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1/48 - G.D./L.M. F-16 Fighting Falcon/Viper family by Kinetic - F-16A/AM, KF-16U & F-16C/D block 25/30/42/52 released - next: RoCAF F-16A/B & F-16V; Polish F-16C; Danish F-16B; Thaï F-16AM


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12 minutes ago, Tbolt said:

 

Since Kinetic have their instructions on their website, it would be nice if they would actually just get on and add these kits to their site.

I don't think they've updated that in at least 5 years,

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10 hours ago, Steve McArthur said:

I don't think they've updated that in at least 5 years,

 

True their latest news on their site is from 2018. Even the kits on there that have instructions listed the links are all broken. Strange for a company that seems to be doing well at the moment, with regards to kit production anyway.

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On 11/22/2022 at 5:53 AM, dreamwriter said:

Their excuse,as given to me on FB, to justify not having the magnets on the box is the consumer laws on UK, US and Canada, that say kits can't be sold sealed and its illegal to include the magnets on unsealed boxes. Asked them if the magnets would be included on kits sold in EU shops and got no further reply. They only said they would consider offering the magnets as extra parts, making modellers spend even more money. So "considerate" of them...

The "excuse" is actually a fact. 

Also you can add Australia to the list where 1mm dia x 1mm high magnets cannot be sold loose. So Kinetic are doing the right thing by those markets, and by themselves (I.e. not breaking the law and becoming liable for prosecution).  Just because it's not the same where you are, doesn't mean that it's not like that elsewhere. 

That said the magnets cost virtually nothing from Chinese stores if you wish to purchase them. 

Edited by Calum
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On 11/22/2022 at 4:21 AM, Steve McArthur said:

I don't have the DACO ones in my stash, but do have a couple others. Do you know for a fact that they align with the scribing on the Kinetic kit?  Many of these came out when the Hasegawa F-16 was still the best F-16 in 1:48. They could be fine, but until someone tests the DACO product on the Kinetic kit, no one really knows.

 

I do have a question for Kinetic, why are these kits labelled as Gold Series kits and have no photo-etch? 

 

 

Gold series means that the parts are designed ad manufactured to their newer (higher) tooling standards. It has nothing to do with PE or Magnets -  whoever told you that is wrong.

There is a caveat though, some earlier kits have the "gold" label but include parts from pre gold tooling along with the newer standard tooling. For example the Cheetah, Kfir C-10 Harrier, AV-8A, GR.3, and Hornets.   This isn't ideal, but a it's also not really a secret..

Kits like the Starfighters, F-16's and Pucara are all tooled to the using their later tooling standard.

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5 hours ago, Calum said:

The "excuse" is actually a fact. 

Also you can add Australia to the list where 1mm dia x 1mm high magnets cannot be sold loose. So Kinetic are doing the right thing by those markets, and by themselves (I.e. not breaking the law and becoming liable for prosecution).  Just because it's not the same where you are, doesn't mean that it's not like that elsewhere. 

That said the magnets cost virtually nothing from Chinese stores if you wish to purchase them. 

Yup, same with those magnet ball toys.

Can't be sold anymore,  swallowing one of those small extremely strong magnets will play havoc with your innards if near metal or the rest of the magnets.

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7 hours ago, Bozothenutter said:

swallowing one of those small extremely strong magnets will play havoc with your innards if near metal or the rest of the magnets.

If anyone swallows a magnet it would exit again in about ~24 hrs 😋

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14 hours ago, Calum said:

The "excuse" is actually a fact. 

Also you can add Australia to the list where 1mm dia x 1mm high magnets cannot be sold loose. So Kinetic are doing the right thing by those markets, and by themselves (I.e. not breaking the law and becoming liable for prosecution).  Just because it's not the same where you are, doesn't mean that it's not like that elsewhere. 

That said the magnets cost virtually nothing from Chinese stores if you wish to purchase them. 

I get that,but that's not the point. The point is that they advertised it as included in the kit. And its not included so, they should have checked if it was allowed or not,before advertising it. Specially because,according to Vini Pompeo's review,the Magfire system was the only reason they tooled the weapons in several parts and not a single piece affair like GWH,AMK and others already do. So, now not only the magnets are not included, but the weapons require extra work because of the magnets that are not there. Also,from what they said,its only forbidden in UK,US and Canada markets. No mention of EU market. They were questioned if kits sold in EU shops, and never clarified. 

