28 Sqn AVRO 504K double trouble

[hendie]

 

A while back during one of my all too frequent interweb trawls, I happened across this shot purporting to be that of a 28 Sqn Avro 504K.  My heart sank.  

I thought I was almost there. I had built a Camel, an F2b and and almost everything up to a Wessex with only a Spitfire and a Hurricane left to complete the series.  I knew things were too good to be true.

I had found an occasional reference to 28 flying a 504 and even a BE2e out there in India but no concrete evidence, just a scurrilous rumor here and there.  When I came across this photo I started digging some more, and the more I dug the more it seemed this indeed was a 28 Squadron aircraft.

 

 

This excerpt from an Airfix magazine back in 1960 states that H2278 was a 6 Sqn aircraft, but the more digging I do the more certain I am that it flew with 28 Sqn - and perhaps with 6 Sqn as well at some point.

 

 

It's rather depressing isn't it?  That now means that I have to build yet another one of those darned biplane things.  Oh well I thought - off I scurried to ebay only to discover that the modeling world is not awash with 1/48 scale 504's.  There was the SMER kit of course. It was a repop of a repop of a repop and calling it basic would be kind.  There was the Blue Max 504 but that was long out of production though reviews appeared to state it was accurate ('ish).

Being as dumb as I am, and have proved beyond any reasonable doubt many times on this forum, I thought, well if I can build a Wapiti I'm sure I can build a 504?

 

Regular inhabitants here will recollect our antipodean brethren @Bandsaw Steve's marvellous 504 scratchbuild from a couple of years ago, which I shall be using as a reference in this build. Steve also kindly supplied me with some plans which will be coming in very handy as this build progresses (dangerous assumption p'raps).  Now, I'm not sure if transmitting those electrons all the way from down under to up here stretched the electrons a bit but when I started digging into the plans I found some slight discrepancies between the views and the fuselage cross sections... just enough to confuse me and stop me in my tracks.

 

As luck would have it (or so I thought) just a few weeks later a Blue Max 504 popped up on that bay at a very reasonable price.  I popped in a bid, and as it turned out I was the only bidder. Maybe I should have asked myself why?

Fast forward a few days and this popped up on my bench.  Very nice quality box though surprisingly small.

 

 

The comprehensive instruction sheet.  To be fair, they do provide a couple of shots of the model on the reverse side - which don't really help a lot.  Decal sheet appears functional, if somewhat basic. 

 

 

WHat about the kit itself though? 

I think I know why I was the only bidder now.  These are the plastic bits, including the plastic worms that got caught up inside the fuselage mold, and as much flash as well, just lots and lots, and LOTS of flash. On everything.

 

 

This is after all, the Collectors Limited Edition version so there's more. In addition to those quality items shown above, we also get some white metal parts to play with.

 

 

  (sorry but that skid at bottom center just cracks me up)

 

Just where does one start with such a spread before them?   

Finding a good knife would be a good start.  I think this kit will involve more whittling than any of your actual model building.

 

I did try sanding to begin with, but it turns out the days were a bit too short so I resorted to whittling. If you look hard enough you can just about make out some vaguely aircraft shaped parts inside all that flash.  It was a lot quicker to scythe off that unwanted plastic then sand the final  fraction of a millimeter.   Can you get a fraction of a millimeter?  Shouldn't it be decimal?

 

 

For a larf I decided to measure some of the flash.  Wow. That's impressive. That 0.62 is the thickness of the flash - not the thickness of the tailplane. 

The downside to that is that this means the mold was forced open by over half a millimeter under plastic pressure.  If the mold was forced open, that also means that the tailplane thickness is going to be increased by that same amount. In 1/48 that's over one scale inch too thick.

 

 

it was at this point that I pulled out the second kit to take a look at.

 

 

It's a coin toss as to which one is going to take more work 

I think I really need to work on my packaging though. It's not quite as eye catching as the Blue Max box is it?

 

Yes, I think I'm going to be doing an ♬ Avro from a bottle ♬

I never learn, do I ?

 

Strangely enough I found all that carving and whittling quite therapeutic and after some effort and a lot of sanding, some of the parts start to look as if they may even belong to the same aeroplane. 

With a bit, okay then, a lot of work I'm sure it will turn out looking something like a 504

 

 

However, a more rewarding alternative awaits me in that bottle of grey goo.  It's just needs a bit of pre-work too.

