Goodbye to Humbrol Enamel???

[dbostream]

I just found out about this. Has it only been stopped from being sold no recommendation to throw out any tin you already own? I don't have many Humbrol tins but about 100 Revell ones where all but 6 mention this BUTANONE OXIME/Methyl Ethyl Ketoxime. Kind of sad to throw it all away but I have been thinking about moving away from enamels for some time perhaps now is the time.

[Space Ranger]

On 7/24/2022 at 3:52 AM, dbostream said:

Has it only been stopped from being sold no recommendation to throw out any tin you already own?

As pointed out above, it is perfectly legal for Humbrol to be sold in in Great Britain (and here in the U.S., too, as far as I know). It and your Revell enamel are still useable. However, in the event you decide you don't want them, you may send them to me for disposal.

[Lespauljames]

Kind of a necrobump here, so sorry for that.

But..

Myself and other youtube model people went to Hornby HQ for talks and a look around and the Humbrol guys did a presentation for us. 

 

The supply was halted for a short while but is back after a reshuffle of the range. The range is also reduced IIRC. 

 

I dont like plugging but I did a live stream of the whole talk on my LPJ Facebook if anyone wants the word direct from Humbrol. 

( lpj models) 

[George Norman]

Down to about 80 colours I understand, Getting rid of the non sellers.

[lasermonkey]

11 minutes ago, George Norman said:

Down to about 80 colours I understand, Getting rid of the non sellers.

The main thing Humbrol had going for it was the wide range of colours. I feel they have just dropped their USP. 
More and more I wish that Humbrol (and Airfix) were freed from the shackles of Hornby. To me, it seems like they’re run solely to prop up a vanity project. 

[RidgeRunner]

Like many of you, I have been a Humbrol user on and off since the 1960s. Nothing has dropped off yet! I have also been considering options and will almost certainly embolden my allegiance to Colourcoats while exploring the compatibilities with primers like Mr Surfacer, metals such as Vallejo and other varnishes. It is probably the right thing to be  doing anyway

 

Martin

  

[Casey]

On 7/27/2022 at 4:47 AM, George Norman said:

Down to about 80 colours I understand, Getting rid of the non sellers.

Does it mean old good school of mixing your own colors is back?

[stevehnz]

It strikes me that Humbrol has missed a golden opportunity over the years to make it's paints more user friendly, not simply from the quality point of view but from the colour ID pov, in it's range are quite a few that are decent matches for standard FS & BS shades, decent enough for the majority of their buyers but it is often difficult to tell which they are. Over time I have noted some of their plethora of grey's which give reasonable matches for various standard shades. Also the greens, the browns/tans .... etc, but it would be useful to be able to deduce thus stuff with having to look it up online all the time. I was going to suggest to @Casey when she first graced our portals that a data base of closeish matches to the most useful Humbrol shades would be a handy thing, but I could not bring myself to inflict that on her, neither is this a roundabout way of doing so Casey. Humbrol has, over the last decade or so made efforts to introduce some shades that are colour matched to available sources, their RLM ones, Azure Blue, that we battered them into submission with the biggest colour thread of all time, maybe, they appear to have only done one run. 🤔 A continuance of this idea, with better naming of the useful shades they have, coupled with what I perceive to be their current better quality (I've found their most recent paints excellent to use) could re-establish their reputation in modellers eyes. Reintroducing some shades like ADF grey & Brown Bess (PC10?) would not do them any harm either. It is my feeling that modellers nowadays look for better accuracy & info, Humbrol has rather dropped the ball on this to their own detriment. IMHO of course. I wonder if anyone at Humbrol does any meaningful market research or are they applying the old British Leyland model of churn them out & they'll sell. We know what happened there don't we. ☹️

Steve.

[Casey]

2 hours ago, stevehnz said:

modellers nowadays look for better accuracy & info

I do look for accuracy. I also do like some of Airfix models (starter sets!) 'as is', without thinking of research. Just need a color and make them.

 

I also wanted to preserve Humbrol colors because I saw them going away, and at some day in futures maybe samples of real Humbrol measurements outside of RGB may be as elusive as some rare WW2 artifacts...