And yes,its easily solvable since you can buy the magnets. I bought them for a GWH Su-27 I'm currently building. But you shouldn't have to spend more money to get something that according to Kinetic,should be in the box.

While we are talking about the magnets, I can tell you that, from my experience with the Flanker missiles, 1x1mm magnets might be too small and not strong enough to hold the weapons in place, specially on wingtip pylons or other pylons that are not completely vertical. I had to get 2x1mm magnets to get a stronger bond. But the size to use also depends on the missile size of course. The Flanker ones are bigger than Sidewinders or Sparrows, and there's room to drill 2mm holes for the magnets.

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I think you have to let this go. The magnets are not and will not be included however much you argue. If you knew anything about production, it is that it is very costly to customize per market what is in the boxing. So the manufacturers makes "one size fit all". 

Maybe they should have updated the marketing material and explained this, maybe they did - don't know and don't care. You still don't get any magnets. They have facilitated for it, and that's it. 

I liked the idea when first announced, but it is not a showstopper. And most builders glue the parts anyhow. 

 

 

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14 hours ago, Calum said:

There is a caveat though...

Your caveat demonstrate there are no standards when more than half the kits released as Gold don't meet the criteria for "newer (higher) tooling standards". By your argument Gold doesn't mean squat, it's just a markup on the kit price. It can be old tool, new tool, no PE fret, just whatever Kinetic feels like. Just the fact that some standard releases have PE frets shows that Kinetic recognizes there are details that can't be easily molded and their "newer (higher) tooling standards" would argue that a PE fret for at least the structural stiffeners should have been included.   

 

I've never seen anything in print from Kinetic about what a Gold kit was supposed to be. I just did the research and found the one common element in Gold kits was a PE fret with seat belts that wasn't in the standard boxings. Please find me a gold kit without seat belts (other than the F-16) to prove me wrong. There were several blue box releases with PE that were re-released as Gold kits and the PE fret was changed to one with seat belts.  F/A-18 and Harriers did this. This was consistent until now and implied to me Kinetic's "standard" includes seat belts in Gold kits. I'm disappointed their "standard" slipped on this kit.  

 

Marketing is the only reason I can see that Kinetic is calling the F-16 a Gold Series is to differentiate the new tool F-16s from their original tooling kits, it's got nothing to do with standards. It won't really matter, the clueless will still ask "Is this old tool or new" for any Kinetic F-16 kit boxing no matter when it was released.  I've already seen it happen with the their F-16E/F that released this year.

 

I'd really like Kinetic to post a video destroying their original tooling.  Warp the molds in a press, drill holes through them, demolition charges, drop them in the ocean, anything to guarantee those molds can no longer ever be used.

 

 

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2 hours ago, dreamwriter said:

I get that,but that's not the point. The point is that they advertised it as included in the kit. And its not included so, they should have checked if it was allowed or not,before advertising it. Specially because,according to Vini Pompeo's review,the Magfire system was the only reason they tooled the weapons in several parts and not a single piece affair like GWH,AMK and others already do. So, now not only the magnets are not included, but the weapons require extra work because of the magnets that are not there. Also,from what they said,its only forbidden in UK,US and Canada markets. No mention of EU market. They were questioned if kits sold in EU shops, and never clarified. 

And yes,its easily solvable since you can buy the magnets. I bought them for a GWH Su-27 I'm currently building. But you shouldn't have to spend more money to get something that according to Kinetic,should be in the box.

While we are talking about the magnets, I can tell you that, from my experience with the Flanker missiles, 1x1mm magnets might be too small and not strong enough to hold the weapons in place, specially on wingtip pylons or other pylons that are not completely vertical. I had to get 2x1mm magnets to get a stronger bond. But the size to use also depends on the missile size of course. The Flanker ones are bigger than Sidewinders or Sparrows, and there's room to drill 2mm holes for the magnets.

 

Finally, we can register an account here.

 

First, I would apologize if we make you "feel" the magnet is included. From the initial new release, we said magnet ready missile. We never said the magnet is included. We carefully study the consumer laws in western countries as it plays importance in safety requirement. After several checking, we decided not to include the magnet to avoid any possible issue when the product arrive the destined countries.

The EU safety rules is more strict than USA, our legal people is checking the local laws there but seems a high chance is not allowed.

