28 Sqn AVRO 504K double trouble

[Teuchter]

Hendie, lots of intricate work there, I know how time consuming that sort of thing is in 2-D CAD.

I am afraid those blade roots in the final image jumped out at me, I hope they do look ok once printed, but there seems to be too much of a kink in them for a wood carving.

I am confident you will get it right in the end.

Don

 

[Galligraphics]

On 6/5/2022 at 12:17 AM, hendie said:

beginnings have began to be begun

Reminds me of a letter I once had from a solicitor in reply to an enquiry about the latest position of a property transaction. Four words - “Movement is in progression” …

[hendie]

On 6/5/2022 at 6:30 PM, The Spadgent said:

Brilliant stuff. I hate lofting, I always just end up modelling, raw and crazy but I know I shouldn’t. You can re-normalise splines in max to have the same amount of knots and set the start to whichever you want soo masking a loft process easier but I still hate it so there. You’re making jolly god use of it so I’ll shut my cake hole. 🍰🕳.

 

Dribble! 😉

 

 

It would have been a lot easier in Max, that's for sure Johnny.

Since you're dribbling...

 

On 6/5/2022 at 2:28 PM, Steve Coombs said:

This is a magnificent piece of work.

A different scale, admittedly, but I wonder what Wingnut Wings could have made of the Avro 504, had it survived? The Friedrichshafen raiders, Home Defence, training, service in dozens of air arms, and a further lease of life as banner towers and barnstormers. Options galore! Alas, not to be.

 

It's a shame WNW decided not to play anymore.  I never had any of their kits but the quality of molding appeared top notch - and there's absolutely no reason other manufacturers could not match that quality.

 

On 6/6/2022 at 2:57 AM, Teuchter said:

Hendie, lots of intricate work there, I know how time consuming that sort of thing is in 2-D CAD.

I am afraid those blade roots in the final image jumped out at me, I hope they do look ok once printed, but there seems to be too much of a kink in them for a wood carving.

I am confident you will get it right in the end.

Don

 

 

I think the "kink" is a visual anomaly due to the profile. Looking head on to the blade it matches the drawing perfectly - but the drawing could well be completely wrong. I've yet to come across a propeller shaped like that one on the plans.

 

On 6/6/2022 at 3:36 AM, Galligraphics said:

Reminds me of a letter I once had from a solicitor in reply to an enquiry about the latest position of a property transaction. Four words - “Movement is in progression” …

 

heh heh.

 

On 6/1/2022 at 1:47 AM, Fritag said:

Hope the print went well Alan; looks darn tootin good in the virtual world.

 

Well since you asked...

 

After all the recent home turbulence and what with life, work, and whatever else got thrown at me, I managed to descend into the deepest depths of the basement - this time purely for my own purposes.  I've had those prints lying about for over a week now and it was time to have a look see.

A trial fit (pre-primer) was promising as it showed the internal framing fitted nicely inside the fuselage although the same dry fit proved that it's going to be a pig to get in there and fixed in the correct position when the time comes to assemble the assorted bits. 

 

 

Tail feathers were easy - simply pinned through the fuselage.  They're sitting all cattywampus at the moment as they're loose.   They're also very thin - you can see the holes I drilled for the pins showing through - and those holes were only 0.5mm diameter.

 

 

Here are the two instrument panels.  The details have come out quite nicely and I think those will look good after coloring in despite my cack handed brush painting technique

 

 

If you squint really hard you can just about make them out in there.

 

 

Seat and fuel tank.  The seat looks a bit sparse so I think I'll have a go at modeling some cushions on there later.

 

 

Control columns. This photo is a bit deceiving - although they look a bit chunky here, in the flesh they are very, very fine.

 

 

Pulleys for the aileron control wires.  If I remember right, they are about 1.5mm in diameter. I'm amazed (and very pleased) that those holes printed.

 

 

Tail skid.  It feels sturdy enough so I think I may get away without having to reinforce it with brass.

 

 

The undercarriage suspension unit and inner wheel hub. Again, pleasantly surprised that this worked out. The brass is a bit oversized at 0.8mm but I felt that 0.5mm rod just wasn't up to the task, and once it's all painted black I doubt anyone will notice.

