Messerschmitt Komet White 13

[Flintstone]

I am building a Komet model at the moment and it occurred to me that virtually all the kit manufacturers have included White 13 as one of the chosen colour schemes, but I do not think I have ever seen any images of the real aircraft. Is anyone aware of any images and also what colours do you think were used on that aircraft?

 

I did wonder if I should have mentioned the colours as Luftwaffe schemes can generate many options, so I apologise in advance! When I built the Hasegawa kit about 25 years ago, I went for the 70/71/65 colours, but it will be interesting to see what you think.

[72modeler]

@Flintstone

 

I'm wondering if the Me-163b  to which you are referring is actually 'Yellow 13' which was the Me-163B-0 V52 werk nummer 16310061, assigned to I/JG400, which was captured by the RAF at Husum on May 8, 1945. This information and the following is taken from Valiant Wings Airframe Album 10. There is a photo of this Komet on page 75 with the annotation that this  Komet was flown by Rudy Opitz in April, 1945, at which time it was attached to 7/JG400. 

 

(I was not able to  find any actual photos of an Me-163b marked as 'White 13, but there were numerous color profile illustrations and decal sheets with the yellow  markings. This is just a guess on my part, but since there don't appear to be any actual photos or mention of this Komet in any of the Me-163 references I have, (and I have quite a few!) or on  a search on internet websites, I'm  thinking 'White 13'  was in actuality 'Yellow 13.')

 

As far as the colors applied to 'Yellow 13,'  the following is taken from the Valiant Wings description of this captured Komet, page 75: 'It had 81/82 in a splinter pattern camouflage on the wings and fuselage center section over which was applied dense mottling of RLM 81/82. The demarcation on the nose was wavy, but the photo angle is not sufficient to show if this continued along the mid and rear fuselage. The nose cap is yellow with a black band. The lower nose and rear fuselage, plus the entire fin/rudder is covered in a very speckled effect, using the 81/82  over the base RLM 76. Published French sources show this same machine in a similar scheme, but with a hand-painted 'AirMin 203'on either side of the tail cone in white with all the  crosses and swastika  over painted, and   French roundels were applied. The 'source' for the French photos was not given.

 

From the Monogram Official Monogram Painting Guide to German Aircraft, 1935-1945, page 48, there were two color schemes for operational Me-163b's; one of which matches the information above for 'Yellow 13, if indeed that is the same airframe depicted as 'White 13'

(d) 81/82 on wings and upper fuselage with 74/75 sprayed in large mottles over the vertical tail surfaces and and lower fuselage  forward and aft of the wings. Lower surfaces in 76.

(e) 81/82 on wings and fuselage with 76 on fin/rudder and lower surfaces. 82 faintly sprayed  in large soft-edged patches  on the fin/rudder.

 

Best I can do from my reference library. I'm hoping one of our Luftwaffe 'experten'  can be of more assistance.

Mike

Edited March 4, 2022 by 72modeler
corrected spelling

[Flintstone]

Mike,

Thank you for your detailed reply.

The references I have seen suggest that White 13 was with 2/JG400 at Brandis. The various kit decal options and profiles in books (e.g. Aircraft Monograph 7)  do not show any mottling, just a solid splinter scheme. Most Komets appear to have splinter pattern wings and mottled fuselage (sometimes over solid or splinter patterns). Also this aircraft has the famous 'Like a flea' badge on the nose!

 

I understand why the kit manufacturers went for the famous red colour scheme, as it was documented, despite no photos showing the aircraft and therefore the details such as painted out codes are unknown. But with no photos, I just wonder how the kit manufacturers came up with White 13? Did one manufacturer include this option and the rest copied?

 

I think White 13 has been a decal option for Tamiya (1/100), Airfix and Heller (1/72), Hasegawa and Meng (1/32).

 

Thanks once again for your reply.

Regards

Kevin

 

 

[David E. Brown]

Gents,

 

While the Me 163 is not an aircraft type I have studied much, I might raise a few points here regarding the subject aircraft’s camouflage.

 

Assuming that it is Me 163 B-0 V52 WNr.16310061, there is a photo of this machine on page 308 of Ramson and Cammann's book (2003) and page 50 of Karl Reis' book (1969) where it is coded "Yellow I" ("1") with 7./JG 400. Its Werknummer – 10061 – is clearly seen on the tail. The authors’ state that post-war records indicate that an aircraft with this Werknummer was coded "Yellow 13", and that a photograph is known of a "Yellow 13" from this period but with a different camouflage pattern.