 

As for the magnet dimension, it is designed at 1mm x 1,2mm (length). The US missile is "lighter" in plastic than those Russian missile. Besides, if N5 type strength will enough to hold it.

 

So, I take this chance to explain the Magfire features:

 

1. When a missile is designed to be hold with magnet, the locating pin angle need to 90 degrees to the pylon, we can achieve that via one pc missile like in our Su-33 or split the attachment body from the missile head and the fin;

2. All "bombs" GB-12/49, 38,24, the same idea, So the new weapon sprue bomb need to rework the locating pin and splitting the bomb fin with more work to assemble.

 

So to the question, why we don't use one pc slide mold missile ? - simple answer - cost. Our F-16 retails in UK is 69p, how you much you pay for the high end kit with many high end missile (e.g. AMK, GWH ? ) 100 or above. 

 

Some people will want an "superior" kit with everything inside, but this is not the concept at Kinetic. 

 

So i want to take this chance to express our product design concept, for those high end customer, you can understand what we are going to deliver.

 

1. We never want to replace all possible resin upgrade option;

2. Instead we carefully plan which features goes for plastic and which option leave to aftermarket company;

3. The idea of plastic injection is "volume", we leave those "less demand" item into aftermarket company where they have a better cost/effective ratio

4. Kinetic target to provide 85% of the common customer group with what they need vs the cost / selling price. 

 

So we never want to be a model brand as we include everything inside the box. 

Also, leaving the option to AM guys will make more option to different customer demand. Some may want more details in cockpit, some in engine, some in wheel....

 

Regards

Raymond - KineticModel

Edited by Kineticuk
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45 minutes ago, Steve McArthur said:

Your caveat demonstrate there are no standards when more than half the kits released as Gold don't meet the criteria for "newer (higher) tooling standards". By your argument Gold doesn't mean squat, it's just a markup on the kit price. It can be old tool, new tool, no PE fret, just whatever Kinetic feels like. Just the fact that some standard releases have PE frets shows that Kinetic recognizes there are details that can't be easily molded and their "newer (higher) tooling standards" would argue that a PE fret for at least the structural stiffeners should have been included.   

 

I've never seen anything in print from Kinetic about what a Gold kit was supposed to be. I just did the research and found the one common element in Gold kits was a PE fret with seat belts that wasn't in the standard boxings. Please find me a gold kit without seat belts (other than the F-16) to prove me wrong. There were several blue box releases with PE that were re-released as Gold kits and the PE fret was changed to one with seat belts.  F/A-18 and Harriers did this. This was consistent until now and implied to me Kinetic's "standard" includes seat belts in Gold kits. I'm disappointed their "standard" slipped on this kit.  

 

Marketing is the only reason I can see that Kinetic is calling the F-16 a Gold Series is to differentiate the new tool F-16s from their original tooling kits, it's got nothing to do with standards. It won't really matter, the clueless will still ask "Is this old tool or new" for any Kinetic F-16 kit boxing no matter when it was released.  I've already seen it happen with the their F-16E/F that released this year.

 

I'd really like Kinetic to post a video destroying their original tooling.  Warp the molds in a press, drill holes through them, demolition charges, drop them in the ocean, anything to guarantee those molds can no longer ever be used.

 

 

 

 

I think we have to do more effort in the "Gold Series" and I am sure you have not get any Kinetic since we have the Gold Series (started with M346).

 

The concept of Kinetic Gold is not whether it includes PE or others parts. It is brand to indicate those product are made from a whole engineering system. 

We started the business in 2009, like many model kit company, we started from no where and working with initial tooling system. We made mistake and learn from that.

Our first generation F-16 was made on that basis. As those who had the our previous F-16 will know, it will take many effort to sand, trim, fitting. The old F-16 still can be built into a nice presentation 

with some skills. 

 

Gold Series kit is made from a whole new tooling system, where precision in fitting, panel lining following the "Gold series" - we have F-18, M346, F-104, IA-58, Harrier GR3/T2, Su33 are in the category on this basis.

 

The box of F-18 has changed to Gold Series after the reprint as we classify the Gold Series, so you don't see blue box of F-104

Gold Series does not mean we have PE. 

 

Also, Gold series does not means we will include every options of the subjects. Like in this F-16, we skip the PIDS pylon in the new tooling. 