 

 

Upper wing, center section with the aileron control wire pulleys at the front

 

 

Floor structure with a seat and a control column reasting in place. I managed to drop it and break a bit of while spraying so it's just as well these are all test prints. The main take away from all this is that things appear to fit together, and with luck shall all fit inside the fuselage when the time comes.

 

 

Fuselage with engine cowl fitted and a cabane strut dropped in for good measure.

 

 

another view from opposite side

 

 

The engine came out very nicely as a one piece print.  The main question however is...

 

 

Does it fit?  The answer is yes although a bit of tweaking and a few swipes with the file was required.  However, that now raises another question...

 

 

Does the cowl fit over the engine and does it meet up with the fuselage?

A whopping yes is the answer.  The cowl is very flimsy though.  I think it ended up being around 0.4 or 0.5mm thick in order to get everything to fit, but it works which is the main thing.

 

 

 

I have another bunch of prints running today and overnight. - another fuselage (tweaked) and some wings n bits

I doubt I will get time to post anything again as I am heading off the homeland in the middle of next week and I have a bunch of stuff to get out of the way before I depart. If I do get any time tomorrow I'll probably just clean up and prime to new batch of test prints - at least it's one way of getting some use out of the alclad primers I have instead of just throwing them in the bin.

 

until next time folks.

 

 

 

[Fritag]

Amazing.  So good that it’s altogether too much to take in pre-coffee on a Sunday morning…

 

I’m gonna have edit this post and/or post again later when I’ve got my head around the quality and quantity of all these prints and found some suitable words! 

[Terry1954]

28 minutes ago, Fritag said:

Amazing.  So good that it’s altogether too much to take in pre-coffee on a Sunday morning…

 

I’m gonna have edit this post and/or post again later when I’ve got my head around the quality and quantity of all these prints and found some suitable words! 

 

Echo Steve's words completely, although I shan't be editing this post, as I don't think I'll find any further words in the near future, as I am post coffee now (my second actually)! This is all so gobsmacking!

 

I do want to add a special mention (having just caught up on a few weeks backlog) regarding all that work on the propeller blade profiling. Simply awesome, and such attention to such fine detail. 

 

You bring such hope to me when I eventually get around to using this tech do do something! My deliberations are logistical not hesitation on my part - I am vacating a shared hobby space to allow Mrs T to have a complete Art studio, but my destination (a converted integral garage) is not yet built, thus modelling space is very limited right now. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it!

 

Terry

[Brandy]

Those prints look fantastic Alan. That's quite an achievement getting the engine to fit the cowling!

Don't forget to thin the prop trailing edge!

 

Have fun "back home"

 

Ian

[giemme]

I'm so glad you were able to nearly print all those fine details! Impressive!   

 

Ciao

[TheBaron]

I'm pretty sure this has gone from 'engrossing' to 'exquisite' since the last update Alan: details like the stitching and cabane strut really anchor this in reality as a thing of presence and ingenuity. Under colour it'sgoing to look bloody amazing!

 

I've actually bookmarked a couple of your pages here as - odd as it might sound - I think some of your surface techniques will help later on the Wasp.

 

Looking forward to the next instalment already. 😁

[mark.au]

Exquisite detail indeed.  Are any of the major parts primed?  The finish on the fuselage, cowling, etc. looks so “finished” and ready for final paint.  

[hendie]

11 hours ago, mark.au said:

Are any of the major parts primed?

 

everything in that last post apart from the first two shots is primed Mark. The resin in it's cured state doesn't photograph well due a slight translucency and the camera finds it difficult to focus. It's a good excuse to use up the last stocks of my Alclad primers which otherwise would have gone in the bin.

 

 

 

[hendie]

I suppose it's about time I provided an update on this thread if only to prove that I'm (mostly) still around and have returned from the homeland.  

 

I've been back for a few days now and to be honest, the mojo isn't quite flowing yet but I forced myself into doing something to make sure it hadn't departed fully without letting me know.  Those mojo's can be so touchy at times.