 

It is important to note that this machine is first recorded as being with I./JG 400 of 11 May 1944. It therefore must have been built in the previous month (April). Pointedly, this was several months before the promulgation of Sammellmitteilung 1 of 1 July 1944 that ordered the replacement of aircraft using colours RLM 70 and 71 with RLM 81 and 82, these being bombers, transports, liaison, and other types.  Fighter are not listed though later in the year one or both of these colours were seen on fighter types.  Thus, it is most probable that when completed the Me-163B-0 V52 WNr.163 10061 "GH+IU" was painted in the then-standard RLM 74/75/76 grey scheme for fighters. But as Ramson and Cammann note, when found at Husum it apparently had a different number and camouflage scheme, indicating that it was probably repainted in the RLM 81/82 colours at the unit level.

 

I have not encountered the latter photograph of “Yellow 13” in any of my books, though suspect that it might be in an older publication. A colour four view profile series appears in Windrow's 1968 book (p. 51) where it is shown as "White 13" and completed in RLM 70/71/65. So, the photo after which these profiles have been created was published sometime in the mid-1960s or earlier.  If someone could post a copy of the image here that would be most helpful.

 

Thus, this aircraft has been a profile and decal / model subject for at least 55 years but as we all know our knowledge regarding Luftwaffe camouflage and markings has advanced considerably since then.

 

Finally, I suggest visiting Rob de Bie's website on the Me 163 that has some good information on all aspects of this aircraft as well as camouflage and markings schemes: https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163.htm

 

Cheers,

 

David

 

References

 

Ransom, S., and Cammann, H.-N., 2003.

Me 163 Rocket Interceptor Volume Two.

Classic Publications, Hersham, 219 p.

 

Ries, K. Jr., 1969

Dora Kurfurst und Rote 13 Band 4 - Bildband: Flugzeuge der Luftwaffe 1933-1945.

Verlag Dieter Hoffmann, Mainz, 192 p.

 

Windrow, M., 1968

German Airforce Fighters of World War Two - Volume One.

Hilton Lacey, Chalfont St. Giles, 63 p.

[Flintstone]

David,

Thank you for your detailed reply. 

I agree that Rob's site is indeed really useful.

 

I appreciate that Yellow 13 is quite well recorded and of course as the Komets went on their grand tour of Germany to different airfields (and new units sprung up) many aircraft would have been repainted. I am not sure in my mind that Yellow 13 was once White 13 though, just because there are no images of White 13 to compare the finer details.

 

On the subject of colours, I think early Komets in 70/71/65 is fine and certainly some later ones were in the 81/82/83 as they have been described in documents of the time, along with the museum Komet that was repainted and lost its original finish. I was never convinced about the grey colours though, just because it doesn't seem the best option for land based aircraft? However, in all things Luftwaffe camouflage there will always be exceptions and I am very much NOT an expert!

 

Regards

Kevin

[David E. Brown]

I suspect that “White 13” and “Yellow 13” are the same machine, with the yellow in the appearing light in the photograph.  This could be due to the type of film used, developing process, etc. Confirmation of this could be through comparison of the machine’s camouflage pattern in the photos. And if the Werknummer is visible so much the better.

 

With respect to the use of RLM 70/71 for the machine’s camouflage, note that the first profiles of it were made in the mid-1960s when prevailing knowledge was that German aircraft were camouflaged with colours 70/71, 72/73, and less often 74/75 per Karl Ries’ first book (1963). For example, the use of greys was defined as “Sonder-Anstrich” (special paint). However, his (and our) understanding evolved with the publication of his subsequent volumes with the identity of colours use for aircraft types and new colours 78, 79 and 80 (Ries, 1965, 1967, 1972). Later researchers built upon Ries' pioneering work and continue to do so today.

 

Certainly we have unequivocal photographic evidence and preserved aircraft parts and aircraft confirming that later Me 163 machines were completed with the late RLM 81/82 series colours. Likewise, we can see that existing schemes were modified at the unit level in response to operational experiences (e.g. the need for ground concealment). Good examples of this are Me 262s of Kommando Schenk (I./KG 51) that wore a factory-finish RLM 74/75/76 scheme but quickly given a meandering or spotted pattern of a dark green.  Likewise for Me 410s of various ZG Gruppen, and in Normandy Bf 109s and Fw 190s where various patterns of a dark green on fuselage side and engine nacelles (vertical surfaces) are seen.

