The Minor Gustavs: Bf 109Gs in Smaller Air Force Service

[John_W]

I was told the same thing, but had finished by then. I believe they also flew with a rudimentary night vision scope above the cockpit.

If I had to choose, would have gone for the shark mouth over the bat.

[SafetyDad]

1 hour ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

 

Which gets me to the G-10! I know enough to recognize that it's an Erla canopy, but other than that I'm not sure what I need to be looking for to know which kit to use. I was looking at the Fine Molds kit, because I'm interesting in building one of those. But Revell makes one too (much more affordable!) and AZ as well has I think a couple, or maybe more, G-10s. To me the profiles looks like a high-tail, Erla canopied G-6 without MG bulges-- so that's how unsophisticated my Bf109 knowledge is!

 

G-10 eh? Well, here's a primer for you.

 

The G-10 had a refined cowl to accommodate the larger supercharger intake and curved engine bearers of the later series of DB engines - bulged but more streamlined and more aerodynamic than the G-6. 

Three manufacturers produced the G-10 and each had their own take on the shape of these cowl bulges. The engines too differed in their auxiliaries such as oil scavenge pumps and coolers, therefore the G-10 cowls varied to accommodate these, with some having undercowl 'bumps' and others not. Google 'Mermet cowl drawings' for an idea of what I mean - normally I would link to pictures, but in this instance I feel that's a potential breach of copyright. Perhaps the biggest single issue is the differences in the cowls of the Erla made machines - these had a flat panel on the port side with a bulge on the starboard - noticeable even in 1/72 scale. 

Also usually (but not always) larger wheel bumps and usually (but not always) larger wheels with these bumps. Mostly tall tailwheels and the tall tail (oh, and there's at least three different variations on the shape of the later tall tail). 

It's very complex. 

 

You probably need to sift through the Prien and Rodeike book on the Bf 109F-K to get to grips with this, I haven't attempts to cover all the details in this post - they do. 

 

Here's the book

 

 

and here's some information from it. The engine supercharger and that curved engine bearer that meant the cowl had to change

 

 

Two of the three types of G-10. Look very carefully at the cowl bulges, tail details and wheels. The Erla machine is not illustrated in the drawings below, but I think the crashed machine above is Erla built - look at the flat panel behind the engine.

 

 

 

Look again at aerial masts and DF loops

 

There's a start 

 

HTH

 

SD

[Jochen Barett]

2 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

+++ But Revell makes one too (much more affordable!) and AZ as well has I think a couple, or maybe more, G-10s. To me the profiles looks like a high-tail, Erla canopied G-6 without MG bulges-- so that's how unsophisticated my Bf109 knowledge is!

 

After you have learned to tell an F from an E, we may start telling a G from an F and the G versions and subersions and the Rüstsätze.

- G2 / F

- G5

- G6 (subvariants)

- G10 (subvariants)

- K oops? Yes, in case you go too far, you have to tell a K from a G

 

From nose to tail? Inspect and compare:

- propeller (blades, shape and size)

- oil filler cap position (high/low)

- chin bulges (engine variant)

- oil cooler shape/size

- engine air intake (size)

- MG 17 (no bulges) / MG 131 (bulges in at least four different shapes, early single, later faired in - plus the one you showed)

- main wheel size and bulges on wing

- canopy and head armor (old canopy, pressurized y/n / Erla hood, steel / glass head armor)

- FuG 16 antenna?

- battery cover within the canopy

- antenna mast (tall / small / none)

- ring antenna?

- tail wheel

- tail (regular, tall and if so, which variant http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/techref/structures/tails/talltail.htm )

(and real O'nine experts can tell you more)

 

Rüstsätze anybody?

Edited March 21, 2022 by Jochen Barett
typo

[SafetyDad]

6 minutes ago, Jochen Barett said:

 

After you have learned to tell am F from an E, we may start telling a G from an F and the G versions and subersions and the Rüstsätze.

