot of governments previously hostile to the F-35 cause for reflection.

 

Cut off the agitprop, the myths start to die. This is not a coincidence.

[PLC1966]

Wasn't the choice really only down F-18's, or F-35 due to the rules regarding integration into the North American Air Defence system.

[junglierating]

29 minutes ago, Alan P said:

The massive loss of credibility in the R-ss-an internet disinformation mill and the recent superlative operational performance of the type has given a lot of governments previously hostile to the F-35 cause for reflection.

 

Cut off the agitprop, the myths start to die. This is not a coincidence.

Tbh Alan I haven't a scooby what you have just said there🤔😀

[Alan P]

1 minute ago, junglierating said:

Tbh Alan I haven't a scooby what you have just said there🤔😀

Sorry got on my hobby horse again 😂 it's no secret that much of the negative internet disinformation about the F-35 has been directly attributable to the concerted efforts of the R-ss-an govt since 2013. Now a lot of the momentum has gone out of the disinformation machine, the politicians who previously swallowed it are coming round to the reality of how to best integrate NATO air assets in the future.

[Filler]

I thought most of the negative noise around the F-35 came from enthusiasts like myself who despite knowing that it's very good just simply cannot stand the thing - purely from an enthusiasts point of view of course. Any chance to slag it off and ask why we can't have camouflaged Harriers and Buccaneers and Phantoms instead...

[GiampieroSilvestri]

2 hours ago, Alan P said:

Sorry got on my hobby horse again 😂 it's no secret that much of the negative internet disinformation about the F-35 has been directly attributable to the concerted efforts of the R-ss-an govt since 2013. Now a lot of the momentum has gone out of the disinformation machine, the politicians who previously swallowed it are coming round to the reality of how to best integrate NATO air assets in the future.

Until two years ago the aircraft was unbelievably expensive and now it is bought by so many gouvernements because the americans are almost giving it away to sell it.Please look at the conditions made to switzerland and Finland in relation to the offers made by Airbus with the Eurofighter,Saab with the Gripen N and Dassault with the Rafale.Political made pressure is also not to disregard in this.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero+Christian

[Alan P]

1 hour ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Until two years ago the aircraft was unbelievably expensive and now it is bought by so many gouvernements because the americans are almost giving it away to sell it.

The unit cost has never been 'unbelievably expensive' to third party customers compared to the capability offered and compared to the competitors. It's called 'economy of scale' and it was always the purpose of the original investment in the infrastructure of the program. It's not being 'given away', unit costs were always intended to become less expensive as the production ramped up. Have you seen the production facility in Fort Worth? None of the competitors can match up.

[Robin-42]

6 hours ago, PLC1966 said:

Wasn't the choice really only down F-18's, or F-35 due to the rules regarding integration into the North American Air Defence system.

I don’t believe so, most of the Gripens avionics are western and they have no problem integrating. 

[upnorth]

The sad thing is that most Canadians need to be reminded that the country has a border with Russia. Canada's northern flank is NATO's northern flank. Given that most Canadians live relatively close to the US  border, the polar regions are typically far from their minds.

 

After 1989, the Canadian media went largely silent with regards to Russian reconaissance aircraft coming over the pole into Canadian airspace; it was something they typically always reported on before the Soviet Union broke up. As a result of the drop in reporting, a lot of Canadians think it just doesn't happen anymore, when the fact is that it never stopped.

 

Protecting the northern flank is all about projecting power and enforcing deterence. If the Russians send a Bear over the pole and Canada sends F-35s up to greet it, that would be a clear show of modern airpower and deterence on Canada's part.

 

As a founding menber of NATO, Canada should be setting an example. As a member of NORAD, Canada is the sharp end of the spear and needs to be equiped in a way that properly reflects that.

 

Whatever anyone has to say about the F-35, it was the only real choice from the outset. Sad that it took so long for the obvious to come around.

[PLC1966]

1 hour ago, Robin-42 said:

I don’t believe so, most of the Gripens avionics are western and they have no problem integrating. 

Sorry, yep you're right, Gripen was in with a shout but I was thinking more about Typhoon and Rafale which were ruled out for integration issue I believe.  I suspect anything other than American was never going to happen to be honest.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

15 minutes ago, PLC1966 said:

Sorry, yep you're right, Gripen was in with a shout but I was thinking more about Typhoon and Rafale which were ruled out for integration issue I believe.  I suspect anything other than American was never going to happen to be honest.

You are right and especially the last part is 100% correct and that puts it back to the issue of political pressure.It reminds of what happened in the 1960s with the F-104.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[Mike]

7 hours ago, Alan P said:

R-ss-an

We can still see you, you know

 

Nothing to worry about so far, but please keep the politics out of this.  Difficult, but doable and it'll keep you on our Christmas list.

