28 Sqn AVRO 504K double trouble

[Terry1954]

Your perseverance is admirable Alan, and difficult to see any misalignment from here. The rigging as ever looks splendid.

 

On 7/23/2022 at 12:33 AM, hendie said:

I wish I could say I'll never build another biplane but those inconsiderate boogers went and flew a BE2e over in Ambala as well.  and guess wot?  No 1/48 kit of a BE2e to be found. 

 

Indeed, but looks like there could be one in 1/32 very soon.........

 

 

Same scale as a certain Pullman carriage if I'm not mistaken.

 

Just saying......

 

Terry

[perdu]

Nice work on a nasty Alan, hence forth all biplanery is nasty in my lexicon.

17 hours ago, hendie said:

Almost as simple but rather more mind-numbing and soul destroying was the job or removing whatever rigging remnants were left in the upper wing and breaking another batch of 0.3mm drills drilling another gazzillion tiny little holes in the upper wing. Eventually the holes were done and I could start feeding the spaghetti through the upper wing - this time taking Tony's advice and using a simple jig to locate both wings relative to each other.  I also had two through holes in the jig base so I could align and lock them in position using two 3mm brass rods.

 

This of course was noted, as the editor obviously intended, and gave me pause to think.

 

These drills, the ubiquitous Archimedean screw type we arrange the purchase of from various asian outlets in many and various sizes, not much cop are they?

 

Some of mine break because I am vibrating, trying to hold off a cyano fumes induced sneeze, others possibly just because it's Wednesday (Other excuses are available...)

 

Me myself has just purchased, and broken several already, the last box of .4 drills of that type I ever expect to hit the 'bay for.

 

I discovered I CAN get .4 in proper twist drills which are significantly more robust, life has become less stressful.

 

 

It's obvious I need more technological methods to use  these but a trawl round my tool drawer swiftly handled that problem.

 

 

And where you mention the difficulty of handllng the screen when putting it back on under the cabane section, I bought this pencil.

 

 

Which gives me a low tack solution to placing stuff where I need it, purchased after making the mistake of buying these things which are The Evil Playmates Of The Devil, if you had easy, small part handling as a desirable outcome.

 

 

do not make the mistake of allowing the little adhesive bulb at the end of to touch any part of your model.

 

No, not even the model.

 

DO NOT ALLOW THE LITTLE BULBS TO TOUCH ANYTHING ON THE PLANET!

 

But the 504, honest injun Alan I love it mate.

[Brandy]

For drill bits I use .3mm jobber bits. I have yet to break one, other than one which somehow bent!

Google "jobber drill bits" and you will find them. Much better than than the circuit board bits which, as you've noticed, snap as soon as you breathe on them.

 

As for "a nasty"....I'm not going to comment.

 

But you owe me a pint!

 

Ian 

[perdu]

Not speaking for Alan of course Ian but as we both use proper drills now I am happy to buy you the first pint at Telford.

[perdu]

4 hours ago, Terry1954 said:

Your perseverance is admirable Alan, and difficult to see any misalignment from here. The rigging as ever looks splendid.

 

 

Indeed, but looks like there could be one in 1/32 very soon.........

 

 

Same scale as a certain Pullman carriage if I'm not mistaken.

 

Just saying......

 

Terry

This might be an unwelcome aside but I would love to see how the Hendie-Eye sees this as a print-it-yerself prospect

[Bandsaw Steve]

Now this may seem a bit harsh but frankly I’m enjoying watching Hendie struggle with all this. It’s obvious that his scratchbuilt Avro 504 is about 10 times  (maybe a hundred times?) better than mine, but at least he had to fight to get that result. If he’d done it effortlessly I would have cried. 
 

 

[hendie]

On 8/28/2022 at 4:44 PM, TheBaron said:

Perseverance and fortitude of the highest order Alan.

 

That last update contained more incident than mortal souls would care to contemplate, let alone read about. You must feel righteously pleased to have pushed through to such a sparkling result.

 

All power to you! ✊

 

oh it gets better Tony. Sometimes you just can't beat stupid, read on...

 

On 8/28/2022 at 4:44 PM, giemme said:

Great job in beating this into submission, Alan!    And all that rigging...  

 

Ciao 

 

you ain't seen nothin' yet Giorgio. More rigging. More stuff ups. More ehrrr rigging.

