Slater Posted March 24, 2022 Share Posted March 24, 2022 During it's service life, I believe the F-104S carried both the AIM-7 Sparrow and the Italian Aspide missiles. Were both types painted white? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WARDOG Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 Hi Slater, I will check again but as far as I can tell, yes, they were both white. WARDOG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 Sparrows on the S were always white. There are very few pictures of F-104s actually carrying the Aspide missile in service and it's not easy to tell... ground and sea launched Aspide were white and so were the ones used during trials on the F-104, however I've seen a couple of pictures showing light grey missiles. Since the Sparrows all seem to have been white, these were probably Aspide Not that the Aspide was used that much, it was introduced during the ASA conversion and by the time of the ASA-M update both this and the Sparrow were rarely seen, with most aircraft carrying the AIM-9L as armament. Most pictures of Italian Starfighter with SHAR missiles show Sparrows 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 4 hours ago, Giorgio N said: Sparrows on the S were always white. There are very few pictures of F-104s actually carrying the Aspide missile in service and it's not easy to tell... ground and sea launched Aspide were white and so were the ones used during trials on the F-104, however I've seen a couple of pictures showing light grey missiles. Since the Sparrows all seem to have been white, these were probably Aspide Not that the Aspide was used that much, it was introduced during the ASA conversion and by the time of the ASA-M update both this and the Sparrow were rarely seen, with most aircraft carrying the AIM-9L as armament. Most pictures of Italian Starfighter with SHAR missiles show Sparrows Am I correct, Giorgio, that generally they carried just one of each? AIM-7 and AIM-9 https://www.airliners.net/photo/Italy-Air-Force/Lockheed-Aeritalia-F-104S-Starfighter/5339103 https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=56027&p=425388 http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/1933/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 Yes, the most commonly used armament configuration was with one missile per type, carried under the wings on the outer pylons. This was the configuration generally used by aircraft on alert duty. It was not the only configuration used however: for a while a number of aircraft carried two Sidewinder on the wingtips while late in the type career the most common configuration was with 2 underwing AIM-9L. Rarely used was the configuration with 4 missiles, 2 IR (on the wingtips) and 2 SARH (under the outer wing pylons). This would have likely been used in real war, while in peacetime the lighter configurations were preferred (lighter in terms of missiles, as the presence of the tanks actually made these heavier in terms of weight) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slater Posted March 25, 2022 Author Share Posted March 25, 2022 Not very familiar with the Aspide, but I gather that all variants used the clipped-wing configuration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted March 25, 2022 Share Posted March 25, 2022 If I understand and remember it correctly, the AMI F-104 stood alert during Allied Force in 1999 ( Kosovo war) with one Aspide and one Sidewinder missile. I think there are photos out there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slater Posted March 25, 2022 Author Share Posted March 25, 2022 I have this Kinetic 1/48 kit on order. It apparently includes enlarged intakes that were a feature of the "S". http:// 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted March 26, 2022 Share Posted March 26, 2022 15 hours ago, Slater said: Not very familiar with the Aspide, but I gather that all variants used the clipped-wing configuration? If you main the main wings, the clipped configuration was used on the surface launched variants. These originally had folding wings like the improved Sea Sparrow, to be used in the same Mk.29 launcher, but problems with these led to the adoption of clipped wings. The air launched variant retained the standard Sparrow wings. Selenia, the company that designed the missile, had previously built the Sparrow under license so really the Aspide was just an inproved AIM-7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slater Posted March 26, 2022 Author Share Posted March 26, 2022 Apparently some "S" models retained the M61 20mm gun while others didn't. Or is this incorrect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted March 26, 2022 Share Posted March 26, 2022 1 hour ago, Slater said: Apparently some "S" models retained the M61 20mm gun while others didn't. Or is this incorrect? The S was built in two configurations: - CI (caccia intercettore, interceptor fighter). This had no gun as its space was used for the avionics related to the Sparrow missile. -CB (caccia bombardiere, fighter bomber). This retained the gun and therefore could not use SARH missiles but only sidewinders. The gun on the CB was usually removed to make room for an extra tank in the aircraft tasked for nuclear strike missions. Groups tasked with air defence missions were equipped with the CI, those with ground attack as mission had the CB, although a number of CB were used by 37th Stormo for air defence with sidewinders only after the Tornado startes replacing the type in the attack and strike role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted March 26, 2022 Share Posted March 26, 2022 Some F.104S weapons info, I don't speak Italian so I don't know how useful it is? John 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slater Posted March 26, 2022 Author Share Posted March 26, 2022 Good information. The only AIM-7 variant I see mentioned is the AIM-7E. So (presumably) the F-104S never used the later AIM-7F or AIM-7M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt-92 Posted March 26, 2022 Share Posted March 26, 2022 47 minutes ago, Slater said: Good information. The only AIM-7 variant I see mentioned is the AIM-7E. So (presumably) the F-104S never used the later AIM-7F or AIM-7M. Timestamp on the docs say June 1987. The -7F model looks to be similar to the Aspide anyway, as far as capabilities go. Could be there was no need to use the F. Incidentally, found some interesting cockpit layout differences between the CC and CB variants here: https://theaviationist.com/special-reports/italian-f-104-versions-explained/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slater Posted March 26, 2022 Author Share Posted March 26, 2022 Wikipedia has this entry regarding Aspide: "Aspide Mk.1 - Similar to AIM-7E, with Selenia monopulse semi-active seeker and SNIA-Viscosa solid-propellant rocket motor. This version was popular with export customers, and sold to 17 countries." If accurate, the Aspide Mk 1 was close in design to the AIM-7M, which introduced monopulse guidance to the Sparrow family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted March 27, 2022 Share Posted March 27, 2022 13 hours ago, canberra kid said: Some F.104S weapons info, I don't speak Italian so I don't know how useful it is? John Thanks for sharing these John! A few comments that may be of interest.. The Italian text (from the type manual) mentions both the original S and the ASA updates. The weapons available for the pre-ASA aircraft is AIM-7E and AIM-9B, the ASA add the Aspide and AIM-9L. The two different configurations for interception and ground attack missions are also discussed with the different armament and other equipment differences. They use different acronyms from the ones I used but the meaning is the same. The 4 drawings interestingly include the BL-22 pylons, only introduced on the S. These had stopped being used well before 1987 but were in theory useable. IIRC the later ASA-M update removed all wiring for these pylons since they were never used and the last picture, from the manual of the ASA-M, indeed does not mention them. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertopinal Posted March 27, 2022 Share Posted March 27, 2022 On 3/25/2022 at 9:20 PM, Slater said: I have this Kinetic 1/48 kit on order. It apparently includes enlarged intakes that were a feature of the "S". http:// The intakes of the S are NOT enlarged, but only had the lip cutted back by 1/2 inch. The more air needed by the motor, under some limited circumstance, was feeded by the opening the lateral squared portholes. r. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hook Posted March 29, 2022 Share Posted March 29, 2022 Does the Kinetic S have the correct leading edge angle on the main ventral fin, which differs from other variants? Cheers, Andre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEasternSpy Posted April 14, 2022 Share Posted April 14, 2022 Hello, do any of you know anything about the AN/ALQ-73 ECM set aboard the ASA starfighters. If you do, do you have any technical documentation? Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted April 15, 2022 Share Posted April 15, 2022 19 hours ago, TheEasternSpy said: Hello, do any of you know anything about the AN/ALQ-73 ECM set aboard the ASA starfighters. If you do, do you have any technical documentation? Thank you. Since this seems to be your first port, let me first of all say welcome to the forum ! The AN/ALQ-73 was used in conjunction with the AN/ALQ-70 system and was only used on the ASA. Earlier S had the AN/ALQ-70 but not the 73. With the ASA-M update the systems were removed, something that was quite puzzling... it's true that both systems were quite old by then but they had proved to work well in exercixes. The antennas were installed on all aircraft but only those in the fighter-bomber units had the system actually connected. The AN/ALQ-73 antennas were located on the aircraft rear belly, just ahead of the parabrake door. Best way to show the antenna is to share this link from an Italian modelling forum. It is a description of all F-104 variants in Italian Air Force use with notes on all the differences. Being made by modellers for modellers it goes into a lot of details. Mind, the system is here named ALQ-72 and not 73... other Italian sources use the 73 designation. Now I have not yet managed to track down if the system actually installed was the 72 or 73 and I understand that this, if you're interested in the history of the system, is a problem... If you're howevber interested in the modelling side, then the link will solve your doubts https://modelingtime.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17306 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthViper Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 Giorgio Are Aspide and Sidewinder different names for the same kind of vipers ? SouthViper from Brazil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 1 hour ago, SouthViper said: Giorgio Are Aspide and Sidewinder different names for the same kind of vipers ? SouthViper from Brazil Different snakes: aspide is an Italian alternative name for the "common" viper found in southern Europe (and of course Italy). The commonly used name in Italian language is vipera though. Sidewinder is a name used for a common species of American rattlesnake. Now IIRC European vipers and rattlesnakes are subfamilies of the same family but the two snakes are quite different.. but really I'm not an expert on snakes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WARDOG Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 Very good information here and since we're on the subject; can someone tell me what color the intakes are on the ASA-M? My old eyes can't tell if its silver gray or light gray (the same as the fuselage color). All help appreciated, WARDOG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthViper Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 2 hours ago, WARDOG said: Very good information here and since we're on the subject; can someone tell me what color the intakes are on the ASA-M? My old eyes can't tell if its silver gray or light gray (the same as the fuselage color). All help appreciated, WARDOG I found this pic, looks gray inside intakes https://www.airliners.net/photo/Italy-Air-Force/Lockheed-Aeritalia-F-104S-ASA-Starfighter/2261912/L Published here under the fair use of images. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WARDOG Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 21 hours ago, SouthViper said: I found this pic, looks gray inside intakes https://www.airliners.net/photo/Italy-Air-Force/Lockheed-Aeritalia-F-104S-ASA-Starfighter/2261912/L Published here under the fair use of images. Thanks, SouthViper. I too BELIEVE they are Gray but, when I see they match the landing gear strut color (which I KNOW are dull silver), I begin to doubt myself! I'll either figure it out or get it wrong! 🙂 Cheers, WARDOG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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