Sherman VC Firefly

[diablo rsv]

This is my first experience of a group build and I've been looking forwards to this ever since it got through the Bunfight. Initially I was a little undecided what to build as I am in the process of building a representation of all the main British AFV's. I guess technically the Firefly can be claimed as British even though it is really an adaptation of the M4. I do intend to work my way through the lend/lease vehicles as well so the Firefly fits in nicely with my plans. My other option was to build the Miniart Grant Mk.I just because having just completed the Centurion and with a Charioteer and a Cromwell in the building process this will be my fourth model finished in SCC No.15 Olive Drab, but I hope practice makes perfect. 

 

 

 

I have had this one in my stash since its release and from what I gather it's a very nice kit. Looking in the box and glancing through the instructions it certainly looks as though the quality is very good and aftermarket shouldn't be required.

 

 

At the moment I haven't found a particular subject that I want to model. I would like to show the practice of counter shading the 17pdr to disguise its length, as seen on the photo below, however most of the photos I could find of this practice seem to be on Polish, Canadian or South African run tanks. Does anyone know if the British did this to their tanks?

 

 

I just need to tidy-up my work room and hopefully I can get started.

 

 

Didn't take too long, and it does feel good to have a tidy work space.

 

 

Wayne

 

 

[diases]

Poor dog got tidied away.

 

Paul

[bigfoot]

That’s a well organised work space and a good choice of kit.

 

As for markings, I’ve definitely seen pictures of guards armoured division fireflies with counter shaded barrels.

[bigfoot]

Here you go, although it’s a Ic GAD used Vc as well.

 

[Bertie McBoatface]

Those benches will be cluttered again within the week! 😁

 

I'll be interested to see the Ryefield kit go together. I believe they have a good reputation but I've never had one myself.

[Jasper dog]

2 hours ago, diablo rsv said:

Initially I was a little undecided what to build as I am in the process of building a representation of all the main British AFV's. I guess technically the Firefly can be claimed as British even though it is really an adaptation of the M4.

Well of course the M4 Sherman is British, it was built by the Americans but to a British procurement order with a lot of design assistance by the French chap responsible for the castings on the early war French tank designs....

(Any disagreement take it up with James Holland, Al Murray and We Have Ways ).

 

Great choice of kit and a super work space, even in photo 1, not envious in the slightest.....

 

Good luck

Darryl 

[edjbartos]

This looks interesting Wayne, I've never an M4 before so will follow along... Good luck with the build

 

Ed

[PlaStix]

Hi Wayne and welcome to the GB. Great to have you here and with what looks to be an impressive looking kit! Can't wait to see you work your magic on it!

Kind regards,

Stix

[diablo rsv]

4 hours ago, diases said:

Poor dog got tidied away.

 

Paul

 

It's ok Paul, I just moved him up the other end with the others.😆

 

 

1 hour ago, Jasper dog said:

Well of course the M4 Sherman is British, it was built by the Americans but to a British procurement order with a lot of design assistance by the French chap responsible for the castings on the early war French tank designs....

(Any disagreement take it up with James Holland, Al Murray and We Have Ways ).

 

Great choice of kit and a super work space, even in photo 1, not envious in the slightest.....

 

Good luck

Darryl 

 

That's good enough for me Darryl, British it is then. 😆

 

3 hours ago, bigfoot said:

Here you go, although it’s a Ic GAD used Vc as well.

 

 

Thanks for that, I did find an image and a profile of a Guards VC but it didn't have the counter shading. I could of course just guess at something but that kind of messes with my head so to be safe I will probably go with one of the better documented VC's without the counter shading or I could just go Polish.

 

3 hours ago, Bertie Psmith said:

Those benches will be cluttered again within the week! 😁

 

I'll be interested to see the Ryefield kit go together. I believe they have a good reputation but I've never had one myself.

 

You're probably right there Bertie, I'm not the tidiest worker.