 

On 8/28/2022 at 7:50 PM, mark.au said:

I’m having to view this on my phone so the pics aren’t big enough to really see the detail but the prose is encouraging.  I’m really glad you’re on this again, and in such positive fashion.
 

I’m about to embark on a rigging exercise myself, your piece here will be much help.
 

 

 

Oh Lordy, whatever you do Mark, don't follow my lead - it'll end in tears

 

On 8/29/2022 at 1:17 AM, Fritag said:

Ok so.  I’ve overlooked all of the hendie-typical entertaining self deprecation and am left with the hendie-typical fantstic workmanship.

 

Just back from a week of seeing stunning scenery in the Shetlands and segue immediately into seeing stunning modelling……

 

nowhere near as stunning as some canopies I could mention Steve.   I think I'm on the home run now though, barring any stupidity on my part.  Dammit!

 

On 8/29/2022 at 1:47 AM, Brandy said:

Well saved! She looks more than presentable to me, but I would tend to agree about the lower wing alignment. Maybe both wings slightly off making it worse. 

The trials and tribulations of building biplanes are more than made up for (in my humble opinion) by the finished result!

 

Ian

 

After studying the model for some time Ian I can safely say that the wing misalignment is purely down to my cack handedness and nothing else.  I should have paid more attention when doing the rigging the second time around. Sadly, there isn't going to be a third time. (I have a VW waiting in the wings)

 

On 8/29/2022 at 5:56 AM, Terry1954 said:

Your perseverance is admirable Alan, and difficult to see any misalignment from here. The rigging as ever looks splendid.

 

 

Indeed, but looks like there could be one in 1/32 very soon.........

 

<snip>

 

Same scale as a certain Pullman carriage if I'm not mistaken.

 

Just saying......

 

Terry

 

Thanks Terry. You ar eindeed correct in that the Pullman is 1/32, and so is that darned Fly Wessex. However, 1/48 is my chosen scale for aircraft and I only have this to finish and this and I'll be short a BE2e for my collection.  A 1/32 would throw out my whole display.

I am seriously considering ordering a Roden BE2c and converting it, printing the wings if need be, but I think I need a little rest from biplanes as soon as I've finished this. 

 

On 8/29/2022 at 9:15 AM, perdu said:

Nice work on a nasty Alan, hence forth all biplanery is nasty in my lexicon.

 

This of course was noted, as the editor obviously intended, and gave me pause to think.

 

These drills, the ubiquitous Archimedean screw type we arrange the purchase of from various asian outlets in many and various sizes, not much cop are they?

 

Some of mine break because I am vibrating, trying to hold off a cyano fumes induced sneeze, others possibly just because it's Wednesday (Other excuses are available...)

 

Me myself has just purchased, and broken several already, the last box of .4 drills of that type I ever expect to hit the 'bay for.

 

I discovered I CAN get .4 in proper twist drills which are significantly more robust, life has become less stressful.

 

<snip>

 

It's obvious I need more technological methods to use  these but a trawl round my tool drawer swiftly handled that problem.

 

<snip>

And where you mention the difficulty of handllng the screen when putting it back on under the cabane section, I bought this pencil.

 

<snip>

 

Which gives me a low tack solution to placing stuff where I need it, purchased after making the mistake of buying these things which are The Evil Playmates Of The Devil, if you had easy, small part handling as a desirable outcome.

 

<snip>

 

do not make the mistake of allowing the little adhesive bulb at the end of to touch any part of your model.

 

No, not even the model.

 

DO NOT ALLOW THE LITTLE BULBS TO TOUCH ANYTHING ON THE PLANET!

 

But the 504, honest injun Alan I love it mate.

 

thanks Bill, it looks like I'll need to get me some of those sticky sticks for sticking things on with.

 

On 8/29/2022 at 9:58 AM, perdu said:

This might be an unwelcome aside but I would love to see how the Hendie-Eye sees this as a print-it-yerself prospect

 

Don't think it hasn't been considered Bill.  I think the Roden BE2c with home brew wings is the way to go.  I printed a Wapiti from scratch and now someone is releasing a 1/48 Wapiti. I've printed a 504 from scratch and now someone is working on a 1/48 504.  I'm not going down that route with the BE2e (famous last words)

 

On 8/29/2022 at 10:01 AM, Bandsaw Steve said:

Now this may seem a bit harsh but frankly I’m enjoying watching Hendie struggle with all this. It’s obvious that his scratchbuilt Avro 504 is about 10 times  (maybe a hundred times?) better than mine, but at least he had to fight to get that result. If he’d done it effortlessly I would have cried. 