[Robin-42]

31 minutes ago, Mike said:

We can still see you, you know

 

Nothing to worry about so far, but please keep the politics out of this.  Difficult, but doable and it'll keep you on our Christmas list.

But I thought aircraft procurement was nothing but politics!🤣

[Mike]

2 minutes ago, Robin-42 said:

But I thought aircraft procurement was nothing but politics!🤣

That's the tricky part

[Alan P]

59 minutes ago, Mike said:

That's the tricky part

Sure is! Better to stay off the tightrope rather than try to walk it and fall off 😉

[JohnT]

1 hour ago, Robin-42 said:

But I thought aircraft procurement was nothing but politics!🤣

 

1 hour ago, Mike said:

That's the tricky part

 

7 minutes ago, Alan P said:

Sure is! Better to stay off the tightrope rather than try to walk it and fall off 😉

 

 

as in

Sir Sydney Camm "All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics. TSR-2 simply got the first three right."

[ErikT]

7 hours ago, upnorth said:

 

As a founding menber of NATO, Canada should be setting an example. As a member of NORAD, Canada is the sharp end of the spear and needs to be equiped in a way that properly reflects that.

 

 

Could you put that in the form of a letter and send it to our Prime Minister?  He doesn't seem to care what we think here at home...

[stever219]

12 hours ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Until two years ago the aircraft was unbelievably expensive and now it is bought by so many gouvernements because the americans are almost giving it away to sell it.Please look at the conditions made to switzerland and Finland in relation to the offers made by Airbus with the Eurofighter,Saab with the Gripen N and Dassault with the Rafale.Political made pressure is also not to disregard in this.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero+Christian

The Typhoon is not, as far as I know, an Airbus programme.

 

The F-104 sales in Europe were a triumph of American corporate corruption over product suitability, the F-104 was designed as a clear-weather point-defence vehicle, not an all-weather low-level interceptor and mud-mover.

[Scooby]

On 3/29/2022 at 10:07 AM, Robin-42 said:

But I thought aircraft procurement was nothing but politics!🤣

The ten year delay in the purchase of the F-35 was certainly politics. And now Putin is ‘unquestionably the best F-35 salesman of all time.’

 

I studied military equipment procurement in Royal Military College. What we were taught was you don’t purchase equipment for todays wars, you purchase for future wars against your absolutely toughest adversary. You buy equipment that will bring your nations sons and daughters home each day to fight another day. 
 

Unfortunately missing from this instruction are bean counters and not military subject matter experts often make the final decision. 
 

The RCAF fighter community is ecstatic about this purchase. They were worried we’d purchase the inferior Gryphon.

 

I served with Billie Flynn, who is a now retired F-35 test pilot. Two former squadron mates are serving on exchange with the USAF and RAAF on the F-35. It is absolutely the only answer for the best weapons platform for Canada, NATO forces, and NORAD.

[Filler]

Makes you wonder who is left that would buy Gripen/Rafale/Typhoon. Are sales of those all but over now?

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

3 hours ago, Filler said:

Makes you wonder who is left that would buy Gripen/Rafale/Typhoon. Are sales of those all but over now?

Probably not, there is still a demand for F-15’s and F-16’s. There are secondary air force's around the globe that won’t/don't need a stealth aircraft. Not to mention that front line Air force’s like NATO need secondary strike aircraft and back-up interceptors for the stealth. 

[Greg B]

4 hours ago, Filler said:

Makes you wonder who is left that would buy Gripen/Rafale/Typhoon. Are sales of those all but over now?

 

I would expect that the current situation in Ukraine and the worldwide uncertainty and reinforcement of the need for defence security in numbers allowing multiple commitments, will cause existing and future users to revisit their actual required fleet size, whilst also updating and maintaining operational status of the existing fleet. 

[exdraken]

9 hours ago, Filler said:

Makes you wonder who is left that would buy Gripen/Rafale/Typhoon. Are sales of those all but over now?

not necessarily, as not everybody is even cleared to buy the F-35....

The Rafale has the unique feature of not having US strings attached... not for systems and not for weapons...

see the recent success of the Rafale in Egypt, Qatar, and just some months ago the UAE for 80! Rafale F4s......

Also Greece opted for Rafales for quick delivery...

 

regarding EF and Rafale, , they did not even bid in Canada because of specific requirements there....

 

and there is one important thing to note: the F-35 has proven itself now as being an affordable plane.... for purchase.... no info out there about its long term sustainability and the relevance of its stealth modes...

just look at the issues the USAF as with maintaining the F-22 fleet (they want to reduce the small fleet even further and completely retire it before 2030), the same seems true for the earlier F-35 Blocks.. the US is even reducing order until Block 4 models will be available....

 

ans USAF is increasing its purchase of F-15EX jets...... not really stealth at all! so yes, there still is a chance for EF and Gripen E/F I think!