This will be my first attempt at one of their kits so I hope it will be straight forwards, it's not like it's a Miniart full interior kit after all. 😜

 

1 hour ago, edjbartos said:

This looks interesting Wayne, I've never an M4 before so will follow along... Good luck with the build

 

Ed

 

Thanks Ed, me neither but there is certainly plenty of reference material out there so it should be fun.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Welcome aboard sir, always good to see another Firefly. 

[Robert Stuart]

Going to watch, I've heard good things about the Ryefield Shermans.

[diablo rsv]

I finally managed to find the time to make a start.

First impressions of the kit on the sprues are very good. It looks as though they have put a lot of effort into capturing the fine details and textures.

This is the bottom of the hull...

 

and this is the transmission housing.

 

 

Predictably construction starts with the assembly of the flat pack lower hull. The rear hull plate has its details added before fixing to the hull tub and this is where I hit my first quandary.

There is a choice of having the vertical fixed tow bar or the horizontal type with the leaf spring. Ryefield's instructions would have you fit the mountings for both styles and I have seen them both fitted on some internet builds but I imagine one or the other would be correct so I removed the moulded in attachment indicators for the vertical one and just fitted the horizontal ones.

 

 

 

I'm not sure if the smoke emitters were always fitted but I thought I would go with it,  that does mean however that the actual tow hook wouldn't really have the room to be installed. I guess being primarily a tank destroyer that the ability to tow wasn't that important.

 

 

 

At the other end the transmission housing assembly is straight forward but there is some gap filling to do. There are no casting symbols on the differential housings but I have seen images with and without them. I assume that if there is no casting symbols that that section of transmission housing and differential housing would have been cast as one piece.

Once assembled the whole housing can be fitted to the hull. A little bit of fettling is required to get it to fit correctly so dry fitting first is advised.

 

 

 

Next up will be the assembly of the bogies and the dreaded tracks.

 

Wayne 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jasper dog]

Good to see making a start on this one Wayne. Looks nicely detailed oob, at least as good as the Dragon kit if not better.

 

Atb

Darryl 

[Retired Bob]

It will be interesting to watch this build Wayne, I've built the Tasca Firefly Vc kit and since I have a couple more in the stash I never bought the RFM kit, it looks good.

[Six97s]

This thread might be useful: 

I have one of these to build, so will follow along.

 

[PlaStix]

Hi Wayne. Good to see more progress. And the detail does look to be really nice.

Kind regards,

Stix

[THEscaleSHOW]

On 23/03/2022 at 22:16, diablo rsv said:

I finally managed to find the time to make a start.

First impressions of the kit on the sprues are very good. It looks as though they have put a lot of effort into capturing the fine details and textures.

This is the bottom of the hull...

 

and this is the transmission housing.

 

 

Predictably construction starts with the assembly of the flat pack lower hull. The rear hull plate has its details added before fixing to the hull tub and this is where I hit my first quandary.

There is a choice of having the vertical fixed tow bar or the horizontal type with the leaf spring. Ryefield's instructions would have you fit the mountings for both styles and I have seen them both fitted on some internet builds but I imagine one or the other would be correct so I removed the moulded in attachment indicators for the vertical one and just fitted the horizontal ones.

 

 

 

I'm not sure if the smoke emitters were always fitted but I thought I would go with it,  that does mean however that the actual tow hook wouldn't really have the room to be installed. I guess being primarily a tank destroyer that the ability to tow wasn't that important.

 

 

 

At the other end the transmission housing assembly is straight forward but there is some gap filling to do. There are no casting symbols on the differential housings but I have seen images with and without them. I assume that if there is no casting symbols that that section of transmission housing and differential housing would have been cast as one piece.

Once assembled the whole housing can be fitted to the hull. A little bit of fettling is required to get it to fit correctly so dry fitting first is advised.

 

 

 

Next up will be the assembly of the bogies and the dreaded tracks.