As a detour from sanding I sat in front of the laptop for an hour or two and started with something simple.  It goes without saying that I completely forgot to take any screenshots of the process. (and just noticed I missed a fillet or two on the trailing edges).  

 

 

Altogether not a very auspicious start, but a start nonetheless. The plan, as stupid as it undoubtedly is, is to create a full 504 kit from printed parts, and maybe even build the Blue Max kit as penance.

 

to be continued...

 

 

very slowly, probably

 

 

no, most certainly

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[roginoz]

Oh GREAT !!

 

Another @hendie build, and another biplane too !!

 

I'm in !!

 

Rog

[Hamden]

 

I'll take a seat by the window if you don't mind?

I am in awe of your skills with both plastic and resin and know that an outstanding and accurate 504 will emerge from that bottle on your bench

 

  Stay safe           Roger 

[Fritag]

Looking forward to this muchly.

 

And H2278 was a (pre-canopener) canopener aircraft too?  As a former 6 squadron bod I’ll pay a special proprietal interest n’all.

[perdu]

8 minutes ago, Fritag said:

Looking forward to this muchly.

 

And H2278 was a (pre-canopener) canopener aircraft too?  As a former 6 squadron bod I’ll pay a special proprietal interest n’all*.

He will too

 

Shame it means he will forget/ignore the Hawks again...

 

So many distractions

 

 

 

*me too but of course I am not a 'former 6 squadron bod'

[The Spadgent]

Like they say. “The lady doth protest too much”. Even though your Hunter turned out wonderfully the lack of fiddling and fixing was an evident low point for your manic modelling ways. This seems more your thing for sure. I’m really looking forward to it. By the way what on earth are those white metal frame things in the centre of the shot?  that pic did make me chuckle.

 

Happy modelling my friend.😀

 

 Johnny.
 

[mark.au]

This. Will. Be. Good.

[Galligraphics]

[Terry1954]

I'm in as well, early it seems.

 

More 3D learning for me!

 

Terry

[Max Headroom]

Page 1 of a Hendie build👍I’m sitting on the burst couch with the popcorn 🍿 

 

Trevor

[heloman1]

Wow, another Hendie tour de force...

 

Popcorn at the ready Alan.

 

Colin

[HAMP man]

Never mind the pop corn, I've brought my Trangia and I've got soup, half a Swansea and a kettle for tea.

 

Box On

 

Strickers

[Paul Thompson]

You won't want to hear this but I'll tell you anyway - I've built two of these and they were both excellent kits. That said, there should be a number on your box or instructions that tell you how far your kit was through the production run. These things were hand produced on a table-top injection moulder, and by the end of the run the mould was thouroughly worn out. My kits were from earlier than 500, and had little flash or over-thick trailing edges. The white metal content was also much better than what you've got, being the shape it was supposed to be. Yours looks like it was rubbed between thumb and fingers a bit before bagging up..................

 

Can't see in the photos, but do your wings suffer from the infamous wing ripple?

 

Regarding accuracy, this kit was designed from the Windsock Datafile plans and matches them very well. The trick is getting the insides to fit inside, always a pain with Blue Max and Pegasus, but the plastic is soft, which helps.

 

 

Paul.

[Brandy]

This could be fun....

 

Freudenschade type......

 

Beer and peanuts to hand, carry on that man!

 

Ian

[Chief Cohiba]

Well, it's a British Two Seater from the Great War (how could a war be great, but anyway), and it's something I haven't in my stash, so what not to like?

 

And if someone takes the chance of an awful lump of short-run-plastic umbled roughly in shape by moulds that had abso-nutsing-lutely plan how to do their job, to make this into an entire 3D-print take on it? One has to love it!

 

Count me in - just wipe the oil from the googles and stow the sheepskin jacket away. Ah, and two fingers of Islay's best, to celebrate the occasion. Tally ho!

 

Just grab the old wicker seat there, if I may?

[Bigdave22014]

HENDIE : "Oh, there's a kit. How can I make this more difficult?"

[Marklo]

Well I have a Smer 504k in the stash and a Bluemax snipe part started ( but without the flash) so I’m already invested. And anyway how could I miss another @hendie build. Will set the bar for me when I get either of the above moving.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Marklo

[hendie]

16 hours ago, roginoz said:

Oh GREAT !!

 

Another @hendie build, and another biplane too !!

 

I'm in !!

