Tbolt Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 When was the Hawker Tempest crowbar moved from the floor to the headrest? Apparently it was moved at mod 363, but does anyone know when this mod came in? Eduard have the brackets for it on all there Tempest kits headrests, though no crowbar is supplied. Does anyone have a close up of it installed at the headrest position? What was the colour of the crowbar? I've got a B&W picture from the pilot's manual, when it was mounted on the floor and it could be silver or grey green maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishplanebeer Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 The only pic I can find of the crow bar in position is on page 112 of the Valiant Wings publication on the Tempest where it's mounted horizontally on the head rest armour of a TT.5 and appears to be in the interior colour but with a lighter shade (possibly writing/instructions) in the centre section. Regards Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishplanebeer Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 I'll see if I can scan the pic in the book and post so that you can see what I mean. Regards Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbolt Posted March 4, 2022 Author Share Posted March 4, 2022 10 hours ago, fishplanebeer said: The only pic I can find of the crow bar in position is on page 112 of the Valiant Wings publication on the Tempest where it's mounted horizontally on the head rest armour of a TT.5 and appears to be in the interior colour but with a lighter shade (possibly writing/instructions) in the centre section. Regards Colin Thanks, thats the picture I already have. For a close up I'm using Tempest in the flight sim Il-2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted March 4, 2022 Share Posted March 4, 2022 Man, I hope the clips were sturdy- as if there wasn't enough to worry about in a "less than ideal landing, old boy", I don't like the thought of a nice chunk of steel just behind my neck, held by a couple of little spring-clips! 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishplanebeer Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 Plus if you had to try and use the thing in flight, say to prize open the canopy, whilst still strapped in then you'd need to be Harry Houdini to actually get hold of the thing, so it probably wasn't a pilot who suggested its new location! Regards Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbolt Posted March 5, 2022 Author Share Posted March 5, 2022 2 hours ago, fishplanebeer said: Plus if you had to try and use the thing in flight, say to prize open the canopy, whilst still strapped in then you'd need to be Harry Houdini to actually get hold of the thing, so it probably wasn't a pilot who suggested its new location! Regards Colin. I would have thought that would be easier than reaching it when it was on the footboard. Just a case of reaching behind your head with both hands to pull it out of the clips. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishplanebeer Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 True but if you have one hand on the control column to keep control and you are tightly strapped it becomes somewhat more problematic, so it would have made far more sense to have had it on the sidewall of the cockpit as with the Spitfire, or in fact anywhere within easy reach. However I've never read any accounts which refer to it being a problem so it seemed to have worked OK in practice. Regards Colin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishplanebeer Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 By the way, I'm not sure what scale you are building in (I assume 48th) but looking at the build articles in the Valiant Wings book none seem to have captured this particular detail so this is an excellent spot even if Eduard do provide the fixing clips but without the item itself. Having just bought the new Airfix 72nd scale Tempest V I'm also now wondering at what point the crow bar was moved to the head rest position and whether I need to include it, or whether it was a post war modification? If it was usually located on the cockpit floor then I can safely ignore it given the scale (plus I have no idea where it would be) but if it was there during the war it would be a nice extra touch to include. Regards Colin. Ps. I'm assuming it would be either interior green or natural metal in line with those of the Spitfire? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 I'll throw an @Chris Thomas in here, since he'd be the best one to ask. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbolt Posted March 6, 2022 Author Share Posted March 6, 2022 21 hours ago, fishplanebeer said: True but if you have one hand on the control column to keep control and you are tightly strapped it becomes somewhat more problematic, so it would have made far more sense to have had it on the sidewall of the cockpit as with the Spitfire, or in fact anywhere within easy reach. However I've never read any accounts which refer to it being a problem so it seemed to have worked OK in practice. Regards Colin. Well if you did need it while flying and you needed both hands to pull it out of the clips it wouldn't take a second on a well trimmed aircraft to so, if you've got battle damage maybe a bit more difficult to let go of the controls. Of course if you did need both hands to release it from the clips that would be a lot harder when it was on the heelboard. Then if you wanted to use the crowbar on a jammed canopy you are also going to need two hands for that anyway. But were the crowbars designed to be used in flight or were they more for after a crash landing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbolt Posted March 6, 2022 Author Share Posted March 6, 2022 18 hours ago, fishplanebeer said: By the way, I'm not sure what scale you are building in (I assume 48th) but looking at the build articles in the Valiant Wings book none seem to have captured this particular detail so this is an excellent spot even if Eduard do provide the fixing clips but without the item itself. Having just bought the new Airfix 72nd scale Tempest V I'm also now wondering at what point the crow bar was moved to the head rest position and whether I need to include it, or whether it was a post war modification? If it was usually located on the cockpit floor then I can safely ignore it given the scale (plus I have no idea where it would be) but if it was there during the war it would be a nice extra touch to include. Regards Colin. Ps. I'm assuming it would be either interior green or natural metal in line with those of the Spitfire? Yes it's the Eduard 1/48th kit. I would love to know when mod 363 started being embodied. The Mk.V pilot's notes I have, dated July 1944 states the crowbar was on the heelboard. The Mk.II notes I have state it was on the heelboard and then the headrest with mod 363 and those notes are dated August 1946. As you can see Il-2 have the crowbar black, which I believe some of the Spitfire ones were as well so green or NMF ( or were the painted silver? ) could be likely as well, it was probably the same manufacturer as the Spit ones. It's hard to say what the colour of the one in the pilot's notes is, it could be silver or green. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-21 Posted March 7, 2022 Share Posted March 7, 2022 (edited) I have an original copy of the Tempest TT.V pilot's note's. It state's that a crowbar is fitted in spring clip's on the armour plate behind the pilot's seat. A.P 2458E dated July 1950. My copy of the Tempest V pilot's note's A.P 2458C dated July 1944 state's that a crowbar is fitted to the outboard side of the right hand heelboard. It look's like the crowbar behind the pilot's seat was incorporated on the Langley conversion's to target towing aircraft. My father flew them at 233 OCU Pembrey from 1953-55. Edited March 7, 2022 by T-21 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-21 Posted March 7, 2022 Share Posted March 7, 2022 as part of a pilot's internal cockpit check's before flight on the TT.V, one had to check that the crowbar was secured and in position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-21 Posted March 7, 2022 Share Posted March 7, 2022 Some good detail here TT Mk.5 in Detail (hawkertempest.se) thanks to the website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbolt Posted March 7, 2022 Author Share Posted March 7, 2022 4 hours ago, T-21 said: I have an original copy of the Tempest TT.V pilot's note's. It state's that a crowbar is fitted in spring clip's on the armour plate behind the pilot's seat. A.P 2458E dated July 1950. My copy of the Tempest V pilot's note's A.P 2458C dated July 1944 state's that a crowbar is fitted to the outboard side of the right hand heelboard. It look's like the crowbar behind the pilot's seat was incorporated on the Langley conversion's to target towing aircraft. My father flew them at 233 OCU Pembrey from 1953-55. So I wonder if any of the standard Mk.V's had the mod? If Mk.II's were having it by around 1946 you would have thought some Mk.V would have had it, but I guess that depends on the reason of the relocation and how important it was to have it on the headrest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishplanebeer Posted March 7, 2022 Share Posted March 7, 2022 I getting the impression that the mod was probably post war so I'll leave it off my forthcoming Airfix Tempest V build when it is next in the queue. Regards Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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