 

Wayne 

 

 

 

 

 

Hello Wayne

The kit seems to be top - first class details 👍
The amount of parts is always a bit daunting, but in the end you get a perfect model.
Keep up the good work!

MD

[diablo rsv]

On 23/03/2022 at 22:09, Jasper dog said:

Looks nicely detailed oob, at least as good as the Dragon kit if not better.

 

Thanks Darryl,

I haven't seen the Dragon one up close, yet, but the detail on this kit is superb and so far the fit has been pretty good. Considering it's a much more recent kit than the Dragon it should really be better but that's not always the case it seems.

 

 

On 24/03/2022 at 18:07, Six97s said:

This thread might be useful: 

I have one of these to build, so will follow along.

 

 

Thanks Six, that's really handy . I'm sure Peter @Das Abteilung won't mind me quoting it below as it will save me having to ask him to keep repeating himself. 

 

Track type is T62.  Used almost exclusively by Chrysler on M4A4s in the latter half of production.  They are very easy to identify because of the 3 rivets not found on any other curved-cleat type.  However, as they wore out they could be replaced with any other type that was available.  Track link armour was widely used, with both Sherman and Churchill track used.

 

On which subject, Fireflies are rarely seen with no applique armour at all.  RFM don't provide any but the hull plates are easily made from plastic card: the turret plate is more difficult.  Sherman Minutia has dimensioned small drawings of the plates.  RFM copied the Bovington tank which, as a school tank, never got the applique.  They didn't always have the full set.  Remanufactured tanks were fitted with it, as were very late production outside the time window for this kit.

 

We preferred the leaf-spring towing attachment of our own design although it impeded engine access.  If that was fitted the factory type below the engine doors (not in the kit) was removed, usually leaving a scar.  The factory and vertical types were also incompatible with wading trunking whereas the leaf spring was not.  Yes it had to be removed to fit the trunking along with the rear stowage box but the brackets remained and the spring was easily re-mounted.  The vertical type is comparatively rarely seen and its brackets also had to be cut off to fit wading trunking.

 

Both types of hull MG blanking plug were used but the D17 syle is most common.

 

Travel locks were originally to the rear but moved to the left rear corner later, either to faciltate the wading trunking or give the driver greater head-our clearance.  You see tanks with the old central brackets still in place after the lock was moved.

 

I believe the L37 style travel lock was only introduced after M4A4 production had ceased and on the later designs of cupola with locks and torsion springs.  Fireflies can be seen with all of the other 3 options.  The brass ring Y30 is spurious as the interior of the cupola ring was much busier than that.  I suggest getting hold of the Resicast replacement item (Historex Agents have them) or wait for the recently-announced Panzer Art version if you plan on an open hatch.  Only about 1 in 4 British Shermans in NWE carried the 0.50 Browning anyway.

 

The turret spotlight was seen with and without the shroud but wasn't always mounted anyway.  The shroud was supposed to be the norm.  British crews seemed to find them less useful than US.

 

Some turrets suppled to Chrysler can be seen with a step around the base.  This was a result of machining poorly-cast castings rather than rejecting them.

 

If you're omitting the Houseboat brackets D24 along the hull sides then yes the glacis ones by the lift ring (D27/28) and the extended ones on the front trackguards (D14/15) are omitted also.  Few M4A4s were fitted for Houseboat as the idea was really dropped after N Africa.

 

While the M4A4 is the most homogenous of the Sherman variants, being uniquely (apart from the ill-fated A6) produced only by a single supplier, you still need to be careful as about 1,600 early models used in the US for training were later remanufactured and fitted with updated features before being supplied on to the UK.  Hence why you see Fireflies still with Direct Vision, like the survivor in the Brussels museum.  The RFM kit represents an A4 built roughly from about March 43 until about June 43.  As the M4A4s used in NWE and Italy were a mixed bunch across production it is fine for pretty much any VC in those theatres.  As a rule of thumb only A4s built after about April 43 were suitable for Firefly conversion because of certain features but the remanufactured ones also generally were as they mostly if not all had the necessary features.