 

Rog

 

I blame Ian.  He kept goading me into it and as soon as I started a biplane he orfed and went to building normal planes n cars n stuff. Just watch - he'll be building a helicopter next.

 

15 hours ago, Hamden said:

I'll take a seat by the window if you don't mind?

I am in awe of your skills with both plastic and resin and know that an outstanding and accurate 504 will emerge from that bottle on your bench

 

  Stay safe           Roger 

 

its amazing the variety of stuff that's contained in that bottle. Ya just have to find the right molecules to attach to each other in the right way.  It's like lego with a chemistry set

 

15 hours ago, Fritag said:

Looking forward to this muchly.

 

And H2278 was a (pre-canopener) canopener aircraft too?  As a former 6 squadron bod I’ll pay a special proprietal interest n’all.

 

Careful what you wish for Steve...

 

14 hours ago, perdu said:

He will too

 

Shame it means he will forget/ignore the Hawks again...

 

So many distractions

 

 

 

*me too but of course I am not a 'former 6 squadron bod'

 

Oh I dunno Bill, he seems to have a new found enthusiasm for the build now he's passed his CAD monkey exam

 

14 hours ago, The Spadgent said:

Like they say. “The lady doth protest too much”. Even though your Hunter turned out wonderfully the lack of fiddling and fixing was an evident low point for your manic modelling ways. This seems more your thing for sure. I’m really looking forward to it. By the way what on earth are those white metal frame things in the centre of the shot?  that pic did make me chuckle.

 

Happy modelling my friend.😀

 

 Johnny.
 

 

white metal frame thingies?  read on MacDuff

 

12 hours ago, mark.au said:

This. Will. Be. Good.

 

It's always a shame to see such high hopes dashed so soon

 

11 hours ago, Galligraphics said:

 

you're gonna need a bigger bag 

 

11 hours ago, Terry1954 said:

I'm in as well, early it seems.

 

More 3D learning for me!

 

Terry

 

OOps, wrong thread Terry... this is beat your head against a wall CAD.  3D learning is two doors down the hall

 

11 hours ago, Max Headroom said:

Page 1 of a Hendie build👍I’m sitting on the burst couch with the popcorn 🍿 

 

Trevor

 

the Tamiya tape repairs didn't hold then?

 

10 hours ago, heloman1 said:

Wow, another Hendie tour de force...

 

Popcorn at the ready Alan.

 

Colin

 

as long as it's popcorn and anything sharp and throwable Colin.

 

9 hours ago, HAMP man said:

Never mind the pop corn, I've brought my Trangia and I've got soup, half a Swansea and a kettle for tea.

 

Box On

 

Strickers

 

is that soup any good as filler?  I might need some

 

9 hours ago, Paul Thompson said:

You won't want to hear this but I'll tell you anyway - I've built two of these and they were both excellent kits. That said, there should be a number on your box or instructions that tell you how far your kit was through the production run. These things were hand produced on a table-top injection moulder, and by the end of the run the mould was thouroughly worn out. My kits were from earlier than 500, and had little flash or over-thick trailing edges. The white metal content was also much better than what you've got, being the shape it was supposed to be. Yours looks like it was rubbed between thumb and fingers a bit before bagging up..................

 

Can't see in the photos, but do your wings suffer from the infamous wing ripple?

 

Regarding accuracy, this kit was designed from the Windsock Datafile plans and matches them very well. The trick is getting the insides to fit inside, always a pain with Blue Max and Pegasus, but the plastic is soft, which helps.

 

 

Paul.

 

thanks Paul. From what little metrology I've conducted on this kit, it does seem to be pretty accurate, or at least in accordance  with the drawings I have. Even though it's lacking detail in some areas it has still helped me figure out a few things that we difficult to decipher from drawings alone

I checked the box and instructions but couldn't find anything related to how far into the run this production was.   The wings appear to be fine, if overly thick, but straight enough.

 

9 hours ago, Brandy said:

This could be fun....

 

* type......

 

Beer and peanuts to hand, carry on that man!

 

Ian

 

I can almost see the smirk on you face from here Ian.

 

9 hours ago, Chief Cohiba said:

Well, it's a British Two Seater from the Great War (how could a war be great, but anyway), and it's something I haven't in my stash, so what not to like?

 

And if someone takes the chance of an awful lump of short-run-plastic umbled roughly in shape by moulds that had abso-nutsing-lutely plan how to do their job, to make this into an entire 3D-print take on it? One has to love it!