As printing progresses it was time to start addressing al those small items left over, and in this case I had almost completely forgotten about the skid.  I had modeled a basic skid early on in the process and had set that aside, thinking that I would be able to source something that would participate in holding it in place at the requisite position relative to the fuselage.  What a stupid thought!  No-one appears to provide aerofoil section in anything less than 1/4 inch chord. Bummer.  I searched and searched but nowt was out there that I could find.  I ended up ordering some Albion Alloys tubing in the hope that I may be able to turn some of that into an aerofoil shape.  That won't be here for a little while so in the meantime I added some digital bits to the current skid and printing off a coup eof those to see how it turns out.  The strut supports are only around 20mm or so long so I'm hopefull they may be strong enough to hold position though I'll have to be careful with the rigging.

 

 

adn if all goes well, it should snug in nicely as shown here.  The connections to the fuselage are not accurate by any means but I'm going for robustness given that the supports are only just over 1mm from front to rear.

 

Prior to my toddling off I had a number of parts all ready and cleaned up so it was time to throw some primer on them. That fuselage on the right is in Alclad primer which I'm keeping as a test bed, and a just in case backup.

 

 

Wheel bits got primed.  The dark grey is SMS primer which I am trying out for the first time. I can tell you it sprays nicely and lays down well, but durability.... I guess I'll find out soon enough.

 

 

Seats and other bits too.  Surprisingly the propellor turned out not too shabby at all.  It's not the greatest propellor in the world and not as good as my Wapiti version, but for this... it'll do. After the primer it received a coat of Testors Wood, followed by some burnt sienna oil.  

I need to invest in some decent oil paints. I got a cheap set initially just to see how they worked and if I would use them. Apparently they do and I do, but I think a decent set would be an improvement and this time maybe all the tops won't leak and let the oil spill out.

 

 

The internal woody stuff got some wood and some oils and that's all set aside to dry before the detail painting can begin. (For "detail" read adding splodges of color with a shaky hand)

 

 

Both fuselii primed and ready to go.

 

 

 

If you remember back up in that first photo I had a full set of wings laying there - well I decided I wasn't over the moon with them and thought I'd have another go to see if I could get them any better (there were a few striations and a few ridges visible).

I could probably have cleaned them up but printing another set seemed an easier option.

The wings above were printed at 0.015mm layer height and I had kept the exposure time at the standard 2.5s.   This time I opted for a layer height of 0.05mm with the same exposure time.  The result...?

A bit embarrasing.  T'would have been fine had I been building an early wing warping something or other, but a 504?  Not so much.

 

 

The wings are that thin towards the trailing edge they really need that prolonged cure time to hold their shape during printing.  No surprise that another set is printing back at the original settings as I type.

 

While I was perusing through my extensive collection of the only 28 Sqn 504 photo that exists I came across something that I had not noticed before.  The metal access panels to the rear of the engine area are not black as I had somehow presumed.

As best I can tell, the hue/tone is very similar to the blue of the tail flash.

(I've adjust the photo here to make the differences more prominent.)

 

 

Would you agree that the access panels look very similar in 'color' to the fin flash?  That then begs the question: What color are the rings on the engine cowling?  (I'm fairly convinced that they are rings, and not a spiral). They are definitely a different color from the access panels. Then the cowling itself - white?  Leaving natural metal out in the open wouldn't be good so I'll hazard a guess on white there.

Didn't someone mention in the Wapiti thread that 28's official color code was black? Those rings don't appear to be black, or do they?

I assume the 28 Sqn groundcrew didn't have access to a wide range of colors out there in Ambala back in 1919, but they would probably have had the standard PC10, and red, white, and blue for national markings. - Remember, this was a Squadron hack, and groundcrew get bored very easily, so... Would blue access panels, and red rings make sense?  I think the wheel covers are also blue.

I know this is all a can of worms but any input is greatly appreciated as it's always good to hear other views on something like this.(all the while knowing there can be no definitive answer)

 

 

 

[perdu]

The cowling rings could be red, like the centre spot in the roundel.

 

I'm not ready to sit in judgement of the groundcrewmen tho'...

[hendie]

17 minutes ago, perdu said:

The cowling rings could be red, like the centre spot in the roundel.

