The LRDG and 44 gallon petrol drums

[dcrfan]

Carius recently posted photos of an absolutely fantastic LRDG 30 cwt truck model.   

 

It has, like many LRDG models (and 1:1 scale post war copies) a couple of 44 gallon petrol drums in the cargo. As I don't want to spoil Carius's thread I've started this separate thread.  Apart from one photo showing a single axle trailer fitted with two 44 gallon drums being towed by a CMP Ford F30 LRDG truck and a burnt out F30 (Bearded Brigands by Brendan O'Carroll pg 131) with two drums has anyone actually got a photo of the LRDG Chev 30 cwt trucks carrying 44 gallon drums as I can't find any.  The two photos have the fuel hungry Ford F30 in common not the Chev 30 cwts.

 

E516CA70-1C8D-4E87-9419-5CAB4F74B74F_1_105_c by tankienz, on Flickr

Edited March 3, 2022 by dcrfan

[Kingsman]

I would wonder about the utility of such a large container out on operations.  How is it to be used for refuelling?  2 and 4-gallon cans can be emptied directly into fuel tanks and discarded when used to save weight and space.  Transferring fuel from a drum would need a pump of some sort.  Hand pumps for fuel drums were certainly around at the time.  I suspect that might have been slower in practice than cans.

 

If a fuel drum is hit by small arms fire or shell etc fragments you risk losing the entire contents and therefore becoming stranded for lack of fuel.  And you will have all that fuel slopping around the rear bed and soaking into anything wood or fabric stowed there.  Thus creating a massive incendiary.  While the smaller cans will also leak if hit, the loss of fuel and fire risk are reduced, and they are more easily thrown overboard.  Unless I'm much mistaken a part-empty fuel drum will also contain an explosive atmosphere and will thus have effectively become a thermobaric bomb in the back of the vehicle.  Unlike the movies, full-ish fuel tanks don't explode - they burn.  But empty-ish tanks can explode and spread the remaining burning contents.

 

So my vote is that it would not be done on operations.  But it appears attractive from the modelling perspective if you don't think it through from the use perspective.  Which is sadly too often the case with model AFV stowage when you look at what people stow and how they stow it.

 

But drums might have been carried on journeys behind the lines, bearing in mind the distances often involved.  I suspect the posted photo is behind the lines, noting the tilts and tarps and lack of evident weapons.  I can't see them taking a trailer on patrol, and I'm not sure that has ever been photographed - even with the increased fuel consumption of the F30.  These certainly used more than the Chevy WB, needing more to be carried thus further increasing consumption and effectively negating the potentially increased 4WD mobility through extra weight.  Towing a trailer might reduce the vehicle weight but won't do anything to improve consumption.  Dragging a 1/2 ton+ trailer through soft going will just be a dead weight.  The 400-ish litres of fuel alone will be about 300kg.  Is that a German trailer?

 

I believe that LRDG would establish fuel and ammunition drops for use by patrols running short.  Taking fuel drums with pumps to those might make some sense.  Perhaps that's where those drums on the trailer are destined.

[dcrfan]

Ah we are thinking the same.  I agree 44 gal drums are not practical or safe except for establishing out of contact fuel dumps.  

 

I assume the trailer is ex German or at least based on a German concept as there are a couple of photos of similar but not identical designs in Axis History Forum Wehrmacht fuel tanker thread being towed behind tanks on Eastern Front.

 

I do note the trailer does appear to have the sand tires fitted similar to the truck. Using common tyres make perfect sense.

[czechnavy]

There is a set of 1/76 plans for the German two-wheeled fuel trailer in the IPMS(UK) Magazine of July 1971 - looks identical to the trailer in the photo above except the plans include mudguards.

[John B (Sc)]

Out of curiosity, how did the LRDG establish these 'fuel drops'? What sort of vehicles and what sort of fuel containers would be used for that?

 

Hand pumping out of  a44 gallon drum takes a wee while - say ten to fifteen minutes per drum by my memory - from refuelling aircraft years ago, But we were not in a desperate hurry  ! 

[Nick Belbin]

There was a Heavy Section that used a White and Mack trucks - I guess they'd be used to stock up fuel supplies.

 

Nick

[dcrfan]

3 hours ago, czechnavy said:

There is a set of 1/76 plans for the German two-wheeled fuel trailer in the IPMS(UK) Magazine of July 1971 - looks identical to the trailer in the photo above except the plans include mudguards.

Yes I have that drawing.  Same concept but details are quite different.

[Kingsman]

3 hours ago, John B (Sc) said:

Out of curiosity, how did the LRDG establish these 'fuel drops'? What sort of vehicles and what sort of fuel containers would be used for that?

Heavy Section probably to establish them. But big trucks like the Macks were a bit big and vulnerable to take into "no man's land" or behind enemy lines. I also recall reading, but can't recall where, that outgoing patrols would take excess items to establish or re-stock dumps.

 

I suspect that 2 and 4 gallon cans were more likely than drums in dumps, if only for "grab and go". Drums would mean stopping for longer, which might not be tactically sound. German and Italian forces deployed their own ground assets and air recce, which might appear at inopportune moments. Like in the middle of pumping fuel from drums..........

 

I think we're scratching around trying to find flimsy excuses for the carriage of fuel drums on models.