 

Count me in - just wipe the oil from the googles and stow the sheepskin jacket away. Ah, and two fingers of Islay's best, to celebrate the occasion. Tally ho!

 

Just grab the old wicker seat there, if I may?

 

Beat you to it Chief

 

7 hours ago, Bigdave22014 said:

HENDIE : "Oh, there's a kit. How can I make this more difficult?"

 

 

7 hours ago, Marklo said:

Well I have a Smer 504k in the stash and a Bluemax snipe part started ( but without the flash) so I’m already invested. And anyway how could I miss another @hendie build. Will set the bar for me when I get either of the above moving.

 

the bar is set.  Is that high enough for you?  Looks about rigt to me.

 

 

 

Wow.  I was a bit taken aback at the sheer number of replies... still trying to decide if folks like the old 504, if it was a really boring Saturday, or there was a mass outbreak of schadenfreude.  I'm going with the last one so far.

 

*EDIT*

Ouch!  Darned forum ghost posted on me again.  Just when you thought that problem had disappeared.

 

Continuing with my theme of avoiding anything complicated and sticking with the easy stuff, it felt appropriate to carry on and complete the empennage.

 

 

It's going to take a test print to see if the rib tapes and nails are acceptable or whether they will need some tweaking.  I've gone with the same rib tape height as I did on the Wapiti and that seemed to work out fine, but on the Avro I noticed the abundance of nail heads  decorating the tape so had a go at modeling them this time around.  A fools errand possibly.

 

 

Since the topic of rib tapes was brought up and I know there are a few folks out there diving into 3D-ing and printing I thought it might provide some benefit (or at least slight amusement) if I explained the process I followed to get here.

 

With the Wapiti I really dug myself into a hole with the method I used back then.  As is oft the case, a few nights ago I was going through the plan for this build in my head when something popped and I thought aha! There's a much easier way to do this.  On the Wapiti, in my naivete and rush to get ahead I ended up using split lines, extruded surfaces and a whole bunch of other stuff which just overly complicated the entire affair and caused multiple headaches further down the line. The new approach was in theory, much, much simpler. To a numptie like me it seemed like it couldn't fail.

 

The basic wing form was simple enough - I sketched a cross section of the aerofoil and extruded that sketch to form a simple plank shape. Various fillets were added to make it start looking like a tail plane.

Then:  I created a plane on the midplane of the tailplane of the aeroplane.  Plain enough eh?

It was important to have this plane exactly on the midplane between the upper and lower surfaces - you'll see why later.  You can also see the three reference points (colored dots) I used to create the plane - all three are on the midpoint of an edge.

 

 

On the Wapiti, I had tried to create the actual rib tapes themselves which created problems when trying to extrude them on for example, a leading edge or on some lofted surfaces.  This time I had the thought of: Why don't I just cut away bits of the wing, and whats left behind will be the tape.  Following?  Nope?  I thought not.  Lets see if this makes sense then.

 

I then selected that newly created plane to create another sketch on and this time I drew the areas I wanted to subtract/cut out.  i.e. anything that was not rib tape.

 

Once the sketch was complete it was time to make the actual cut.  The 3Ders among you will know that by default any cut or extrude begins on the plane on which the sketch is created. 

However, this time I applied an offset of 5mm to the origin of the cut which as you can see here, has raised the cut above the wing surface. (original sketch still showing in black here).  The small arrow in the center shows the direction of the extruded cut.

 

 

Now I just had to adjust the depth of the cut.  For this I chose the Offset From Surface option and selected the upper surface of the tailplane, and set the depth of the cut to 0.065mm. The offset from surface option means that the feature being created will be forced to follow the same contour of the surface being cut.

 

 

Resulting in this. Instant "rib tapes" with a uniform height all around. I can't believe I made things so difficult for myself first time around.  This process was so much simpler. Wash, rinse and repeat for the opposite surface.

 

 

Adding the nail heads was just as simple. I already had the plane in place and sketched a centerline along the length of a rib tape. I then drew a single circle constrained on the centerline and created a linear array cuz I'm lazy and couldn't be bothered drawing lots of little circles.  That sketch (blue circles) was then extruded using the offset from surface option again, this time using the upper surface as Direction 1, and the lower surface as Direction 2.

 

 

Fillets were added to the top of the nails, and then I used another linear array to repeat that array on each rib tape

 

 

Using the same midplane option I added some fairleads to the leading edge and added two grooves as guides for rigging later. After that it was an easy putt to mirror the body about itself and all of a sudden we have a tailplane.