 

Make sure you use the right sprocket rings.  A4s in this time period were all built with the "fancy Chrysler" sprocket shown in Step 5 - although they could be replaced in service with any design.  The types shown in Steps 6 and 7 are not factory fit options in this period.  The Step 7 type was fitted earlier but the Step 6 type never was.

 

There are 2 muzzle brake designs included.  AFAIK the MkIV gun for the Firefly was only ever fitted with the round-hole design and not with the square-hole type.

 

Production M4A4s don't seem to have been fitted with the wire periscope guards but some remanufactured tanks were, notably the 2 on the turret.  So don't use these.

 

 

Wayne

 

[diablo rsv]

I have made some progress with the running gear.

It's really good of Ryefield to have supplied three different styles of drive sprockets and return rollers however there is no indication as which ones are required for a particular vehicle. I guess it's up to the modeler to do some research on the subject they are modelling. 

 

 

 

For the drive sprocket I went with the fancier Chrysler one ( part numbers 3/9 ) as this seems most common on the VC. Finding clear contemporary reference photos of the return roller proved a little difficult so I went with the middle one ( part number 7 ) as this was the one fitted to an M4A4 in a walkaround that I found.

 

Ryefield would have you glue the two halves of the sprocket together before fixing to the hub which is already inserted into the drive assembly.

 

 

However that makes it very difficult to line up the pins on the hub with the holes inside the sprocket.

 

 

Its much easier to fix the hub to the sprocket before gluing the halves together.

 

 

The kit provides a workable suspension system. This makes assembly of the bogies a little fiddly as it involves holding a number of pieces in place and then gluing the two halves of the suspension unit around them.

 

 

Using some superglue to hold the springs into part number J29 makes life a lot easier.

The resulting join between the two halves isn't great but the application of some sprue goo soon sorted that out.

 

 

Once everything is tidied up the units were fitted to the hull.  I have to say I'm very impressed with them, even though I don't particularly need working suspension for those that do dioramas I imagine it would be a very useful feature.

The only detail that I can see that they have missed is a horizontal join line across the cast section of the unit, although they do show the line in their instruction drawings.

 

 

 

This is more noticeable in some photos of actual tanks than others and I did attempt to replicate it with some stretched sprue but it was proving easier said than done.

I may have to have another go later if time permits but now it's time to tackle those tracks.

 

Wayne

 

 

 

[Kingsman]

Apart from the first 4 months' production (all DV tanks anyway) M4A4s were all fitted - and only fitted - with the Chrysler-pattern sprocket ring you chose.  Good choice despite the instructions' ambiguity.  Of course they could be replaced in service with whatever was available.

 

Sherman Point To Note.  Every Sherman Chrysler ever built after those 1st 4 months of A4 production right up to the end of production used that "fancy" sprocket.  That means every M4A4, all but 300 M4 Composites, every 105mm M4 and M4A3, 85% of M4A3s and all M4A3E8s.  ALCO's 300 M4 Composites and Fisher's 500-odd M4A3s generally used the solid type.  For the 1st 4 months of A4s Chrysler were still using the M3 sprocket ring.

 

Chrysler used VVSS bogie castings almost exclusively from National Malleable Castings.  Theirs had that distinctive mould line across the face.  Other foundries put their mould joins in different places, often along the top edge.  Yes RFM missed this through poor research, like their sprocket confusion.  Surprising, as they got the foundry symbols right.

 

You haven't mentioned the idlers and I can't recall what RFM provide.  IIRC they provide both open spoke and pressed spoke types.  As you have used the final pattern track skids yours will most likely have the pressed spoke type introduced in May 43.  The final pattern skid and open spoke idler only overlapped for about 3 months from Feb-Apr 43, so that combination is possible on about 1,950 tanks.  Compared to about 2,500 with the pressed idler (monthly A4 production declined through 1943).