 

Steve, over the years I have come to expect nothing less from you.   I'll return the favor on that ship build when it ever starts.

 

Strangely the mojo has made a surprising return on the 504 now that I've got past the wing rigging fiasco. Well, most of the wing rigging.  Would you believe there is still some rigging to be done?  However, the remaining wing rigging is also connected to the skid and with it's location (front of skid to front of lower wing) it is a prime candidate for being torn off during SOP cack handling. With this in mind I thought it better to attack any other greeblies and leave that particular rigging to the very last. 

A quick glance at references and I remembered I still had to add the underwing hoola hoops... and the pulley's. Oh, and the rigging.  0.5mm brass rod was bent around some suitably sized round object (can't remember what it was now) and with some careful snipping the skid hoops magically appeared.  That was after it took me ages to very, very carefully drill the locating holes as they are located directly underneath the strut locations. I was quite pleased with how they fitted and caught up in this new found mojo I immediately flooded the locating points with superglue, and minutes later the pulleys were fitted as well, again using superglue.  If you look hard enough you can also see that I've started fitting the aileron horns - from some PE set I bought a while back.

 

 

The tail feathers were refitted once again - I think I've broken them off on at least 4 occasions so far but I think they're decided to play along this time. That left the tailplane struts as the next fun job.  The smallest brass rod I had was 0.5mm which looked just a little on the large side so I made struts frmo 0.4mm stainless wire. The fuselage was drilled with 0.5mm drills as was the underside of the tailplane.  Butt joints just weren't going to hold up here so there was no option but to drill and try and get at leasgt some of the strut into the holes, which of course meant bending each end of the strut accordingly.

 

 

Glued and painted and as straight as I can get a piece of 0.4mm wire.

 

 

The aileron horns and mounts were painted black, very badly.  The horns were fitted by leaving a tang on the PE part and scraping a small groove in the aileron then drilling a 0.3mm hole for the PE tang. Quite uneventful really.  If I had paid atttention to my references I would have noticed that the 1:1 horns were quite beefy and I could have made the whole job a lot easier by printing the horns as part of the flying surface. I could have, but I didn't.   The close up shows how bad my detail painting is.  I need new brushes but the real culprit is the old Henderson tremor which really only appears on occasions when I really need it not to. Go figure.

 

 

With all the tailplanery hardware complete it was time for the software... EZ Line.  I was not going to take the chance with fishing line for this job.  I had a wonderful time feeding a small length of 0.2mm wire through the fuselage so I could cyano some EZ line to it and pull it back through the rigging ports. 4 times.  Once the lines were through I cyano'd the EZ line to the fairleads on the tail surfaces leaving enough to connect to the elevator horns later.  This time I did have enough foresight to actually print the fairleads as part of the tail plane though apparently I wasn't quite bright enough to have masked and painted the elevators at the same time as painting everything else on this stringbag.  I could have sworn I had a pair already painted and ready to go, but find them I could not.

A pair of primed elevators was all I could find in my jumble of a workarea. Those should make an appearance in the next exciting episode.

 

 

Tail surface all sorted and I was feeling well pleased with myself. The worst of the rigging was over, greeblies and other bits were being added and the mojo was rising.  The skid hoops were painted then smeared with oils pretending to be wooden. Not bad.  Time to make a start on rigging the ailerons... two wires to each pulley attaching to some other pulleys on the underside of the fuselage - EZ Line again. Nice easy job.

The first wire went on without a struggle and I sat back to delight in the craftsmanship and the fact this whole nightmare was coming to an end... and then... I looked.  I actually looked at it. Not just looked at it, but looked at it.   

 

The word "idiot" came to mind along with a few others.

Can anyone spot my deliberate error here?

 

 

What was I saying earlier about you can't beat stupid?  When I put my mind to it I can be a world class idiot - I've practised for years.  Eejit of renown. Numptie per excellence that's me.   Spotted it yet have we?