- G2 / F

- G5

- G6 (subvariants)

- G10 (subvariants)

- K oops? Yes, in case you go too far, you have to tell a K from a G

 

From nose to tail? Inspect and compare:

- propeller (blades, shape and size)

- oil filler cap position (high/low)

- chin bulges (engine variant)

- oil cooler shape/size

- engine air intake (size)

- MG 17 (no bulges) / MG 131 (bulges in at least four different shapes, early single, later faired in - plus the one you showed)

- main wheel size and bulges on wing

- canopy and head armor (old canopy, pressurized y/n / Erla hood, steel / glass head armor)

- FuG 16 antenna?

- battery cover within the canopy

- antenna mast (tall / small / none)

- ring antenna?

- tail wheel

- tail (regular, tall and if so, which variant http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/techref/structures/tails/talltail.htm )

(and real O'nine experts can tell you more)

 

Rüstsätze anybody?

I like your organised thinking.

Rüstsätze? No, my head is hurting

 

SD

 

[SafetyDad]

Hey @ModelingEdmontonian

 

On a lighter note (although the aircraft is a Bf 109G-10), some help for you

 

 

 

 

All of 'Black 4' of the Croatian Air Force - it's a great choice of colour scheme.

SD

 

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

But Revell makes one too (much more affordable!)

Tyhe Revell kit is a G-10 of this type,  with the wing bulges.  This is is one of the Diana built G-10's IIRC.   The Erla ones have a different cowling. and usually small wing bulges.

1 hour ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

and AZ as well has I think a couple, or maybe more, G-10s. To me the profiles looks like a high-tail, Erla canopied G-6 without MG bulges-- so that's how unsophisticated my Bf109 knowledge is!

Some of the DB605 engines, the DB605 AS and 605 D used a different larger supercharger,  this resulted in a need for a engine bearer with a curve in it, the bulges typical of the G-5/6 are caused by the breeches of the large calibre MG fitted.

 

So, with the new curved engine bearer and supercharger, a tidy up was done, and a large smoother bulge made,  sometimes called the refined cowling. 

G-14 with straight engine bearer

 

curved engine bearer , the larger supercharger is clear.  

 

due to it being quite subtle, the bulges are not always clear, but this shows the starboard side, which has a smaller bulge as it only cover the gun breech, but the polish and light shows the shape well

 

the bulges is subtle here, note the rear faring. Caption says it's an Erla built

 

the bulges can be hard to see, this museum shot does show it

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/walkaround/611943/kp.611943-04.jpg

 

and this extent of the bulge can be seen looking at the top line where the panle has been removed on this K-4,  note the K-4 is externally very similar to a Diana G-10, this shows a couple of the main identfiers, the moved trapeziodal hatch, and the moved fuel filler 

 

 

the AS/ and D variant have wider prop blabdes, deep oil coolers and lather supercharger intakes,  and theere are difference between the cowl types, the Erla being differtn in shape and the way the gun troughs are made.  

 

There are a whole more details to make your brain ache.... There is a lot more 'sense' to late war 109's now, due to there being a lot more photos,  and difference are often now known to be related to which factory, sub variant and production batch, but this is only due to this being pieced together very slowly and painstakingly by researchers...

 

get a cheap Revell g-10, build and enjoy.   Its basically a decent kit

[Jochen Barett]

21 minutes ago, SafetyDad said:

Hey @ModelingEdmontonian

+++

All of 'Black 4' of the Croatian Air Force - it's a great choice of colour scheme.

SD

 

Thanks for the reminder:

- octane triangle "87" or "C3"? (hints at engine used, "C3" on Croation black 4)

[Marklo]

2 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

Unfortunately, @Marklo, your photos don't load for me! I've tried on my phone and laptop.

Ah that’s because village photos stopped working properly. I was going to do an RFI with my new photo booth anyway so I’ll redo all 16(17?) and post them before the end of the week. 