 

An essential external feature necessary for Firefly conversion was the M34A1 gun mount, introduced in Jan 43.  You might want to have a look at or download my M4A4 production variations chart in the WW2 discussion section.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Das Abteilung
Bad spelling!

[edjbartos]

That’s looking tremendous Wayne, looking like a well detailed kit, lots of good info too...

 

Ed

[PlaStix]

Hi Wayne. Really superb progress there and it's looking excellent! Lovely job!

Kind regards,

Stix

[diablo rsv]

On 29/03/2022 at 23:07, Das Abteilung said:

You haven't mentioned the idlers and I can't recall what RFM provide.  IIRC they provide both open spoke and pressed spoke types. 

 

 

On 29/03/2022 at 23:07, Das Abteilung said:

You might want to have a look at or download my M4A4 production variations chart in the WW2 discussion section.

 

Just the pressed ones in the kit, which is fine for my subject choice.

Thanks for the link to your chart, it will definitely come in handy so I've downloaded it.

[diablo rsv]

I can't say I was looking forwards to putting the tracks together, but then who does? As tracks go though, these weren't too bad. Just four sprues.

 

 

 

Once the parts were removed and cleaned up the provided assembly jig was used to make up a six link section of track.

 

 

First the inner part of the link is laid face down onto the jig.

 

 

These are then held in place with the top half of the jig.

 

 

The next part was a little fiddly. The end plates and pins, still on their section of sprue, have to be held in the correct position....

 

 

whilst a clamp is fitted to hold them in place.

 

 

Once both sides have been clamped in, the top half of the jig can be removed.

 

 

Using a small amount of adhesive the top half of each track link can be fixed. The problem here was that pins were forcing the halves apart so each one needed to be held until the glue had dried. This was going to slow the process down considerably so I found it best to use super glue. Unfortunately I only had the slow type available so it still took a little longer than I  had hoped.

 

 

Once I was happy that the glue was dry the jig could be removed. The sprue holding the pins in place could be cut off either before or after removing the jig.

I chose to do it after just in case the halves came apart. There are no spare end plate/ pins so I was paranoid about losing one.

 

 

 

I adapted the bottom section of one of the jigs so that it could be used to join the sections of track together.

 

 

The tracks were then test fitted to the model.

The idlers are fitted to a concentric cam so that the track tension can be adjusted.

 

 

I'm not sure how many links the actual tank used but Ryefield call for 83 in the instructions. This seemed a little tight to me. Because of the working suspension I found that the front road wheel was getting pulled up by the track slightly.

 

 

I added another link but to get the track tight the idler had to be adjusted back to its maximum and it still pulled up the front wheel but not as bad. I'm wondering if the springs in the suspension may be a little weak. Adding a little weight to the model seems to solve the problem but then I don't know if the model is sitting at the correct height. Once construction of the model is finished I will see if I need to add some permanent weight.

 

 

Working suspension maybe a nice idea for diorama builders but I'm not so sure it's really necessary. As for the tracks themselves, I think they look pretty good, maybe some metal ones would add the weight needed to get the correct the sit of the model but I really don't want to go down the after market route on this build.  Assembly wise Ryefield's system seemed to work well enough. Having no experience of building Shermans before I don't have anything to compare theirs to so it will be interesting to see in the other build's in the group how other manufacturers go about it. 

One thing that I did find invaluable was a decent pair of single sided sprue cutters, especially when it came to removing the sprue from the teeth on the endplates. Trying to clean those up afterwards would have been a pain but I find these cutters make such a clean cut that I didn't have to.

 

 

That's the most tedious part of the build out of the way. Hopefully the upper hull and turret will go together fairly quickly.

 

Wayne

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[edjbartos]

The tracks look great Wayne, as do the running gear, lovely detail...

 

Ed