 

Oh yes. Some absolute gold medal winning numptie superglued the pulleys and the skid hoops and the rigging on without putting the roundels on the #!*%##%! wing first. 

Deep breath... With a smile on my face and a song in my heart I joyfully pried/snapped/broke the pulley wheels off and cleaned up the aftermath.  The hoola hoops were staying. I'd made such a good job of fixing them in the first place I was absolutely certain I would cause catastrophic damage to the wing if I tried to remove them.  That meant I could now practise the art of decal slicing.

Decal.  Check

Sharp blade.  Check

Take aim.  Check.

Double check.  Check

Double guess yourself.  Check.

Soddit. Guesstimate, pick a point and just slice the decal.  Are you sure? SLICE IT!

Okay then.

 

 

It could have been a lot worse I'm sure but the gods must have been wreaking havoc with some other poor soul that evening and I think I got away with it. 

Decals are now soaking in microwotsit stuff and will get a few touch ups and some gloss coat tomorrow.

 

 

Geez, wasn't that exciting?  and don't look at the skewy wing up there in that shot. It's an optical illusion I tells ya.

 

I can almost see the light at the end of the tunnel. Ah, the tunnel.  It's been a long tunnel. A long dark, slimey, smelly, wet tunnel.

Anyhoos, while grappling around in the sludge I remembered I still have one decal to add - that of the rudder.  I had drawn these up in AutoCAD some time ago and it seemed an appropriate time to actually print the decal now. 

Why oh why do simple things never go simply?  

Everything looked as it should in AutoCAD and it would have been a simple operation just to print directly frmo there but my version of AutoCAD is on my work laptop and out ITwits have unilaterally decided that we can't install anything on a work laptop without going through a laborious give up your firstborn process. So as I couldn't connect to my home printer I had to print a PDF and email it to my home laptop. Easy enough you'd think?

You'd be wrong. Very wrong.

I opened the PDFto be met with a scrawly mess. What the...?  Okay try again. Change PDF settings and see what happens.

I changed PDF settings. I changed AutoCAD settings and just could not get a decent looking PDF. It started with looking like smeared crayon lines and artifacts all over the rudder. AFter about 3 hours (I kid you not) I got this far.  It almost worked except the solid colors are all streaky, and some of the hatch around the 7 & 8 doesn't want to play nice.

 

More time was spent inventing new words before I came across the culprit - in Adobe Acrobat the "smooth lines" option was checked. Uncheck it and all the problems go away.  If only I had remembered that from the last time I spent hours trying to get a decent PDF from AutoCAD.  Some things in life are too short... like my memory.

So... PDF loaded and printer fired up and here's what we got. 

 

 

Ignore the RGB values.  I used those when I first started messing around and those values have since changed and I didn't update the text.  All in all I think the color match to the decal sheet is close enough.  Decals on tomorrow then.

 

A somewhat frustrating couple of days but I think the worst is behind me now, or it's very good at concealment and just waiting to pop its ugly head up again tomorrow. We shall see.

Almost there. Almost there, and despite the unnecessary flaws and defects I think it's going to look very much like a 504 when it finally goes in the cabinet.. at the back.  I'm kicking myself and very disappointed I didn't pay more attention at the rigging phase but we are where we are and I'm not going to let it get to me. Not every build can be a masterpiece. Not in this house anyway.

Since we are getting so close to wrapping this one up I have made a tentative start on the next project - the VW.  It's going to be almost OOB Giorgio.  Except for the 3D printing, the destruction, the scratchbuilding, and the fact that I'll be throwing most of the kit parts away. Okay then. 20% 10% out of the box, maybe.  More to come on that soon.

 

Enjoy the weekend folks. And remember... decals before greeblies!

 

 

 

 

 

[mark.au]

4 hours ago, hendie said:

Oh Lordy, whatever you do Mark, don't follow my lead - it'll end in tears

Ha! I’d be ecstatic if my rigging, and for that matter my modelling results in general turn out like yours Alan.  Luckily, I paint my roundels so far less opportunity to forget them.  I must admit I didn’t notice until you pointed it out… maybe I could forget them after all?

 

Great progress nonetheless, the 504 won’t look out of place at the front of the cabinet at all.