[Troy Smith]

39 minutes ago, SafetyDad said:

On a lighter note (although the aircraft is a Bf 109G-10), some help for you

some sources say it's a G-14/AS...

 

But this also turned up

 

"Bf 109 G-14/AS W.Nr. 782 104 (?) "Crni 4", flown by deserting pilot Vladimir Sandtner, I.Zrakoplovna Skupina. 2. Lovačko Jato, seen at Falconara after 16 April 1945"

which was totally new too me, and pretty jaw dropping... note the B-25 in the background too.

 

see here, with lots more b/w pics

 

 

cheers

T

[Marklo]

 Rather than hijack your thread I’ve posted an image of each at end of my wip thread. Actually looks pretty cool  

[Marklo]

8 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

some sources say it's a G-14/AS...

I’ve built this one twice (40 years ago and last year  ) and both times built it as a G10 but tbh that would also pretty much tally with a G14as too. Now that said I’ve never heard of a G14as before but I’m assuming it was an up engined G14.

 

And now having looked at those photos I will find a quiet corner and sob a little as it looks like I’m missing  the goats head haven’t got the German crosses under the Croatian on the wings and may have totally wrong camo colours on it, darn…..

Edited March 21, 2022 by Marklo

[Troy Smith]

  

On 19/03/2022 at 19:55, Marklo said:

I too was a teenage 109 buff.

 

16 minutes ago, Marklo said:

Now that said I’ve never heard of a G14as before but I’m assuming it was an up engined G14.

!!  Correct, AS refers to engine fitted, DB605 AS, which like the DB605 D had enlarged supercharger, hence the 'refined' cowling.  

 

I noted one detail I forgot, 

the detail can be very small,  the defining characteristic is this posted by @Dave Fleming

 

The external visible difference between the G14/AS and the G10 was apparently the position of the cold weather starter hatch on the starboard side of the nose - on the G10 it was in line with the little hole on the rear of the cowl, on the G14AS it was lower down - this picture of Black 4 shows this clearly (just above the A of viscarra)

 

this is a K-4, but same engine as the G-10, the DB605D,  and the moved cold weather starter hatch.  You can also see on the K-4 larger bulged tyres and 8 bolt wheel hubs,  which cause the need to the wing bulges.

 

 

HTH

 

 

[ModelingEdmontonian]

Wow so much to respond to! Thanks @SafetyDad @Troy Smith @Marklo @Jochen Barett! For now: that Croat black 4 is the one I was going to model, but from the Academy G-14 kit. Now I realize per above that the decals call it out as a G-14AS--do I need to modify or change kits?

 

 

For what it's worth I picked this kit up too, not sure if it's worth bringing it into the conversation though... wasn't planning to actually build it, but it was cheap so thought I might raid it for parts or decals. 

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by ModelingEdmontonian

[ModelingEdmontonian]

deleted as duplicate

Edited March 21, 2022 by ModelingEdmontonian

[ModelingEdmontonian]

And, finally, Bulgaria. Again, there is a Bulgarian version on the Lift Here decals sheet.

 

 

And also in this other Mistercraft kit:

 

 

But, the postwar option on this sheet looks much more interesting!
 

 

That's a tall tale G-6, right? And what about the middle one? Not a G-6, I'm pretty sure, but I don't know what it is!

[Troy Smith]

9 minutes ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

Academy G-14 kit. Now I realize per above that the decals call it out as a G-14AS--do I need to modify or change kits?

 

For Black 4, and a G14/AS. yes. 

You need a kit with the refined cowling, small wing bulges and a tail tailwheel.

None of the kits you have fit this description though. 

 

for Black 10, as per the Academy kit, no.  See image below,   It's a straight G-14.  Note, the difference between a G-6 and a G-14 can be very hard, if not impossible to tell without a serial, and even the Luftwaffe was confused.      Oh, and to add to the fun you can get  G6/AS as well.....    I did warn you.....

from this thread, which is well worth a read.

