Vesa Jussila Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 I started new project because Lancia S4 project is slow and waiting some paints to get forward. I was hoping this to have simple and fast project, but looks that this is not true and this will be more challenging that I wished. General information This car was developed for season -83 to replace Gr.6 car LC1 that was built for previous season. LC2 was made to meet new Gr.C regulations. LC2 was built with Dallara who designed the chassis and engine partner Ferrari. Engine was in first season 2.6 liter twin turbo. Turbos were from KKK and four valves per cylinder. Transmission was from Hewland Race History -83 Car was raced first time in Imola -83 and was able to take pole position. This race was showing what was coming for this car. In good and bad. Leading car got out due to tyre problems and second car was 12 laps behind winning car. Next time Lancia managed to finish race in 5th race of season. In seasons two last races Lancias managed to finish second place. Kit This kit is originally done by Protar and is typical for period. First it was released in 1984 and I was not able to get this kit at period. Re-release was done by Italeri in 2019 and this is what I have in my hands. There is no updates done in kit, so it is what was also in Protar boxing. When I look this kit I have a bit mixed feeling. Based on decals kit should present season -83 car. I need to look my reference materials how close to this season car this really is. Le Mans car clearly needs some changes at least in head lights area. Good things: Main body looks quite good, there are some sink marks, but these should be quite easy to fix. Decal sheet look good and contains full sponsor logos. Even that in box art spnsor logos are covered in black. Cockpit details are ok for this scale and can be improved with small work. Mass produced kit is available, so we have starting point for build. I am aware that there is Modellers kit available. But this kit is really rare. Tamtech also made one, but this is designed for slot racing and I am not sure how accurate it is because it was fit for slot racing rules. Not so good: This is curbside kit, so there is no engine detail or anything for gearbox. Gearbox end should be somehow visible from rear and even partial part would have been nice in this area. Suspension have nothing to do with real thing. In rear there is only straight rod going and that is all. In real thing there is double fish-bone. In front there is toy like steering that front wheels can turn, but nothing that looks like real thing. Body is very thick molding I have understood that kit was also sold as a metal kit. This explains this and I think explains some sink marks in molding. These thick parts look some areas really bad. Lowers above front wheels look also really bad and unrealistic. Definitely need replacing. In body is also strange cap. Lower side of body have a 0,5mm mismatch both sides. In real car is nothing like this. Air intake in front looks too small and floor fitting in front looks also too thick in front also side exhaust part looks really unrealistic. Door windows also look too small and need to look how to fit these correctly. One issue is also that kit can be built to fit only certain races in season. Rear wing configuration was different between races. if someone want's build a later wide-body car heavy modification is needed. This time I don't have photos of un-started kit, but some first steps. Cockpit started General view of body Issue in body molding. So wish me a good luck. This is not going to be fast build I was hoping yesterday evening. 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelbautony Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 Hello Vesa. I too have this model, the plastic Protar version you mentioned. The moulding is awful, to be honest, as you say, the body has a scale thickness of a tank! There is something fundamentally wrong with the shape of the cockpit windscreen and the clear plastic looks like the glass used in those 'joke' glasses you used to be able to get. I'm sure these issues have been documented before, not necessarily on this forum. I know that KMP were at one time going to produce a transkit body but there has not been any progress on that for a few years now. Perhaps they too realised the difficulty of the task/shape. The decal sheet in my box are past their 'sell by' so I've re-designed and had some 'TOTIP' printed. Looking forward to see your progress. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengalensis Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 This is a lovely car that deserves a good model. Well worth some effort. In a curbside model the gearbox would end up quite deep in under the bodywork, so you might just need some good hint of the detail. I have this resin casting of a Hewland LG600 (sourced from AM's McLaren M8B) you can have if it would help your work. The Chevy BB can just be chopped off. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas.R Posted March 18, 2022 Share Posted March 18, 2022 Hello Vesa I thought long and hard about buying this kit. (As a hardcore Lancisti) However, it has so many flaws (even the front wheels are too small) that I won't buy it. The only option is to buy it - have the body scanned and then make the corrections in 3D. Then you can throw away the rest. Maybe i buy it, scan it and the decals, and sell it on a bidding platform? Here is a good review: https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/models/lc2.htm Regards Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesa Jussila Posted March 18, 2022 Author Share Posted March 18, 2022 @Andreas.R I already had this kit in my hands and I found this linked article too late. Now I am really thinking what are sensible ways to correct this. I started this so in some level I will finish it. I really think options how to make good LC2. It's clearly not easy task. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas.R Posted March 18, 2022 Share Posted March 18, 2022 (edited) Spoiler 29 minutes ago, Vesa Jussila said: @Andreas.R I already had this kit in my hands and I found this linked article too late. Now I am really thinking what are sensible ways to correct this. I started this so in some level I will finish it. I really think options how to make good LC2. It's clearly not easy task. I think i have to ask a company who scans objects, than it depends on the price. Perhaps in a year i will be able to design it with blender. But the scanning is still very interesting, as it will be easy to correct it with CAD. Can you provide the dimensions of the body, so i can get a price? It could be very interesting. I had a model in 1:43 which was quite good, but it was damaged and i don`t know where it is. I will search for it, and maybe this could be scanned. Edited March 18, 2022 by Andreas.R correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas.R Posted March 18, 2022 Share Posted March 18, 2022 (edited) Here a link for pic`s https://girardo.com/car/1983-lancia-lc2-group-c-0 Edited March 19, 2022 by Andreas.R missing pic´s 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesa Jussila Posted March 18, 2022 Author Share Posted March 18, 2022 @Andreas.R I will measure kit for you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas.R Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 Looking at these pictures, i decided to build/design one. The cockpit should be completely vacuum formed, the form is relatively easy to produce. It is the worst area of the Italeri kit. The rest of the body with 3D printing. Will determine the price of the 3D scans. Maybe this project can be realized together? Regards Andreas 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelbautony Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Andreas.R said: Looking at these pictures, i decided to build/design one. The cockpit should be completely vacuum formed, the form is relatively easy to produce. It is the worst area of the Italeri kit. The rest of the body with 3D printing. Will determine the price of the 3D scans. Maybe this project can be realized together? Regards Andreas Hello Andreas. I'm very interested in your proposal. as I said previously in this thread, I have designed 'Totip' decals for this car. If you decide to go in to production for a cockpit and body please consider selling one to me. One question, and I'm not sure if you already considered it as you mention vac-forming, is how you would produce the glass/ windscreen, windows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas.R Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 I would make the whole cockpit (from the front/bottom of the windscreen up to the line where the the rear engine cover (rear hood) begins. Take a look at the pictures of the link. Between the windscreen/ windows and the body there are only minimal gradations, it is impossible to achieve this with separate window parts. the entire cockpit is very smooth. It is impossible to achieve this with separate window parts. I am still I'm still trying to figure out the best way to do Regards Andreas 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesa Jussila Posted March 20, 2022 Author Share Posted March 20, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, Andreas.R said: Will determine the price of the 3D scans. Maybe this project can be realized together? I am in for this project. I will PM my email address for you. And maybe I need to change topic also to cover both projects. Edited March 20, 2022 by Vesa Jussila 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas.R Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 Hello Vesa. got the price for scanning the body : 65,-- € must be sent by post. Working on the "cockpit bubble" Regards Andreas 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas.R Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 Hello Vesa, I designed the "cockpit bubble" in 3D. It consists of 8 elements to customize the whole piece. The windscreen was particularly difficult to fit in the correct shape. This is the biggest weak point of the model. This part is to be vacuformed, the internal parts (roll bar window cutouts etc.) should be printed with the body and the vacuformed part then glued on. I still have to make some adjustments, but overall it turned out quite well. It was not easy for me to model the bubble using photos. It would be easier if appropriate plans existed. But this design is very customizable/changeable. I will be happy about all comments Regards Andreas 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelbautony Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 I'm very interested in this Andreas. I'm watching carefully. Can you tell me if if the side windows will also be 'vacuformed'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas.R Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 9 hours ago, modelbautony said: I'm very interested in this Andreas. I'm watching carefully. Can you tell me if if the side windows will also be 'vacuformed'? Hello Tony. yes, the whole "bubble" will used as form for the vacuformed cockpit. The cockpit from the model should be sanded to match the vacuformed part, as it is very thick this should be no problem. Then the vacuformed part should be glued on and the gap should be filled with putty, At last the decal should be applied . This would be the simple way to eliminate the flaw of the original! Regards Andreas 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesa Jussila Posted April 9, 2022 Author Share Posted April 9, 2022 @Andreas.R I will pm you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob de Bie Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 (edited) On 3/18/2022 at 2:05 PM, Andreas.R said: Hello Vesa I thought long and hard about buying this kit. (As a hardcore Lancisti) However, it has so many flaws (even the