Jagdpanther G2 - late WW2 - Help needed with interior colours

[Johnson]

Hi Folks,

 

After a long layoff from armour, mostly Allied, I'm embarking on the Takom 1/35 Jagdpanther G2 with full interior (which looks fantastic!) but I'm struggling with the interior colours. What's really puzzling me is what parts or areas were painted in RAL 9001 Cremeweiss?

 

Takom's instructions indicate that the inside (less the running gear, gun, engine etc) were painted RAL 8012 Rotbraun.

 

 

But the Rye Field Models G2 (and other builds I found online) indicate that the upper areas were RAL 9001 Cremeweiss;

 

 

I've got some useful notes I found online by David Byrden - Panzer Colours - who writes that in Sept 1944 an order went out to stop using the light cream/white colour (he calls it Ivory) and just paint everything with Rotbraun. Then at the end of 1944 'the Ivory paint was reinstated'. So, I'm thinking that Cremeweiss or Ivory would be right for the upper areas of a late war Jagdpanther G2. Correct?

 

I know that this topic is a bit of a  but any advice or pointers to a reliable guide would be really appreciated!

Cheers,

 

 

[dov]

The color:

 

The red color is a primer. This primer is called Minium. The primer contains lead oxyd. This is very toxic.

I asume from production history: Just using the primer reduces manhours. But if crews got sick, this was a reason to change the production again.

 

On the other hand: If you had to restore a battle stricken tank, you have to clean the inside of human remnants. The red color is flat and you can not clean the interior at all! Blood can not be wadhed out. Impossible! 

So the white color again is used.

This is the storry behind.

I know a little in steel workshops from my own job. Used this paints in my job quite often.

Happy modelling 

[Tigerausfb]

The inside of Bovingtons Jagdpanther is painted exactly like Takom instructs (including side walls and roof) except the metal parts of the ammo racks looked like Dunklegelb to me, while the wooden part wot the round sits on appears to have been Elefenbein (Ivory), though a lot has flaked off.  Rotbraun/Red Brown is a bit of a misnomer too, not much brown in the red paint they used.

[Bozothenutter]

11 hours ago, Tigerausfb said:

The inside of Bovingtons Jagdpanther is painted exactly like Takom instructs (including side walls and roof) except the metal parts of the ammo racks looked like Dunklegelb to me, while the wooden part wot the round sits on appears to have been Elefenbein (Ivory), though a lot has flaked off.  Rotbraun/Red Brown is a bit of a misnomer too, not much brown in the red paint they used.

but the outside of the Bovington Panther is as if it covered in bacon strips..........

[Tigerausfb]

Not been there for years, since they did all the buildings up. Back in the day it was heaven (except for the paint jobs!)  

Edited March 23, 2022 by Tigerausfb

[Johnson]

23 hours ago, Tigerausfb said:

The inside of Bovingtons Jagdpanther is painted exactly like Takom instructs (including side walls and roof) except the metal parts of the ammo racks looked like Dunklegelb to me, while the wooden part wot the round sits on appears to have been Elefenbein (Ivory), though a lot has flaked off.  Rotbraun/Red Brown is a bit of a misnomer too, not much brown in the red paint they used.

Do you reckon the Rotbraun was original paint?

 

9 minutes ago, Tigerausfb said:

Not been there for years, since they did all the buildings up. Back in the day it was heaven (except for the paint jobs!)  

I haven't been there since I was a kid in the 1960s. You could climb all over them, don't suppose that's allowed now!

[Longbow]

On 3/22/2022 at 5:53 PM, Tigerausfb said:

The inside of Bovingtons Jagdpanther is painted exactly like Takom instructs (including side walls and roof) except the metal parts of the ammo racks looked like Dunklegelb to me, while the wooden part wot the round sits on appears to have been Elefenbein (Ivory), though a lot has flaked off.  Rotbraun/Red Brown is a bit of a misnomer too, not much brown in the red paint they used.

I would think that the Bovington JP is as far from original as you can about get, unfortunately. 
If the inside is anything like the outside, well, nuff said about that, really. 

[Tigerausfb]

16 hours ago, Longbow said:

I would think that the Bovington JP is as far from original as you can about get, unfortunately. 
If the inside is anything like the outside, well, nuff said about that, really. 

The inside is (or was when I went in) nothing like the outside, original paint.  Outside paint job aside what makes you say it's far from unoriginal?

[Tigerausfb]

21 hours ago, Johnson said:

Do you reckon the Rotbraun was original paint?

 

I haven't been there since I was a kid in the 1960s. You could climb all over them, don't suppose that's allowed now!

Yes on the interior. But Red not red/brown!

[Bozothenutter]

Google oxide primer (no RAL number please) and pick any one of the reds that pop up.

Being a primer, specifying a specific colour makes no sense, it will be covered by other paints and function is more important.

This is borne out by relics of subassemblies being differe t shades of red.

[dov]

Hallo

 

The lead oxide primer called Minium.

 

Minium, also known under the synonym red lead, is a rather rarely occurring mineral from the mineral class of "oxides and hydroxides".

It crystallizes in the tetragonal crystal system with the chemical composition Pb2+2Pb4+O4[2] and is therefore chemically lead(II,IV) oxide.

Minium only develops microscopically small crystals and is found in nature exclusively in the form of coarse or earthy masses and powdery traces of light red to brownish red color with yellow-orange line color.

 

This is a short part from wikipedia, it does not exist in English.

 

Anyway, the color of minium changes. Dramaticaly, depending on the exposure.

So, you will find the range from red to brown and almost brown-black.

No RAL number at all. It is like the human skin, from winter to summer, the color change!