 

 

Now, to answer your question Johnny... those misshapen bits of white metal are - after much filing, scraping, untwisting, and unbending - supposed to be the internal framing.

 

 

I found the use of parallel nosed pliers invaluable in helping untwist and unbend the spaghetti like mess.  I believe they all live in here somewhere - exact location to be determined at some later date.

 

 

I even managed to get the skid back to some semblance of straightness, though how long it will remain like that is open to debate.

 

until next time.

 

 

 

[Bandsaw Steve]

19 hours ago, hendie said:

 

 

 

It's rather depressing isn't it?  
 

 

Yes it is. My Avro 504 used to be the best ( and only) scratchbuilt  one on these pages… not for long now. 😔

 

19 hours ago, hendie said:

 

Regular inhabitants here will recollect our antipodean brethren @Bandsaw Steve's marvellous 504 scratchbuild from a couple of years ago, which I shall be using as a reference in this build. Steve also kindly supplied me with some plans which will be coming in very handy as this build progresses (dangerous assumption p'raps).  Now, I'm not sure if transmitting those electrons all the way from down under to up here stretched the electrons a bit but when I started digging into the plans I found some slight discrepancies between the views and the fuselage cross sections... just enough to confuse me and stop me in my tracks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Finding a good knife would be a good start.  I think this kit will involve more whittling than any of your actual model building.

 

I did try sanding to begin with, but it turns out the days were a bit too short so I resorted to whittling. 

 

 

 

that also means that the tailplane thickness is going to be increased by that same amount. In 1/48 that's over one scale inch too thick.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Strangely enough I found all that carving and whittling quite therapeutic and after some effort and a lot of sanding, some of the parts start to look as if they may even belong to the same aeroplane. 

With a bit, okay then, a lot of work I'm sure it will turn out looking something like a 504

 

 

Mate! If you are interested in one scale inch accuracy I would not advise using my ‘Marvellous’ 504 build as a reference. 
 

In fact it’s a pretty good reference for how to build a very rough approximation of of something a bit like an aeroplane.
 

If you found any problems with the plans it’s just because you are being too thorough. As you know I just cut-‘em-out and stick-‘em- on.

 

Whittling is therapeutic but is much more fun with a bandsaw than a knife. 
 

 

19 hours ago, hendie said:

 

However, a more rewarding alternative awaits me in that bottle of grey goo.  It's just needs a bit of pre-work too.

 

 

 

 

And That decision, Good Sir, seemed inevitable from the first sentence… 🤔

 

Now I shall sit back and see how this ‘build a 504’ business should actually be done. 👍

[hendie]

1 hour ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

Yes it is. My Avro 504 used to be the best ( and only) scratchbuilt  one on these pages… not for long now. 😔

 

to paraphrase our Johnny from earlier: the wood butcher doth protest too much.   

Can 3D printing really be counted as scratchbuilding?  or does it fall into some other 'til now uncategorized category?

 

1 hour ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

And That decision, Good Sir, seemed inevitable from the first sentence… 🤔

 

You knew it, the hive knew it, and deep down inside... I still tried to pretend there was an alternative. 

 

 

[Bandsaw Steve]

1 hour ago, hendie said:

 

 

Can 3D printing really be counted as scratchbuilding?  or does it fall into some other 'til now uncategorized category?

 

 

 

 

 

If ‘scratch-building’ is so called because we ‘scratch’ away the bits that should not be there then maybe 3D printing should be called ‘squirt-building’ because you squirt the bits you need into place. 🤔

[giemme]

@hendie, I  thought  you said you'd never go down that rabbit hole again...

 

Well, since I'm here,  I might as well follow this    

 

Ciao 

[heloman1]

Unbending work on the fus, interior paid dividends, it looks good.

 

Colin

[John_W]

Impressive work. 3D printing is something like witchcraft to a mere mortal like me.

[perdu]

7 minutes ago, John_W said:

Impressive work. 3D printing is something like witchcraft to a mere mortal like me.

Yes isn't it, do you mind if in paraphrasing you I modify one little word?

3D printing is everything like witchcraft to a mere mortal like me.

 

I have had the benefit of one to one training from hendie but I still, just wonder?

 

So you know Alan, your answer to the problem occurred to me too.

 

I thought why doesnt he?

 

 

 

 

 

So you did.