front wheels are too small) that I won't buy it. I too long thought that the front wheels were too small, but my latest analysis showed that they are correct after all. See my review at https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/models/lc2.htmhttps://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/models/lc2.htm The front tire is correct for the Pirelli too, although it looks plain silly. Maybe it's because the sidewalls are too rounded - I don't know. If I were to build a Pirelli-shod car (first two races only, Monza and Silverstone) I would use *slightly* larger scratch-built tires. They improve the looks greatly. The one I built corresponds to the slightly larger Dunlop tires fitted afterwards. I haven't tried to copy these tires in resin, but the next time I pour a mould I will give it a try. Rob Edited April 26, 2022 by Rob de Bie 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob de Bie Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 On 3/20/2022 at 9:56 AM, Andreas.R said: Looking at these pictures, i decided to build/design one. The cockpit should be completely vacuum formed, the form is relatively easy to produce. It is the worst area of the Italeri kit. The rest of the body with 3D printing. My plan has always been to pull a mould of the cabin section of the TamTech body, and vacform a copy for use on the Protar body. But I still don't have the required mold-making materials, specifically a tooling gelcoat. And there's no guarantee that Tamiya got it 100% right. Rob 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesa Jussila Posted April 26, 2022 Author Share Posted April 26, 2022 i try tomorrow do some CAD work to this project to make some small parts. This clearly will be long project, not fast build as i planned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas.R Posted April 28, 2022 Share Posted April 28, 2022 I am now working with BLENDER to get the Cockpit bubble in the right shape. But i have to get in to this software. It is really good for this kind of forms. I also ordered a SVG-file for this Lancia. I will keep you informed about my progress. Regards Andreas 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas.R Posted April 29, 2022 Share Posted April 29, 2022 (edited) On 4/26/2022 at 2:58 PM, Rob de Bie said: My plan has always been to pull a mould of the cabin section of the TamTech body, and vacform a copy for use on the Protar body. But I still don't have the required mold-making materials, specifically a tooling gelcoat. And there's no guarantee that Tamiya got it 100% right. Rob Hello Rob, It is always difficult to see the exact shape on transparent surfaces. but it looks miles better than the Italeri Lancia! By the way, the same problem is also noticeable on the photos, here in particular the windshield. The frame of the windows looks a little too lifted off. Therefore, these should only be visible with the decals. The decals might need to be changed/adjusted a bit. There was a Tamtech Lancia at the well known bidding platform for 600 $ from Japan ! Regards Andreas Edited April 29, 2022 by Andreas.R missing pic´s 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob de Bie Posted May 1, 2022 Share Posted May 1, 2022 On 4/29/2022 at 12:08 PM, Andreas.R said: Hello Rob, It is always difficult to see the exact shape on transparent surfaces. but it looks miles better than the Italeri Lancia! [snip] There was a Tamtech Lancia at the well known bidding platform for 600 $ from Japan ! I got my TamTech body long ago (20+ years) when they were still available as spare parts, for normal money. The separate bodies are still affordable it seems: 27 US$ for this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/224808842733?hash=item3457a6b5ed:g:iegAAOSwaQ5h8ZMr I finally found a supplier of tooling gelcoat in small quantities, so my plan to pull a mould from the TamTech body is one step closer. But don't hold your breath.. Rob 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesa Jussila Posted May 2, 2022 Author Share Posted May 2, 2022 I have been thinking also options to make suspension parts in 3D printing. This will be so long project that better use all efforts to make this as good as possible. I just need to find good drawings related to suspension. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob de Bie Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, Vesa Jussila said: I have been thinking also options to make suspension parts in 3D printing. This will be so long project that better use all efforts to make this as good as possible. I just need to find good drawings related to suspension. I've been fiddling with my Protar model for 20+ years now, and I've collected information simultaneously. There is very little out there, and unless a very detailed publication on the LC2 comes out, I don't think you'll be able to find the information you need to do 3D CAD work of the suspension. BTW, initially the LC2 had a rather special rear suspension set-up: the lower wishbone was (roughly) at drive shaft height. This allowed totally unobstructed venturi tunnels. But it was replaced by a more standard set-up later, with wishbones through the tunnels. The best 'source' of information I found is going to classic Group-C races, and hope that an LC-2 turns up. I was lucky at the 2012 Spa Classic. But image having to figure out, let alone measure the suspension parts in a setting like this.. But you do learn a lot if you can study an actual car. Like that the LC2 has internal ducting for part of the air that comes in through the central nose opening. There's a dividing duct ahead of the instrument panel, and then it goes through the side pods, through radiators and then into the engine bay. All very complicated, and of doubtful effect. I had never ever read about this arrangement. Rob Edited May 2, 2022 by Rob de Bie 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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