 

Happy modelling

[Longbow]

On 3/24/2022 at 2:50 PM, Tigerausfb said:

The inside is (or was when I went in) nothing like the outside, original paint.  Outside paint job aside what makes you say it's far from unoriginal?

Quote…

 

This Jagdpanther was one of a batch found partly completed on the production lines at MNH (Hannover) after the German surrender and completed under supervision by REME.

[Tigerausfb]

Exactly my point Assembled in 1945-1946 with war-time parts. by former workers. 

[Longbow]

But under REME supervision, as a quick build. 
You think they’d care about getting the interior paint in exactly the right places ?

I think not. 
And at that time, the MNH plant had no roof, and only partial walls. Not very conducive to to a fine quality finish. 

[Longbow]

“Right lads !! Never mind the white, just get in there and slap the red on it !!”

 

 

 

And, yes, those are photos of the MNH Plant after the 8th had done its work. 

[Longbow]

Which does bring to mind another thought….

 

I wonder which one the picked. If they built off a partially complete vehicle, or started from scratch with a bare shell, in the phosphate coating. 

 

I can see benefits of both. A quick finish, or a, Let’s see how how they did this…
 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Longbow

[Johnson]

10 hours ago, Longbow said:

But under REME supervision, as a quick build. 
You think they’d care about getting the interior paint in exactly the right places ?

I think not. 
And at that time, the MNH plant had no roof, and only partial walls. Not very conducive to to a fine quality finish. 

 

I see what you mean, but isn't it a bit difficult to get inside the head of a worker being asked to finish a one-off job, completing a tank that was one of the best in the world at the time? Might of thought 'get it done and get the Hell out', or 'last tank, I'll do a good job'. Impossible to say.

 

Amazing pics @Longbow, thanks.

[11bravo]

On 3/21/2022 at 1:27 PM, dov said:

The color:

 

The red color is a primer. This primer is called Minium. The primer contains lead oxyd. This is very toxic.

I asume from production history: Just using the primer reduces manhours. But if crews got sick, this was a reason to change the production again.

 

Unfortunately, you are mistaken on both counts.   Lead is a inhalation / ingestion hazard that takes a very long time to cause damage.   I promise you that there was no Nazi equivalent to the US's OSHA that shut down the painting of these tanks due to potential long-term health hazards with the tank crews.   I think Germany had much more pressing concerns.   

 

Same for the inability to remove blood from the interior.   By late in the war, if a Germany tank was hit and had crewmembers killed, it was more than likely simply abandoned.    No one cared about how it was going to be cleaned out.    The reason for the switching of interior colors is very straightforward - They eliminated the white color to save production time/money.   However, this resulted in multiple complaints from the crew that they couldn't see well inside the vehicle when it was buttoned up (which was the original purpose in selecting this color).   As this was impacting combat efficiency, the original interior paint was quickly re-introduced. 

[dov]

Sorry, @11bravo, I worked really in this industry.  

 

The diseases caused by lead are difficult to understand in several ways.

There are so many forms of it.

We therefore had to take poisoning preventive measures.

Annual medical examinations. Many other things.

The workforce has been screened and treated for this since the 1920s.

In the years of war, this deseas was already well known!

Switching hit tanks by crews was also normal in Israel in both great wars. The cleaning included!

 

Happy modelling

[Johnson]

1 hour ago, 11bravo said:

However, this resulted in multiple complaints from the crew that they couldn't see well inside the vehicle when it was buttoned up (which was the original purpose in selecting this color).   As this was impacting combat efficiency, the original interior paint was quickly re-introduced. 

 

Thanks @11bravo. This agrees with Jentz and Doyle (Panzer Tracts No.9-3 "Jagdpanther" which states on page 9-3-41:

 

Ivory Paint on Superstructure Interior - On 15 February 1945, M.N.H. reported that the interior of the Wanne Jagdpanther G1 was to be painted Elfenbein (ivory) on the inside superstructure walls and ceiling above including the panniers. The rest of the surface was to remain unpainted (only covered with red oxide undercoat) in accordance with the Sparanstrich (paint saving) guidelines.

 

But would this also apply and be correct for my Jagdpanther G2 operational in May 1945?

 

And (if anyone knows) what's a Wanne Jagdpanther? Wanne translates to 'tub' on google!?

 

Thanks

 

 

[11bravo]

13 hours ago, dov said:

Sorry, @11bravo, I worked really in this industry.  

 

The diseases caused by lead are difficult to understand in several ways.

There are so many forms of it.

We therefore had to take poisoning preventive measures.

Annual medical examinations. Many other things.

The workforce has been screened and treated for this since the 1920s.

In the years of war, this deseas was already well known!

Switching hit tanks by crews was also normal in Israel in both great wars. The cleaning included!

 

Happy modelling

I currently work in the environmental remediation industry and trust me, I know all about the short and long term effects of exposure to lead and how to mitigate them.  It's just that in 1945, occupational health and safety just wasn't a priority in Germany.  No one cared if a panzer crewmember might get sick from exposure to lead 10 years after the war.    And yes, cleaning up operable tanks that had taken crew casualties was (and still is) somewhat common.  However, that had nothing to do with the reason why Elfenbein was re-introduced.   

[Panda Commander]

14 hours ago, Johnson said:

 

 

And (if anyone knows) what's a Wanne Jagdpanther? Wanne translates to 'tub' on google!?

 

 

 

 

 

Wanne means “hull” in this context. lt refers to the hulls of all Jagdpanther G1-series vehicles.

 

Panda Commander

[Johnson]

10 hours ago, Panda Commander said:

lt refers to the hulls of all Jagdpanther G1-series vehicles.

Thanks. So not applicable to Jagdpanther G2? They being left painted with the difficult to see anything red oxide.

 

Takom may have got it right. I hope so because I’ve followed their instructions.