1:72 Emhar McDonnell F3H-2N Demon

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

18 minutes ago, Terry1954 said:

 

Aha! A target trailing Demon is perhaps another candidate for the Target facilities SIG Dennis! 🤔

 

Terry

Wasn't there a group build for targets in the planning stages ? If so Im doing an F-84F with a towed target. 

[Terry1954]

3 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Wasn't there a group build for targets in the planning stages ? If so Im doing an F-84F with a towed target. 

 

I need to check that one out, thanks!

 

Thread drift apologies Bill, but this is important stuff!

 

Terry

[Navy Bird]

1 hour ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Wasn't there a group build for targets in the planning stages ?

 

A group build for the targets or the towers? As usual, I will have built my entry (this Demon) too early for the group build.  

 

1 hour ago, Terry1954 said:

Thread drift apologies Bill, but this is important stuff!

 

No worries Terry! Drift is prevalent in threads started by our friend @Martian - when it happens here it's just folks filling in the dead spaces whilst the modeller is loafing off.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

12 minutes ago, Navy Bird said:

A group build for the targets or the towers? As usual, I will have built my entry (this Demon) too early for the group build.  

Apologies as well for any thread drift, I went ahead and started a group build thread anyways and there are plenty of options just in case you find something that peaks your curiosity. 
 

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[Tailspin Turtle]

On 4/23/2022 at 9:28 PM, Tailspin Turtle said:

One surprise to me is that the roll-control spoilers appear to both be raised when the wings are folded and the airplane is taxiing out. I don't think that they are when the power is off. It's not unusual for ailerons to not be in trail, so to speak, because of the need to cross the fold joint with mechanical controls, but these are inboard of the fold joint and below about Mach .82, locked out. Plus when functioning in flight, only one will be up at a time...

Jerry Wells did a deep dive into F3H flight and maintenance manuals to provide more insight into the roll-control spoiler function. First, the switch over between aileron and spoiler roll control was at indicated airspeed, not a Mach number. As the Demon accelerated through 560 +/-7 knots, roll control was switched from the ailerons to the spoilers. As speed decreased through 545 +/- 7 knots, roll control switched back. Second, and most interesting to me, is that the push rods of the lateral control system went from the ailerons to the spoilers, i.e. crossed back across the fold joint. As a result of the kinematics of the rods and bell cranks, when the wings were folded, both spoilers were receiving an extend signal (presumably, when there was no hydraulic power to the spoilers, they closed like flaps, gear doors, speed brakes, etc. drooped after engine shutdown). With respect to a control check on the ground, the pilot could select Emergency Spoilers, which resulted in them responding to lateral stick.

[Tailspin Turtle]

On 4/23/2022 at 9:28 PM, Tailspin Turtle said:

One surprise to me is that the roll-control spoilers appear to both be raised when the wings are folded and the airplane is taxiing out. I don't think that they are when the power is off. It's not unusual for ailerons to not be in trail, so to speak, because of the need to cross the fold joint with mechanical controls, but these are inboard of the fold joint and below about Mach .82, locked out. Plus when functioning in flight, only one will be up at a time...

Jerry Wells did a deep dive into F3H flight and maintenance manuals to provide more insight into the roll-control spoiler function. First, the switch over between aileron and spoiler roll control was at indicated airspeed, not a Mach number. As the Demon accelerated through 560 +/-7 knots, roll control was switched from the ailerons to the spoilers. As speed decreased through 545 +/- 7 knots, roll control switched back. Second, and most interesting to me, is that the push rods of the lateral control system went from the ailerons to the spoilers, i.e. crossed back across the fold joint. As a result of the kinematics of the rods and bell cranks, when the wings were folded, both spoilers were receiving an extend signal (presumably, when there was no hydraulic power to the spoilers, they closed like flaps, gear doors, speed brakes, etc. drooped after engine shutdown). With respect to a control check on the ground, the pilot could select Emergency Spoilers, which resulted in them responding to lateral stick.

[Navy Bird]

37 minutes ago, Tailspin Turtle said:

Jerry Wells did a deep dive into F3H flight and maintenance manuals to provide more insight into the roll-control spoiler function...

 

Very interesting information Tommy. I skimmed through the Ginter volume and the D&S book and didn't see any mention of the spoilers being raised while the wings were folded and the aircraft was taxiing. I could have missed it though. In any event, thanks to you and Jerry for educating us. That linkage which crossed the wing fold connecting aileron and spoiler must have been an fascinating engineering challenge.    👍

 

*****

 

Just two missiles to add to my Super Bug and I'll be back on the Demon full time. 

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Tailspin Turtle]

On 5/7/2022 at 8:20 PM, Navy Bird said:

 

Very interesting information Tommy. I skimmed through the Ginter volume and the D&S book and didn't see any mention of the spoilers being raised while the wings were folded and the aircraft was taxiing. I could have missed it though. In any event, thanks to you and Jerry for educating us. That linkage which crossed the wing fold connecting aileron and spoiler must have been an fascinating engineering challenge.    👍

 

*****

 

Just two missiles to add to my Super Bug and I'll be back on the Demon full time. 