 

In our new F-16 series, we will remove F-16E/F from the Gold Series, this F-16 plans for A,B,C,D block 50,52,70,72 (we have the MDF console included) That is why we reissue the F-16E/F from the old tooling.

 

So, this new F-16 is not just a rebox and we maintain it as the old kit price.

 

"I'd really like Kinetic to post a video destroying their original tooling.  Warp the molds in a press, drill holes through them, demolition charges, drop them in the ocean, anything to guarantee those molds can no longer ever be used."

Do you happy to see this happen ? sorry it won't , the old tooling still need to support the F-16E/F and XL series. 

 

Raymond - KineticModel

 

Edited by Kineticuk
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Its always nice to see a kit maker both read, and also engage in the community. That deserves thanks.

 

So we are to understand that Kinetic "Gold" is a marketing name to differentiate old Kinetic kits vs. new ones, that is clear.

 

However, in regards to the criticisms of the model; of course once a model has been released it is nigh on impossible to make changes, but will you accept this both for now, and also for the future?

From my side, I have been looking forward to this kit, as I wanted to build a Danish F-16, but after the both the delay and the ...lukewarm.. model, I have decided to buy a Danish F-35 (from Tamiya) instead.

I am however still hopeful for a F-16C of the Polish Air Force, so I am hoping it will be better than the current offering.

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1 hour ago, SprueMan said:

Its always nice to see a kit maker both read, and also engage in the community. That deserves thanks.

 

So we are to understand that Kinetic "Gold" is a marketing name to differentiate old Kinetic kits vs. new ones, that is clear.

 

However, in regards to the criticisms of the model; of course once a model has been released it is nigh on impossible to make changes, but will you accept this both for now, and also for the future?

From my side, I have been looking forward to this kit, as I wanted to build a Danish F-16, but after the both the delay and the ...lukewarm.. model, I have decided to buy a Danish F-35 (from Tamiya) instead.

I am however still hopeful for a F-16C of the Polish Air Force, so I am hoping it will be better than the current offering.

 

Making a new F-16 does not mean we need to stop the old one. The market will tell.  As I said also, the old F-16 tooling also taking care the F-16XL series which we may consider to update it to reuse the new f-16 parts.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Kineticuk said:

 

Finally, we can register an account here.

 

First, I would apologize if we make you "feel" the magnet is included. From the initial new release, we said magnet ready missile. We never said the magnet is included. We carefully study the consumer laws in western countries as it plays importance in safety requirement. After several checking, we decided not to include the magnet to avoid any possible issue when the product arrive the destined countries.

The EU safety rules is more strict than USA, our legal people is checking the local laws there but seems a high chance is not allowed.

 

As for the magnet dimension, it is designed at 1mm x 1,2mm (length). The US missile is "lighter" in plastic than those Russian missile. Besides, if N5 type strength will enough to hold it.

 

So, I take this chance to explain the Magfire features:

 

1. When a missile is designed to be hold with magnet, the locating pin angle need to 90 degrees to the pylon, we can achieve that via one pc missile like in our Su-33 or split the attachment body from the missile head and the fin;

2. All "bombs" GB-12/49, 38,24, the same idea, So the new weapon sprue bomb need to rework the locating pin and splitting the bomb fin with more work to assemble.

 

So to the question, why we don't use one pc slide mold missile ? - simple answer - cost. Our F-16 retails in UK is 69p, how you much you pay for the high end kit with many high end missile (e.g. AMK, GWH ? ) 100 or above. 

 

Some people will want an "superior" kit with everything inside, but this is not the concept at Kinetic. 

 

So i want to take this chance to express our product design concept, for those high end customer, you can understand what we are going to deliver.

 

1. We never want to replace all possible resin upgrade option;

2. Instead we carefully plan which features goes for plastic and which option leave to aftermarket company;

3. The idea of plastic injection is "volume", we leave those "less demand" item into aftermarket company where they have a better cost/effective ratio

4. Kinetic target to provide 85% of the common customer group with what they need vs the cost / selling price. 

 

So we never want to be a model brand as we include everything inside the box. 

Also, leaving the option to AM guys will make more option to different customer demand. Some may want more details in cockpit, some in engine, some in wheel....

 

Regards

Raymond - KineticModel

Raymond, first of all welcome. And thank you for taking the time to answer our doubts.

 

Regarding the magnets,maybe due to miscommunication or something else,when Kinetic announced the kit and the Magfire feature, I believe everyone was convinced that the magnets would be included in the box,hence the disappointment when those who bought the kit found out it wasn't. All good.