 

Oops I was reading the tail colors wrong.  Reading from left to right in that photo the tail colors would be red, white, and blue at the forward edge.

That would make the access panel area blue(?) with red cowling rings?

Thanks Bill

[k5054nz]

Oustanding work Bill!

[giemme]

Great to see you back at this, Alan  I'm afraid I can't be of any help in color interpretation from and old B&W photo; all I would say is that I couldn't make any fair assumption from it, so if I were you I'd go with what makes more sense....

 

Ciao

[AdrianMF]

Can’t help with the photo colours but I can tell you that it looks like the best ever model 504! Gorgeous!

 

Regards,

Adrian

[Dave Slowbuild]

I agree with suggestions that the cowling could well be red and white stripes.

The panels behind, not so sure.  Might they be one of those grey shades that are common on British types of that period?  Blue panels and wheels are very plausible though.

 

It’s a bit like watching snooker in black and white.  But all part of the fun!
 

Dave

[Brandy]

1 hour ago, Dave Slowbuild said:

It’s a bit like watching snooker in black and white.  But all part of the fun!

"For those of you watching in black and white, the pink is behind the blue."

I can't help on the colours either, but red and white cowl rings is plausible. Not sure the access panels are anything different from the rest of the fuselage though.

Over to you, toss a coin. No-one can prove you wrong..(until it's finished of course, when someone will speak up!)

 

Ian

 

Sitting comfortably on the fence.

 

 

[perdu]

4 minutes ago, Brandy said:

Sitting comfortably on the fence.

Don't tell him about the nail just to the side of where he is squatting it's sure to expose his southern front when he drops down.

 

[Dave Slowbuild]

I went back to the start of the thread (to remind myself where in the world this machine was based) and saw the excerpt from Airfix mag in 1960.  The author of that also thought the cowling was red and white stripes, though in the diagram appears to have drawn one red stripe too many?

He thought the panels were the same colour as the fuselage, but they look lighter to me!  

[mark.au]

22 hours ago, hendie said:

That would make the access panel area blue(?) with red cowling rings?

Thanks Bill

This, at least in my opinion.

These are turning out to be beautiful little aeroplanes, and the paint will enhance them more so.  The red/white/blue at the front will look great.

 

[The Spadgent]

Gobsmackingly amazing in every tiny way! 🥹 it’s bringing a treat to one’s eyes. 😮

 the amount of detail is just off the scale and it all just fits. 👏👏👏

 as for the colours you could get some reds and blues off the colours mentioned and desaturate to see if they end up like the BW photo. ? Maybe worth a go. I do think Bill it’s right though. They do look to be red. 
 

Johnny.

[hendie]

On 7/3/2022 at 10:18 PM, k5054nz said:

Oustanding work Bill!

 

he does have great powers of deduction doesn't he? or were you confusing me with Bill, in which case I'll take that as a compliment

 

On 7/4/2022 at 3:10 AM, giemme said:

I'm afraid I can't be of any help in color interpretation from and old B&W photo;

On 7/4/2022 at 3:21 AM, AdrianMF said:

Can’t help with the photo colours but I can tell you that it looks like the best ever model 504!

On 7/4/2022 at 10:25 AM, Brandy said:

I can't help on the colours either,

 

what the collective noun for a bunch of wooses? 

 

On 7/4/2022 at 9:04 AM, Dave Slowbuild said:

I agree with suggestions that the cowling could well be red and white stripes.

The panels behind, not so sure.  Might they be one of those grey shades that are common on British types of that period?  Blue panels and wheels are very plausible though.

 

It’s a bit like watching snooker in black and white.  But all part of the fun!
 

Dave

 

grey? never thought of that, but am now - thanks

 

On 7/4/2022 at 10:32 AM, perdu said:

Don't tell him about the nail just to the side of where he is squatting it's sure to expose his southern front when he drops down.

 

 

Well I'm not going to tell him!

 

On 7/4/2022 at 3:00 PM, Dave Slowbuild said:

I went back to the start of the thread (to remind myself where in the world this machine was based) and saw the excerpt from Airfix mag in 1960.  The author of that also thought the cowling was red and white stripes, though in the diagram appears to have drawn one red stripe too many?