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235081148-that-croatian-defectors-bf109g-a-colour-pic/

 

 

[Troy Smith]

3 minutes ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

That's a tall tale G-6, right?

maybe.

3 minutes ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

And what about the middle one? Not a G-6, I'm pretty sure, but I don't know what it is!

G-2 is most likely.    

I'd need to see if these are in Bulgarian fighter Colours.  They may not be.  Right now I can't cannot be bothered to go and pull the book out.   

 

There is a quite a lot of right cobblers floating about on the late Bf109's.

 

I was avidly studying this 40 years ago as teenager,  this was when i first started to buy specialist books, which were mail order only for me, and expensive, and then the picture was just starting to become clearer.   Then there was no knowledge of factory variations, or factory specfic camo patterns, or all sorts of detail now available.

 

If you can be bothered, read this, or skim it , the 1966 Profile. Note they don't know what a G-10 or a K-4 look like.  Maybe the best reference until the 1976 Last of The Eagles by John Beaman, which really was groundbreaking, and is still impressive now,  if rather superseded. 

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Aircraft-Profiles/Germany/WWII/Messerschmitt-Bf109G-Gustav

 

then this,  which was one of those specialist book I bought at 16, along with 'Last Of The Eagles'

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Monogram-Close-up/Messerschmitt-109G-Gustav-Part-2

and this

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Monogram-Close-up/Messerschmitt-Bf-109K

 

Note the amount of photos in each.  Not many, compared to the veritable deluge available online,  note that was about all the K photo then known, there are at least 5 times that many now known.  The K is outside of you field of interest, as apart from a handful flown by the Italians, was Luftwaffe only, and only 750 built.

 

Anyway,   I mention  and link the above to give an idea of why the subject is so confused, and confusing, and why so much cobblers is floating about...    Meanwhile, here and now, you get to ask questions, and more than likely get up to date answers, but they are the result of many years of lengthy complex investigations.....  

[ModelingEdmontonian]

29 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

for Black 10, as per the Academy kit, no. 

I got confused, I had in fact written down Black 10 as the Croat one I intended to model... thanks, @Troy Smith Looks like I have some reading to do!

 

6 hours ago, John_W said:

I was told the same thing, but had finished by then. I believe they also flew with a rudimentary night vision scope above the cockpit.

If I had to choose, would have gone for the shark mouth over the bat.

agreed, shark mouth is the way to go, although the bat is pretty cool too! my 6 year old kiddo likes the shark mouths too, so we aren't the only ones 😉

 

@SafetyDad and @Jochen Barett are you trying to scare me off!? 🤣 If @Troy Smith confidently tells me the Revell G-10 one is the way to go, I think I'll stick with that... my wallet will thank me.

 

@Marklo I can see the photos now, thanks! Very cool collection!

[Jochen Barett]

15 minutes ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

+++

@SafetyDad and @Jochen Barett are you trying to scare me off!? 🤣 If @Troy Smith confidently tells me the Revell G-10 one is the way to go, I think I'll stick with that... my wallet will thank me.

+++

 

Can't speak for the other guys, for my part I'm trying to prepare or "harden" you. Remember my checklist? It helps to take a look at your refecences and helps to ignore profiles and captions ("This is a G6xyz, G10, G14, ..., yeah, I know"). Remember you may have thought "that's a lot!", and all of a sudden you realize I forgot "the cold weather starter hatch on the starboard side of the nose". And we have not started to talk about RLM colors and the style of upper wing camo pattern depending upon the manufacturing plant. And remember the Rüstsätze?

 

So, at a certain point you may want to compromise like "OK, it's gonna be a late 109 G with tall tail, small tail wheel, Erla-canopy, smooth gun bulges, big wheels with big upper wing bulges, small antena mast - and I do not care for the stencil of the GM-1 filler cap or the cold weather starter hatch on the starboard side of the nose, I'm just going to make this model plane look good and as much 109 as possible so nobody will mistake it for a Lancaster." (and you may wish to include the FuG 16 antenna but ignore the chin bulges, precise version oil cooler and oil filler cap postition for your first ten years of building 109s).