 

Cheers,

Bill

But wait, there's more!: http://tailhooktopics.blogspot.com/2022/05/mcdonnell-f3h-demon-roll-control.html

[Navy Bird]

The F3H Demon had fuel dumps for the wing tanks on each wing between the flaps and ailerons, as can be seen in this overhead shot:

 

 

Most of the photos I've seen show the fuel dumps painted up as a nice candy cane, presumably so you don't smack some irreplaceable part of your body against them if you're not paying attention. When the flaps are down and the wings folded, the fuel dumps stick out quite a bit and are rather precarious. 

 

 

The Emhar kit represented these in styrene rather poorly. What the kit included were just simple sticks, as can still be seen in the flaps that I cut out.

 

 

I decided to try and reproduce these with brass tubing, which would require me to flatten the tubing a bit since the actual fuel dumps did not have a circular cross section. This was pretty easy to do, but what was not so easy was to get an even, consistent flattening. It wouldn't be a problem if I had an arbor press, but I was working with pliers. I finally settled on a ginormous pair of water pump pliers with wide jaws. This allowed me to flatten the entire length of tube at the same time, applying a consistent pressure. Closest thing I could find to an arbor press.

 

The fuel dumps on the Demon emerged from a u-shaped metal conduit which I represented with some styrene card stock. I didn't attempt to make the u-shape as it would be too small in 1:72 scale and the flap would obscure most of it anyway. At the end of the day, I think these will work. How I'm going to paint the candy cane is beyond me.

 

 

 

So, how many times will I bonk these off before the end of the build?   

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Navy Bird]

Quick update - the Demon is now winged, with no anhedral or dihedral (as far as my old eyeballs can see) when viewed head-on to the wings.

 

The fit is not the greatest, so I will be filling the wing roots. Interestingly, I had to remove the tab on each lower wing in order to make the wing fit into the slot in the fuselage. It was either that, or open up the slot significantly. I took the easy way out. In another example of my laziness, I did not cut out the section of tab visible through the main gear well opening (as was advised by a modeller who did it correctly), since I wanted to leave a "ledge" that the gear door can sit on. Anyway, here is the beastie with her wings.

 

 

Lots and lots of work still to do. I added some detail to the nose gear well, consisting of styrene card stock and rod, doing my best to make a feeble impression of the real thing. The port side of the nose gear well has some hydraulic lines and/or cables and I found a bit of old unused photoetch to fake that. A similar PE bit, without the lines, was added to the other side. (The PE came from a fret designed for a USN aircraft - 10 points for guessing which one.)

 

 

 

All of this looks absolutely horrible at this stage. Rest assured that several coats of some very thick paint will hide my inadequate modelling skills. I think. Maybe.   

 

The main linkage for the nose gear strut (which reaches back to the hole in the middle of the well) is completely erroneous in the kit. I'm now having a go at scratchbuilding one from styrene rod. I haven't really looked yet, but I suspect the same will be required for the main gear.

 

One of these days I will have to build one of them shake 'n' bake kits one hears talk about.   

 

Cheers,

Bill

[VT Red Sox Fan]

Bill, just catching up—looks amazing!  Thanks for walking us through the fuel dumps—I think you sorted this out well.  It’s nice to see the wings on—best, Erwin

[Shalako]

12 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

(The PE came from a fret designed for a USN aircraft - 10 points for guessing which one.)

P-3 Orion?

[Terry1954]

She's coming together great Bill.

 

13 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

One of these days I will have to build one of them shake 'n' bake kits one hears talk about. 

 

Do you know where we can get one of those?

 

Terry

[Navy Bird]

16 hours ago, VT Red Sox Fan said:

Bill, just catching up—looks amazing!  Thanks for walking us through the fuel dumps—I think you sorted this out well.  It’s nice to see the wings on

 

Thanks Erwin. So far I haven't knocked the fuel dumps off. Once I get the flaps on they'll be protected a bit better. They surely do look better than what came with the kit.

 

7 hours ago, Shalako said:

P-3 Orion?

 

Think jets, not propellers.   

 

6 hours ago, Terry1954 said:

She's coming together great Bill.

Do you know where we can get one of those?

 

Thanks Terry. After having a look in my stash, I believe that shake 'n' bake kits are mythical.   

 

*****

 

I was starting to think about how I could "box in" the main gear wheel wells, as the sidewalls in the kit do not extend to the floor of the well. I searched for some walkaround photos and found quite a few that show this area. For example:

 

 

 

Note that the sidewalls of the well do not extend to the floor. (Other photos show this all around the gear well.) Whether Emhar got this correct through research or by serendipity, I'm glad that I don't have to box it in. The floor of the main gear wells has a lot of rivets, but not a lot of structural detail. I found some old PE bits that will let me add some detail to the floor, although these will be light grooves and not lines of rivets. But I think it will be OK, as no one looks at the bottom of my models - not even me.