He thought the panels were the same colour as the fuselage, but they look lighter to me!  

 

I should take more note of my own postings apparently. I had completely forgotten about that post - thanks

 

On 7/4/2022 at 5:41 PM, mark.au said:

These are turning out to be beautiful little aeroplanes, and the paint will enhance them more so.  The red/white/blue at the front will look great.

 

still plenty of indecision to be decided upon before I commit to any procrastination

 

On 7/4/2022 at 6:33 PM, The Spadgent said:

Gobsmackingly amazing in every tiny way! 🥹 it’s bringing a treat to one’s eyes. 😮

 the amount of detail is just off the scale and it all just fits. 👏👏👏

 as for the colours you could get some reds and blues off the colours mentioned and desaturate to see if they end up like the BW photo. ? Maybe worth a go. I do think Bill it’s right though. They do look to be red. 
 

Johnny.

 

thanks Johnny.  I think I'm beginning to see a way forward with the colors, if not with the model itself.

 

 

Giorgio, take a seat please.

 

Some paint was spilled and fortyantely landed on a bunch of parts.  The poorly pseudo'd wood effect was done with Testors ehmnn...  'Wood" followed by some smearing of rather cheap and nasty oil paints that I need got rid of and repace with something of quality. Seat cusions in Model Master Leather and seat backs in Alclad something or other.  The gauges... ridiculously tiny gauges... were painted in satin black, then the rim was touched up in brass, and a drop of grey was plonked in the center to give some illusion of not being a black blob of paint.

 

 

The side frames were given the same treatment with the addition of some scratch building for the throttle lever as I had completely forgotten to add it to the model and wasn't about to have to print another set. The throttle is slightly overscale but it was the smallest I could make it and still handle it so it is staying.  EZ line was used for the rigging - which isn't accurate but will pass muster given what you can actually see inside there at the end of the day.

 

 

I mean, this is from the good side. What chance have you got seeing anything from the other side?

 

 

The interior was given a thing and rough coat of aged white which passes nicely for some shade of linen, which was then given a thin wash of red oxide. None of which will ever be noticed, or even visible once it's all painted up and rigged.

 

Once the two side frames were in it was time for the instrument panels. In a rare moment of ofrward planning I had thoughfully added two location cutouts in the instrument panel which corresponded to two sticky-outy bits on the side frames - you can just see one of them at the top side near the middle.    can you?

 

 

all of which places it nice and securely where it can be viewed from afar and slightly out of focus.

 

 

WHat did I tell you about being able to actually see anything from the top side?

 

 

this is about the best shot I could get with my battered old camera.

 

 

After that it was time to try and squeeze in the floor structure.  That took a bit of doing with the help of some choice phrases.  Don't ask me how I managed to get that in there cos I really don't know - after lots of phenargling it kind of squeezed into any available space and blocked off any escape routes.

 

 

The end effect however is rather pleasing albeit a bit sparse.  Somehow I have still got to fit two seats and a couple of control columns in there. and seatbelts too.  This stuff is never ending.

 

 

On a whim I took a shot with my phone and it turns out my phone takes better shots than my camera - don't expect this every time though as it's a real pita to get the shots from there up to here.

 

 

More wings are on the print bed and I forgot to take any shots of the new skid assembly which turned out even better than hoped for.

 

Next up is more paint I think.  Originally I wanted to add the lower wings before painting the fuselage but I have a wacky plan to attack the AVRO advertising on the sides and having wings on this will make the task even more difficult to do than it already is - if it even works.  And if it doesn't, of which the chances are very high, then clean up will also be easier with no wings getting in the way.

 

 

 

 

 

[Galligraphics]

6 hours ago, hendie said:

where it can be viewed from afar and slightly out of focus.

The best viewing angle for the majority of my models…

 

Unlike these beautiful creations which deserve to be seen in glorious close up just so we can appreciate the art and expertise of a master.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Galligraphics

[giemme]

 Those interiors are crazy beautiful, Alan!     I think the wood effect is spot on, and the top view of your last pic shows it all!

 

Ciao