 

As for the multi-part weapons, I get your point about cost and believe it. But when comparing prices between your F-16 and the other brands we mentioned that provide single piece weapons, the prices are not that different. At least comparing to AMK, that sold their Mig-31 and F-14D for 60€ on many shops. Its what I paid for mine,bought new. And at Telford the F-16 was selling for 50£,which is 58€,give or take. I won't compare with GWH because their kit prices flutuate a lot,depending on the market. But as an example,I bought their Su-27UB for 67€. So, prices are not that different in the end.

None of this are deal breakers of course,far from it. My real concern was to find out if this new F-16 is a major improvement over your old ones, fit wise, and from what I've seen and heard from a friend that started building it once I brought him the kit from Telford,the kit is in fact top notch to build. So congrats for that and please don't forget the Gina! I know my friends here in Portugal have sent you a lot of research material about the portuguese Gina to help :)

Edited by dreamwriter
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7 hours ago, dreamwriter said:

Raymond, first of all welcome. And thank you for taking the time to answer our doubts.

 

Regarding the magnets,maybe due to miscommunication or something else,when Kinetic announced the kit and the Magfire feature, I believe everyone was convinced that the magnets would be included in the box,hence the disappointment when those who bought the kit found out it wasn't. All good.

 

As for the multi-part weapons, I get your point about cost and believe it. But when comparing prices between your F-16 and the other brands we mentioned that provide single piece weapons, the prices are not that different. At least comparing to AMK, that sold their Mig-31 and F-14D for 60€ on many shops. Its what I paid for mine,bought new. And at Telford the F-16 was selling for 50£,which is 58€,give or take. I won't compare with GWH because their kit prices flutuate a lot,depending on the market. But as an example,I bought their Su-27UB for 67€. So, prices are not that different in the end.

None of this are deal breakers of course,far from it. My real concern was to find out if this new F-16 is a major improvement over your old ones, fit wise, and from what I've seen and heard from a friend that started building it once I brought him the kit from Telford,the kit is in fact top notch to build. So congrats for that and please don't forget the Gina! I know my friends here in Portugal have sent you a lot of research material about the portuguese Gina to help :)


I can see that, we cannot speak for other brand, but maintaining reasonable margin is needed for a continue operation for a company.  
 

We can offer one pc missile but we may not able to continue to develop new kit for the market.  

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In box reviews

- ref. 48102 - Lockheed-Martin F-16C Block 25/42 Viper 

Source: https://www.hyperscale.com/2022/reviews/kits/kinetick48102reviewbg_1.htm

 

kinetick48102reviewbg-1.jpg

 

- ref. K48100 - General Dynamics F-16AM Fighting Falcon - MLU NATO Viper 

Source: https://hyperscale.com/2022/reviews/kits/kinetick48100reviewbg_1.htm

 

PI000000284162.jpg

 

V.P.

Edited by Homebee
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1 hour ago, IT_Man said:

Was going to buy the A from Hannants - looked the other day and sure the price was £50, but now up to £71?! Had they messed up originally (did anyone get one for £50?)

 

(Sold out in any case now)

 

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/K48100

To me it shows 53.25£ with 10% if you backorder. Original price is 59£

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1 hour ago, IT_Man said:

Was going to buy the A from Hannants - looked the other day and sure the price was £50, but now up to £71?! Had they messed up originally (did anyone get one for £50?)

 

(Sold out in any case now)

 

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/K48100

All items listed on the Hannants website have two prices, depending on what you've selected/where you're located. The lower one (£53.25) is an export price less UK VAT, the higher price (£71) is the UK retail price. Based on what's on the website now it seems that anyone who bought one at Telford for £50 got a bargain!

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As I understand, the plastic in the F-16A and F-16C kits are exactly the same. The only differences are the decals and instructions, and the price. If you are using aftermarket decals for building an A, it would be cheaper to buy the C kit. The decals for the Danish and Norwegian aircraft are "useless", so aftermarket decals would be required anyway.

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19 hours ago, IT_Man said:

Was going to buy the A from Hannants - looked the other day and sure the price was £50, but now up to £71?! Had they messed up originally (did anyone get one for £50?)

 

(Sold out in any case now)

 

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/K48100

I bought both boxings at Telford for £50 each and another online from Hannants for £45.

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