 

And thanks to them I learned how to calculate that RAF Azure Blue is (an example):

 

RAF017 - Azure Blue - Flat
    Suggested using total of 18 parts  Expected: #899DC6, Simulated: #889CC5
        Titanium White: 15
        Prussian Blue Hue: 2
        Primary Magenta: 1

 

And I couldn't stop myself from mixing the above recipe

 

The left one is original color, the right one is mix I just did for fun and measured it.

 

So, I consider that part a success!

 

... but I also learned how poor Humbrol color calls were... and that I can do better.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Casey

[stevehnz]

I did some playing around myself  & reached the following result I was pretty happy with.

On page #6 of the Azure Blue thread, all 16 pages of it, hell, was that 10 years ago.  @John started it.

Steve.

 

[Casey]

@stevehnz I find it really interesting that your recipe is using similar trio of shades: White, Indigo a hint of Magenta....

 

And while this thread was a really long one, I really loved it... The conclusion as far as I understood was, that the acrylics are missing this color matched well enough...  My mixes are acrylics so I may actually provide something useful there

 

My equations tends to tell me that this color actually did use Prussian Blue itself. And that is a problem for acrylics, since Prussian Blue pigment is not possible to be used in this medium.

 

The simple mix from above goes within 1.8DE range which is good but not perfect. I do have some closer matches, let me check them out...

 

_{*turns on elevator music onto 'watch paint dry'. Sounds like a smooth jazz..*}

Edited July 29, 2022 by Casey

[Casey]

@stevehnz Here you go, I did a necromancy there

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Casey

[MikeR]

From what I can see from the Humbrol website itself, the enamels have been slimmed down to 80 or so colours as posted above. However the full range still appears to be available in acrylic.

 

For example the three colours needed for the upper surface of the USAF SEA scheme, 116, 117, and 118 are no longer listed as available in enamel, but they are in the acrylic range. Which is a pity as 116 is a better match for RAF Dark Green than the usual Airfix staple of 30!

 

Mike.

[Alex Gordon]

9 minutes ago, MikeR said:

For example the three colours needed for the upper surface of the USAF SEA scheme, 116, 117, and 118 are no longer listed as available in enamel, but they are in the acrylic range. Which is a pity as 116 is a better match for RAF Dark Green than the usual Airfix staple of 30!

 

Mike.

They aren't listing 28 ,which is the appropriate underside colour,in either form of acrylic so the full scheme can't be done from one source.They never have to my knowledge.

[lasermonkey]

30 minutes ago, MikeR said:

From what I can see from the Humbrol website itself, the enamels have been slimmed down to 80 or so colours as posted above. However the full range still appears to be available in acrylic.

 

For example the three colours needed for the upper surface of the USAF SEA scheme, 116, 117, and 118 are no longer listed as available in enamel, but they are in the acrylic range. Which is a pity as 116 is a better match for RAF Dark Green than the usual Airfix staple of 30!

 

Mike.

I honestly can’t see any reason for Humbrol No. 30 to exist. 116 is a demonstrably far more useful colour, so yeah , let’s drop that one.

Hornby seems absolutely determined to not take my money. Still, their loss is Sovereign Hobbies’s gain.

[alt-92]

3 hours ago, lasermonkey said:

I honestly can’t see any reason for Humbrol No. 30 to exist.

*looks up every instruction booklet/leaflet from the last 40+ years*

 

You sure about that?

[rod mcq]

4 hours ago, Alex Gordon said:

They aren't listing 28 ,which is the appropriate underside colour,in either form of acrylic so the full scheme can't be done from one source.They never have to my knowledge.

 

No. 28 Camouflage Grey is in the Humbrol Acrylic range now and is listed on Humbrol's website

 

Humbrol 28 Matt camouflageGrey

[jackroadkill]

5 hours ago, lasermonkey said:

Still, their loss is Sovereign Hobbies’s gain.

 

Absolutely; certainly when airbrushing, CC's enamels are far and away a nicer experience all round.

[cherisy]

On 7/31/2022 at 4:03 PM, MikeR said:

From what I can see from the Humbrol website itself, the enamels have been slimmed down to 80 or so colours as posted above. However the full range still appears to be available in acrylic.

 

For example the three colours needed for the upper surface of the USAF SEA scheme, 116, 117, and 118 are no longer listed as available in enamel, but they are in the acrylic range. Which is a pity as 116 is a better match for RAF Dark Green than the usual Airfix staple of 30!