[giemme]

I tell you Alan, not only those underwing decals look whole and not sliced: they could pass for painted on, unless you really magnify your pics! (Which I did, but still struggled to detect any flaws) 

 

8 hours ago, hendie said:

Since we are getting so close to wrapping this one up I have made a tentative start on the next project - the VW.  It's going to be almost OOB Giorgio.  Except for the 3D printing, the destruction, the scratchbuilding, and the fact that I'll be throwing most of the kit parts away. Okay then. 20% 10% out of the box, maybe.

 

Looking forward to that, Alan!

 

ciao 

[hendie]

On 9/2/2022 at 11:55 PM, mark.au said:

Ha! I’d be ecstatic if my rigging, and for that matter my modelling results in general turn out like yours Alan.  Luckily, I paint my roundels so far less opportunity to forget them.  I must admit I didn’t notice until you pointed it out… maybe I could forget them after all?

 

Great progress nonetheless, the 504 won’t look out of place at the front of the cabinet at all.

 

It's in the cabinet, and at the front - but only because the shelf is only deep enough for one a/c at a time.

 

On 9/3/2022 at 4:01 AM, giemme said:

I tell you Alan, not only those underwing decals look whole and not sliced: they could pass for painted on, unless you really magnify your pics! (Which I did, but still struggled to detect any flaws) 

 

 

Looking forward to that, Alan!

 

ciao 

 

VW started Giorgio, and more to the point, the 504 is FINISHED!  Oh deary me. AFter taking all these shots I just realized there is still another piece of rigging... stay tuned to the end to see how stupid I can be (again)

 

Finished it may be but the darn thing put up a fight right to the bitter end.   

Now where do I start?  Oh, rigging. Let's start with yet more rigging.

The ailerons were cyano'd in place with the PE horns just begging to be knocked off but I had the finish line in my sights now so I gritted my teeth and soldiered on. Rigging the ailerons was straightforward if a bit finicky, if like me you like to actually use those tiny little eyelets in the PE horns. Getting one piece of EZ line through the eyelet was hard enough and feeding the second line through was just the icing on the cake.  Yes I was stupid enough to try and replicate the double wires.  My OCD has a lot to answer for.

 

 

Same drill up topside

 

 

then down through the ailerons

 

 

and I seem to have forgotten to take a shop of everything joined up, though I did finally get around to adding those skid-to-wing wires

 

 

which you really can't see when she's the right way up. oh well.

 

 

Correction, I did take one rather poor shot but at least you can see those twin wires running from the aileron to the control horn and from there, forward to the pulley.

 

 

Jumping round between job I remembered to fit the second windscreen

 

 

In the background, off screen I had managed to paint up those elevators that had evaded me for so long.  Guess what? They needed rigging too.  8 lines from the fuselage, 4 port & 4 starboard with two on each side going to the tailplane upper fiarlead and two lines going through the bottom fairlead and from there to their respective control horns, and from there a single line through the elevator

 

 

I enjoyed it so much you get two pics of that effort.

 

 

one of the last greeblies to be captured was the auxiliary tank on top of the wing.  Hey, I'm on a roll here.

 

 

I then remembered that there were two small oil pipes(?) just on front of the windscreen. I was daft enough to try and fit those too.  Iff you zoom in you can just about make them out - 0.2mm wire I think.

 

 

while in the process of fitting those two small pipes there was a minor malfunction...

 

 

Being the positive sort of chap I am I said :oh sweet - that makes the axle easier to paint now.  The damage wasn't too bad and was easily repaired with some transparent resin fixing everything back in it's rightful place... and I still forgot to paint the axle.

 

Almost at the end... must... carry... on...

 

The homebrew decals were slapped on to the rudder and given a gloss coat and a flat coat after I touched in the edges.  Maybe not professional standard but it looks fine and it got the job done.

 

 

Would you believe that I had forgotten some rigging?  Oh heck yeah I had.

I had forgotten some of the rigging on the main skid - the lines that run from front and back, attaching to the (still unpainted) axle. While I was there I discovered that there were also a couple of lines running the the rear of the skid to the underside of the wing, so in for a penny, they got added too.

 

 

The rudder was added.

 

 

at a slight angle as always.

 

 

 

At this point, I stupidly thought I was finished and took a bunch of shots as evidence for the trial. Those shots will follow after a short intermission while I pluck up the courage to admit yet another idiotic omission in the catalogue of hendioms.