 

Your build log will have the proper audience and in your oncoming RFI hopefully people will concentrate on your building skills and convincing paint job and great choice of livery and have the decency not to talk about that Revell main gear you did not correct or wrong version of tall tail 😎 just make that ring antenna look good (slim) and chose the proper color for its base!

[Marklo]

A bit like your Hurricane collection they look pretty cool assembled together. And if they ever get to a modellers meeting irl they’ll make a wonderful talking point.

 

At least two ( possibly three) of those are from mr craft kits the sandgelb Italian and the Buchon conversion I think .

 

And I’m going to add the Luftwaffe crosses and a goat to my black 4, but live with the late war camo  colours. I’m not 100% convinced from the colour photo that it should be in grey. 

[Troy Smith]

17 minutes ago, Jochen Barett said:

So, at a certain point you may want to compromise like

 

18 minutes ago, Jochen Barett said:

 

Your build log will have the proper audience and in your oncoming RFI hopefully people will concentrate on your building skills and convincing paint job and great choice of livery and have the decency not to talk about that Revell main gear you did not correct or wrong version of tall tai

@ModelingEdmontonian has already walked that fine line in the Hurricane thread, asks questions, takes on the answers but doesn't get paralysed by kit glitches, excess information  or extreme paint matching dillemmas,  which I have found a refreshingly pragmatic approach.      That has been a good thread for other modellers, with plenty of information and an interesting series of models, done to a good, but not intimidating standard, but with plenty of problem solving and practical modelling skills, as well a steady improvement in modelling,  I really like this  kind of thread, as it demonstrates to nervous beginners that it's a friendly and helpful site,  where you get positive feedback and helpful answers and advice, as well as an interesting series of models.   

 

I think this will be a similar thread,  already it's broken down a lot of baffling info on the Bf109 into reasonable guide without getting to technical, but indicating how technical it can get, with useful images to show what is what, including your very handy check list, which has been a good contribution.

 

cheers

T

 

 

 

 

[Jochen Barett]

8 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

@ModelingEdmontonian has already walked that fine line in the Hurricane thread, +++

 

cheers

T

Thanks for reminding/pointing me! I kinda lost track of that build thread and just checked it. Yes, I agree, a good example of collaboration and a good example of walking that fine line 👍

 

I built the Croation black 4 many moons ago, when only a B&W pic and profiles were available and used the Hasegawa 1/72 109 G6 as a base kit and no third party decal set was around.

(I did it in late war greens. And I completely missed the goat)

[SafetyDad]

+1 to Troy's comments above about the nature of this thread.

 

@ModelingEdmontonian - I must admit that I intentionally held off providing lots of detail in my post above as I was mindful of just how complex this area can be. As an example and being honest, I was unaware of the difference in cold weather starter hatch locations that Dave and Troy have highlighted - every day is a school day as they say! (There's also a difference on the port side of the cowl between G-10 and G-14AS versions with the location of the oil filler hatch (but I'll have to go to the books to recall correctly which is which!). I do think that you've reached the point where Bf 109 variants become pretty complex - Troy and Jochen have given some excellent pointers about understanding all this, but references (such as the ones highlighted by Troy and myself) allow you to digest the information at your pace. Oh, and Troy is also right about the cobblers...

 

We've got your back

 

SD

[Marklo]

I too love this kind of thread. I’m no rivet counter but I like to get things broadly correct. Once you get up to the G6 Me109 configuration gets very complex to the point that I reckon you’d need to see the logbook to see what model the factory thought they’d just built,

 

But black 4 is a case in point, if it’s accuracy you’re after study your photo references. I’m 

[Marklo]

my goat.