 

The bottom line is that our initial understanding of Me 163 camouflage is not as advanced as it is for other aircraft types, and most particularly the early production machines.  Much ‘knowledge’ is a carryover from the first interpretations dating from the mid-1960s. I have significant doubts that RLM 70/71 were factory-applied camouflage colours, and that it was more probable that RLM 74/75 greys were applied as was fitting for fighter aircraft of the period.  However, I have no hesitation in accepting that this grey scheme was soon modified at the unit level as it was inappropriate for and detrimental to ground concealment from mid-1944 onwards.

 

More research is required to create a better understanding of Me 163 camouflage colours and their use over the course of the war.

 

Best,

 

David

 

REFERENCES

 

Ries Jr., K., 1972.

Markings and Camouflage Systems of Luftwaffe Aircraft in World War II – Volume 4.

Verlag Dieter Hoffmann, Finthen bei Mainz, 128p.

 

Ries Jr., K., 1967.

Markings and Camouflage Systems of Luftwaffe Aircraft in World War II – Volume 3.

Verlag Dieter Hoffmann, Finthen bei Mainz, 112p.

 

Ries Jr., K., 1965.

Markings and Camouflage Systems of Luftwaffe Aircraft in World War II – Volume 2.

Verlag Dieter Hoffmann, Finthen bei Mainz, 112p.

 

Ries Jr., K., 1963.

Markings and Camouflage Systems of Luftwaffe Aircraft in World War II – Volume 1.

Verlag Dieter Hoffmann, Finthen bei Mainz, 110p.

Edited March 4, 2022 by David E. Brown
Syntax.

[Flintstone]

David,

Thank you for the further information.

I agree this is a complex subject and the 163 is indeed one of the less well understood aircraft from the period.

 

I need to think which aircraft I want to model this time, Perhaps, as I am using the Meng kit, an aircraft in bare metal, wood and fabric, with a few cut away details would be easier?

Regards

Kevin

[Rob de Bie]

On 3/3/2022 at 9:42 PM, Flintstone said:

I am building a Komet model at the moment and it occurred to me that virtually all the kit manufacturers have included White 13 as one of the chosen colour schemes, but I do not think I have ever seen any images of the real aircraft. Is anyone aware of any images and also what colours do you think were used on that aircraft?

 

I've been wondering about 'White 13' with a full splinter scheme since I've created my Komet website! Nearly every darn decal sheet has that option, and not a single photo of the real thing. I've tried to chase back its existence in old books and articles, but I haven't found the source.

 

Having said that, there is the photo below that probably shows 'White 13' (on the left) with a splinter scheme on its tail. At least, I think I see '13' on the rear fuselage, but I'm now viewing it on an old laptop screen. The fuselage has such a strong glare that you can't see the rest of the camouflage.

 

As for the actual colours, your guess is as good as mine. I'm often amazed how people can 'see' that RLM xx is used.

 

 

More here: https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163/wh14.htm

 

Rob

[Jochen Barett]

On 10/04/2022 at 00:45, Rob de Bie said:

+++

As for the actual colours, your guess is as good as mine. I'm often amazed how people can 'see' that RLM xx is used.

+++

Welcome to the club!

[Flintstone]

Rob,

That is a very interesting photo. I can see why you think it is white 13, top prize for the best image to date!

It is a shame that the canopy of 14 blocks out the view of the famous flea badge. If indeed it had them on both sides?

 

It is still difficult to understand how this scheme came to be so popular with the kit manufacturers, with so few details.

Regards

Kevin

[Rob de Bie]

AFAIK, this photo is a still from a movie. So maybe the are more details to be seen in the movie itself. I will try to find it. The crossing of a railroad track during that film shows that it was filmed at Brandis. See this thread for more details on that:

 

 

The glare on the fuselage is another thing to look into some more. How can it be so strong?

 

Rob

[Flintstone]

The glare is interesting. If you look at the fin and rudder, apart from the national marking, it appears to be glossy. The Me163A aircraft were gloss coated to reduce drag, Would the early Me163Bs also be gloss coated, despite the splinter camouflage? The aircraft in front is definitely matt finished. 

[Rob de Bie]

I just watched the film that yielded the still. You can't see more details of White 13, but I did notice that the scene was shot with lighting conditions that suggest a heavy overcast. You can see it too in the still: there are hardly any shadows from the Komet (nor the Scheuch-Schlepper in the film).