 

Mike.

I may be wrong But i read somewhere on another thread that there would only be a limited number of colours in the first batch with more to follow. Lets hope thats the case as all the greys have dissappeared also.

[lasermonkey]

The current Humbrol  enamel colour charts include nos. 116-120, the US greys, RAF camouflage colours and the RLM shades. I suspect we will be seeing these appear in due course. I hope the move away from MEKO and the adoption of a new anti-skinning agent means that we won’t have to accept just half a tin’s use before it dries solid any more. 

[Beardie]

Sorry to resurrect an out of date topic but I am wondering if anyone happens to know of a source in the UK where a smallish amount of MEKO or a suitable anti-skinning agent that could be added to tins already incorporating 'MEKO' can be got. I am sure I am not alone in finding that tins of Humbrol enamel paint, not to mention ordinary 'gloss' Alkyd decorative paints and signwriting and coach painting Alkyd enamels typically start to suffer from 'skinning' when you reach down to about a half tin or less and I am guessing that this is down to there being insufficient 'anti-skinning' agent left in the tin.

As I understand it the way Butanone Oxime/MEKO/MethylEthylKetoxime 'works' is simply that it creates a heavy vapour layer over the paint in the tin which prevents oxygen coming into contact with the surface of the Alkyd paint and therefore stops the Alkyd resin from oxidising (what we think of as drying) and, once the paint is in the open air the Butanone Oxime gases off and the paint 'dries'. That being the case I am guessing that a few additional drops (not much at all) as the paint tin empties will help preserve the paint for longer so that you stand a chance of using the whole tin you paid for. I have read that MEKO is still allowed to be sold in the UK but haven't been able to locate a source of a small amount of it. 

 

[Circloy]

Try your local specialist automotive paint supplier, the type that match/mix paints they may use it or similar.

 

Otherwise I suspect you need to track down a supplier to educational establishments (i.e. schools/universities) an pray that, in these risk adverse times, there is an educational use for it. Even the your probably looking @ 2.5 litres minimum.

[keefr22]

On 10/11/2022 at 01:25, Beardie said:

a source in the UK where a smallish amount of MEKO

 

I'm no chemist so have no idea if it would work due to any additional ingredients in it, but would Slater's Mekpak poly cement be worth a try? Alternatively maybe Slaters could point you in the direction of a supplier of MEK?

 

Supplier of mekpak (no association);

 

https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/slaters-sl0502.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAyMKbBhD1ARIsANs7rEE6_JKMio4q5M5MuGYMvNtPy318Lkt_aMv5AQGcWcwAlCJUa8tbUxoaAn7yEALw_wcB

 

Keith

[Beardie]

Unfortunately it's not MEK but rather MEKO @keefr22 it's the added 'O' for Oxime that makes the difference however I have discovered that the 'Brush Mate Trade System' brush storage containers apparently used Methyl Ethyl Ketone Oxime as the vapour cloud/oxidisation barrier although it appears to have had additional alkanes etc. involved in it. It would appear that they have now changed their recipe too and removed the MEKO. I ordered some of the Brush Mate fluid before I realised they had changed the recipe although there is still a chance that it might be 'old stock' and be largely MEKO. Either way I will experiment with a half-used tin of Humbrol to see if it keeps it from skinning and doesn't affect the drying and resulting paint film. On another point for anyone who uses Enamels and the old Hairy sticks a Brush Mate system might be a handy thing. Basically it works in the same way as an anti-skinning agent works in tins of paint. You get a box which holds brushes suspended in it and had a pad in the case of the small version or a bottle and wick in the Trade 20 which contains the heavy solvent MEKO or MEKO substitute. When you are finished with a brush, rather than clean it out you can just give it a rinse, or if you are going to use the same colour again just stick in the box 'as is' and the vapour cloud inside the box will stop the paint hardening on the brush and prevent residue from drying in the hairs. If I recall correctly they claim that it will keep paint from drying on your brushes for a very long time. Useful even if you happen to use gloss and Alkyd paints regularly and hate using gallons of white spirit and spending ages scrubbing your brushes clean. 

[Pinehilljoe]

why is it all the good things are hazardous.