 

On which subject, has anyone else noticed the number of after market stowage sets that also improbably include fuel drums? Quite apart from hefting 140-ish kg of full fuel drum onto an engine deck there's the risk of filling your engine compartment with leaking fuel or even burning fuel, neither of which will end well. And why carry an empty drum full of explosive vapour.......

[Jochen Barett]

6 hours ago, dcrfan said:

Ah we are thinking the same.  I agree 44 gal drums are not practical or safe except for establishing out of contact fuel dumps.  

 

I assume the trailer is ex German or at least based on a German concept as there are a couple of photos of similar but not identical designs in Axis History Forum Wehrmacht fuel tanker thread being towed behind tanks on Eastern Front.

 

I do note the trailer does appear to have the sand tires fitted similar to the truck. Using common tyres make perfect sense.

"German" - Without fenders / mudguards?

[malpaso]

I seem to recall reading that 44 gal drums weren’t used by LRDG as too large and unwieldy.  However that empty drums sometimes made a handy bin for weapons, sticks, poles etc that otherwise would need individually tieing  down to stop them falling around or off the vehicles.  But that would need a photo for proof too!

[Johnny Tip]

I also read they preferred the rectangular cans and 'flimsies' as they were easier to use and stow, and could be converted to use on a benghazi burner if cut open...

(when in doubt, brew-up) 

[dcrfan]

(when in doubt, brew-up). Can't beat that. You can go for several days as long as you have the occasional hot brew😃

 

Perhaps a 44 gallon drum of pre-brewed/stewed tea 🥴    

[Selwyn]

On 3/3/2022 at 3:23 PM, malpaso said:

I seem to recall reading that 44 gal drums weren’t used by LRDG as too large and unwieldy.  However that empty drums sometimes made a handy bin for weapons, sticks, poles etc that otherwise would need individually tieing  down to stop them falling around or off the vehicles.  But that would need a photo for proof too!

44 gal drums weren’t used by LRDG.  Err, I think the image posted puts that statement in doubt!

 

Selwyn

[Cyberduck]

The vehicle at the back is the medical truck, as it is they were the only one that had covers.

 

It would be a picture taken late in the desert war, as that is an unarmed jeep at the front

 

I would suggest that this is an evacuation of wounded by the LRDG own medical team 

[dcrfan]

4 hours ago, Selwyn said:

44 gal drums weren’t used by LRDG.  Err, I think the image posted puts that statement in doubt!

 

Selwyn

I go back to my opening question 'has anyone actually got a photo of the LRDG Chev 30 cwt trucks carrying 44 gallon drums as I can't find any.'

[Selwyn]

34 minutes ago, dcrfan said:

I go back to my opening question 'has anyone actually got a photo of the LRDG Chev 30 cwt trucks carrying 44 gallon drums as I can't find any.'

No,  but there is a photo of them dragging a couple! so they obviously did use them.

 

Selwyn

 

 

[Cyberduck]

There is a picture of an F30 truck with two 44 gallon drums in the Images of War - The Long Range Desert Group in Action 1940-1943 by Brendan O'Carroll {ISBN 152677741X). It is unlikely that the LRDG used trailers operationally, given the ground they had to cross, but there are pictures of captured Italian trailers in the book which could have been recovered by the LRDG and used

[Mike Starmer]

Might these be carrying water?  Weren't taps fitted into the filled cap aperture.  I seem to recall somewhere picture of a waterpoint having these on ground frames and filling small containers. 

[Circloy]

On 03/03/2022 at 08:24, Das Abteilung said:

Is that a German trailer?

Would appear so  link

[dcrfan]

I'm unsure if the German fuel trailers were a standardised design but if you compare the two photos the construction details are quiet different.  Fuel or water - both commodities were essential in the desert. 

 

5508C786-721C-4888-BBB9-1D011E3673DB_1_105_c by tankienz, on Flickr

 

0B2913D8-2B56-491C-80C2-4AB023F34B14_1_105_c by tankienz, on Flickr

[dcrfan]

I've just received Brendan O'Carrol's latest LRDG book - Fighting with the Long Range Desert Group, Merlyn Craw MM's war 1940-1945.  It contains numerous pictures I've never seen before.  In a quick skim thought, there are just four 44 gal drums, two at airfields, one Italian drum used as a bath in a desert base and a lone drum on the back of a burnt out 30 cwt truck in Barce town.

 

There are several useful appendixes. Appendix III 'Supplies LRDG Training Notes, January 1941'.  Fuel is described as being carried in cases while in Appendix I 'Maintaining the LRDG in the Field' and the need to move large quantities and the need to daily check for leaks.  It further explains when jerry cans were introduced into the British forces 'the LRDG was able to make good use of these containers'.   

[Spartan7]

A little late in joining this thread so my apologies.  First I have not seen a picture of the 44 gallon drums being used on an actual patrol. However, in David Lloyd Owen’s memoir, The Desert My Dwelling Place, he states that, on a patrol from Siwa to the Tripoli area in the winter of ‘41-‘42, they discovered that two of the forty four gallon drums that they were carrying contained diesel not petrol and were useless to them severely impacting the radius of the patrol. While this is mentioned only this one time in the reading that I have done, it does appear that the drums were used on patrols even if rarely. Thoughts?

[Kingsman]

On 10/31/2022 at 9:41 AM, Spartan7 said:

it does appear that the drums were used on patrols even if rarely.

I think you have exactly encapsulated the situation there.