 

That leads to the question whether a glare can be produced under these conditions. I would say no. Also, the glare would be on specific parts of the upper fuselage, that would have the right angle to reflect into the camera. A glare on the full upper fuselage is unlikely I would say.

 

That in turn leads to the idea that we're seeing a very, very strange camouflage.. The strangest Komet camouflage ever I would dare to say!

Rob

[Flintstone]

Perhaps the film crew were using additional lighting?

[Rob de Bie]

Mwa, I don't see any signs of that in the panning film footage. And it would be backlight for the main subject.

 

Rob

[Rob de Bie]

Here's how I interpret the large photo posted earlier, and it's a very strange camouflage scheme. I also collected all profile drawings that I know on this webpage: https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163/wh13.htm. I'm open for discussion!

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

[Milos Gazdic]

Hello Rob,
I have opened the still you've uploaded above, in Photoshop & darkened the mid-& high-tones and didn't manage to see "White 13" on the rear fuselage at all  
I see some squiggles there but doesn't look like 13. 
But I would agree with you that fuselage is RLM 76. Tone on the top of the fuselage & bottom is the same. Shot was taken on completely overcast day & bright areas are not the reflections as originally suggested.
Best,
Milos

[Jochen Barett]

13 hours ago, Rob de Bie said:

Here's how I interpret the large photo posted earlier, and it's a very strange camouflage scheme. I also collected all profile drawings that I know on this webpage: https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163/wh13.htm. I'm open for discussion!

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

 

If I stare at the pic long enough I do not see the white 13 (it just looks like noise or grain), if I stare too long, I can see the white 13, but no matter how long I stare at the picture I do not see that darn Balkenkreuz on the fusealge or the side window behind the canopy.

 

Do I actually see the fuselage or just a light tarpaulin covering a dark&blak-green fuselage from tail to canopy?

 

"I'm open for discussion!" me too. And maybe I'll visit the doctor to get an eye exam.

[Milos Gazdic]

I see the rear view window. But I do not see the Balkenkreuz

[Jochen Barett]

12 minutes ago, Milos Gazdic said:

I see the rear view window. But I do not see the Balkenkreuz

 

Stare longer, enlarge the picture, and the rear window will disappear. Stare longer and you will see the shade cast onto the fuselage by the front edge of the tarpaulin. Stare longer at the enlarged pic and white 13 and the RLM 76 on the stabilizer will turn into wrinkles of a tarpaulin. Stare, stare, stare, you are getting tired, your eyelids are getting heavier, stare, I count 1 - 2 - 3 you fall asleepp, you are now at Brandis, you walk up to the plane, you lift up the tarpaulin, what number and paint do you see?

[Rob de Bie]

Thanks for the feedback guys! I must admit that I did not see it coming that none of you see '13' on the rear fuselage. I've always seen, ever since I posted that photo on the White 14 page. But when I was working on an old laptop recently, I could not see it either. So maybe it's very dependent on the screen you're using? But there's always the option that I'm seeing things that aren't there.

 

Regarding the Balkenkreuz, I don't see it either, but I do see it in this other version of the same still, a much darker version of the previous still. Here I see the Balkenkreuz and the figure '3'. Plus the rear window is much better visible.

 

Please keep the feedback coming!

 

 

Rob

 

[Jochen Barett]

Admitted! Now I see the white outline Balkenkreuz and white 13 - and mottling on the fuselage. 🙈 🙊

 

Milos, you may wake up, there is not tarpaulin!

Edited May 15, 2022 by Jochen Barett

[Werdna]

23 minutes ago, Rob de Bie said:

Here I see the Balkenkreuz and the figure '3'. Plus the rear window is much better visible.

 

I see the balkenkreuz in the above pic.  I also see the shape of the rear quarter window.  But I don't see any numbers.  But I've only had two cups of coffee this morning so far, so there's still time..  

 

Edit:  Actually, I do see a '3' - I was looking on the wrong side of the cross(!)

[Rob de Bie]

I assume the '13' question is out of the way now. I was startled by Jochen's observation of mottles on the fuselage. But indeed, in the darker photo large spots are visible. I made the following interpretation. What do you see? Open for comments as usual.

Rob

 

 

 

 

[Milos Gazdic]

I see the 3 + now!
and yes. your patches seem to be on right places. But now I wonder about camo