 

I'm also looking into whether the main gear legs are too tall - completed models of this kit don't seem to quite have the right "set." It should be a bit more "nose high." We'll see.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[David H]

Bill, 2 questions:

 

1) What diameter brass tubing did you use to make the fuel dump pipes from?

 

2) Detail and Scale went on almost a rant about how HobbyBoss got the location of the Sidewinder missile rails incorrect on the outboard position on their 48th scale kit. Were you planning to equip this Demon with some sort of pylons?

 

-d-

[Brandy]

The fuel dumps look the business, nice job.

Re the wheel wells, of course it's always good to find that work you thought you had to do is not necessary!

 

Ian

[Shalako]

I can't think of right now any jet that had a similar overall size or same length of front gear leg bay,. Perhaps the Fury?

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Navy Bird]

57 minutes ago, David H said:

1) What diameter brass tubing did you use to make the fuel dump pipes from?

 

2) Detail and Scale went on almost a rant about how HobbyBoss got the location of the Sidewinder missile rails incorrect on the outboard position on their 48th scale kit. Were you planning to equip this Demon with some sort of pylons?

 

1) Outside diameter of 1.0 mm and an inside diameter of 0.8 mm. Albion Alloys, of course.   

2) Haven't decided yet. Since I'll be doing the F3H-2N, there certainly won't be any Sparrows. Sparrow I missiles and the correct AERO 3A launchers are part of this kit, but I believe they're only correct for a -2 or -2M. This kit doesn't include the correct AERO 1A pylons/launchers for the Sidewinders although the other Emhar kit does. This kit has four rocket pods and pylons however. Three pylon stations are on each wing, in addition to two stations on the fuselage for the drop tanks or heavier ordnance. So I don't know, I might just do her clean.

 

23 minutes ago, Brandy said:

Re the wheel wells, of course it's always good to find that work you thought you had to do is not necessary!

 

I'll take any victory, no matter how small!    

 

22 minutes ago, Shalako said:

I can't think of right now any jet that had a similar overall size or same length of front gear leg bay,. Perhaps the Fury?

 

Another clue - the two bits of PE that I used on the sidewalls of the nose gear well were originally one piece.    

 

Cheers,

Bill

[TheBaron]

4 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

. So far I haven't knocked the fuel dumps off. Once I get the flaps on they'll be protected a bit better.

It's bringing coals to Newcastle proferring advice on one of your threads Bill but I got sick and tired of snapping off the fine tips of the booms on my Vixen and finally hit on using a protective 'blanket' of self-adhesive metal foil over the part needing protection whilst at the handling stage.

 

Said foil was rigid enough to stop glancing blows snapping anything off and easily peeled away when time for painting.

 

4 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

Think jets, not propellers

That linear repetition of rectangles puts me in mind of an F/A-18 or EA-18 nosegear door.....?

[Navy Bird]

3 hours ago, TheBaron said:

It's bringing coals to Newcastle proferring advice on one of your threads Bill but I got sick and tired of snapping off the fine tips of the booms on my Vixen and finally hit on using a protective 'blanket' of self-adhesive metal foil over the part needing protection whilst at the handling stage.

<snip>

That linear repetition of rectangles puts me in mind of an F/A-18 or EA-18 nosegear door.....?

 

Sounds like a good idea to me. Normally, I don't put pointy things (pitot tubes, nose probes, antennae, etc.) on the model until the very end. Not sure why I decided to add the fuel dumps before the wings went on - probably because it was easier to get at.

 

Still no winner in the "guess where the PE came from" riddle. Here's another clue - it's from an Eduard set for a Revell kit.

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. So Newcastle already has enough of their own coal? Being a silly Yank, I don't get the reference. I bet @Procopius knows.

 

[Terry1954]

14 minutes ago, Navy Bird said:

Still no winner in the "guess where the PE came from" riddle. Here's another clue - it's from an Eduard set for a Revell kit.

 

How about an F-14 or maybe an F-22. That's two guesses so maybe i get disqualified!

 

Terry

[Navy Bird]

41 minutes ago, Terry1954 said:

How about an F-14 or maybe an F-22. That's two guesses so maybe i get disqualified!

 

We have a winner! You only get 5 of the 10 points because you guessed twice. To get the other 5 points you have to guess which of the two it came from AND you have to finish this bloody model for me!    

 

Cheers,

Bill

[giemme]

Impressive detailing, Bill - that wheel well looks suitably busy!  

Ciao

[Galligraphics]

12 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

PS. So Newcastle already has enough of their own coal? Being a silly Yank, I don't get the reference.

It’s like sending sand to the Sahara or selling ice to Eskimos (or should that be Inuits?) - Newcastle was known for exporting coal. So a pointless exercise…

[Procopius]

16 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

PS. So Newcastle already has enough of their own coal? Being a silly Yank, I don't get the reference. I bet @Procopius knows.

 

 

I like how Bill likes to pretend he isn't (conservative estimate) two or three times smarter than me. As it happens, however, my mother uses the expression all the time and has for as long as I can remember, presumably a legacy of burying the coke-bottle glasses of her youth in any book she could get her hands on, since she didn't set foot outside the midwest until 1978.