 

The propellor wa an easy job. Sticking it on I mean. Not the propeller itself as that was a bee-a-tch of a job.

 

 

 

 

See!  I did paint the axle eventually.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why is it not finished?  Well it was only as I was posting this thread I suddenly realized that I had completely missed RIGGING THE RUDDY RUDDER!      That's just another class of stoopid.  

 

I guess it will now be coming back out of the cabinet for another visit downstairs to add the missing bits and bobs.  Nearly there though... nearly there.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mark.au]

Just WOW (whether I refer to the [almost] finished 504 or the rather surprising fact that I spotted the rigging was missing from the rudder I shall leave to you).

[hendie]

27 minutes ago, mark.au said:

Just WOW (whether I refer to the [almost] finished 504 or the rather surprising fact that I spotted the rigging was missing from the rudder I shall leave to you).

 

As long as you didn't fall off your chair, all is good Mark.

 

 

There! 

 

 

Done.  Shortest RFI ever 

 

Boy am I glad this is over.

 

It is over, isn't it?  Tell me it's over..  please

 

 

 

[Fritag]

Ridiculously good.  Any entertaining but misleading protestations of lack of excellence duly ignored.  Somehow both inspiring and yet a deterrent to ever attempting a biplane….

 

 

[Hamden]

 

What an absolutely stunning build, attention to the smallest detail is second to none and I have great difficulty remembering that this is NOT a main stream kit!

I would be happy if my attempts at modelling were a quarter as good as yours!

 

  Stay safe            Roger 

[giemme]

1 hour ago, Fritag said:

Ridiculously good.  Any entertaining but misleading protestations of lack of excellence duly ignored.  Somehow both inspiring and yet a deterrent to ever attempting a biplane….

 

 

Agreed 100% (especially on the last part, but then again I did buy a biplane, and it's a Fly kit....)

 

Most excellent job, Alan!    

 

Ciao

[Terry1954]

Superb job on the 504 Alan, and a very helpful catch for the pilot at the end, by way of rigging the rudder!

 

Thoroughly enjoyed the build. Off to find that VW Camper now!

 

Terry

[perdu]

I just love it, a beautiful build.

 

Almost a pity it is a bi-plane and has just deterred me from ever tackling another, so damned scary I am just too old to waste my time in places I am not worthy of.

 

Accolades all round dear chap, wow.

[John_W]

That is superb, Rigging is one of those dark arts that I try and avoid, along with Swedish Splinter Camo and NMF...

[Galligraphics]

More rigging than the voting for the Eurovision Song Contest… 

An absolutely beautiful job! 

[mark.au]

I can only echo the foregoing compliments and congratulations.  I’m now attempting a biplane in part because of your 504.  In due course you will become either my inspiration or my scapegoat.

Edited September 5, 2022 by mark.au

[perdu]

4 hours ago, mark.au said:

I can only echo the foregoing compliments and congratulations.  I’m now attempting a biplane in part because of your 504.  In due course you will become either my inspiration or my scapegoat.

I blame him.

[Brandy]

Very nicely done Alan. Despite all its fighting you managed to tame the beast and have a lovely 504 to show for your efforts.

I have to say that double lines to elevators and ailerons would be unusual, usually the two separate lines through the ailerons are only as far as the control horn, then one line from there. Double lines to the rudder is normal. (I don't do it in 1:72 though!)

 

Either way, it looks fabulous. 

Shame you've put our Bill off though!

 

Ian

 

 

[Marklo]

Fantastic work, I won’t even mention my bodged Smer 504  

 

Roden do a Be12 which I think has the same wing as the BE2e so maybe a kit bash ?.

[TheBaron]

20 hours ago, hendie said:

Getting one piece of EZ line through the eyelet was hard enough

Isn't there something involving camels about that in the Bible?

 

Stop giving yourself such a hard time Alan - that maze of rigging is magnificent even without realizing the terrific amount of labour it took. 28 Sqn should make you their mascot and parade you on ceremonial occasions (leash optional).

 

Congratulations sir. A rollercoaster right up to the last photo.

 

 

 

 

[Fritag]

1 hour ago, TheBaron said:

28 Sqn should make you their mascot and parade you on ceremonial occasions (leash optional).

 

Thanks for that visual earworm that I’ve now got to banish Tony….