49th FG P-40N camouflage markings

[Brian J]

I'm currently working on a couple of 49th FG P-40Ns and would enjoy reading opinions if these aircraft, operating in early to mid-1944 would have the Medium Green blotches applied on the upper wing/tail surfaces.  There is an often reproduced colour photo showing P-40s at Adak, Alaska (Aircraft Painting Guide, Vol. 1, page 27 by Dana Bell).  One of these aircraft shows the use of Medium Green very distinctly while the aircraft to the right does not.  Other references suggest that this scheme was not universal and one source goes so far as to suggest that the 49th FG aircraft did not have Medium Green blotches on their flying surfaces.  

 

To add to my uncertainty, while reading through Protect and Avenge:  The 49 Fighter Group in World War II by Steve Ferguson I came across a b&w photo on page 203 that shows a 3/4 overhead view of a P-40N without the green blotches.  However, on pages 152-3 there are two colour artist illustrations showing 'white 20' and 'yellow 51' (the two subjects I am modeling) with these blotches. 

 

Comments would be welcomed. 

[Buz]

Brian

 

Aircraft were delivered from the factory in a standard finish of OD/NG with Medium 42 "Fringe". Most of the photos I've seen (That are of a good enough quality and angle) show the Medium 42 on the aircraft, others are not of a good enough quality to tell for sure, or taken from the wrong angle to be sure. The aircraft shown of page 203 of protect and Avenge is not the best to work from, as its quite an old aircraft, with theater markings covering most of the areas that the Green 42 was carried, however if you look closely there are light patches on the wings that "could be" the medium green heavily faded, but they certainly are in the correct position you'd expect to find the "fringe". Other photos on pages 169, 174, 185,

 

Which aircraft in particular are you looking at building??, maybe photos exist that may be able to assist you

 

Buz

[Brian J]

Thanks for your comments, Buz.  Your comments on that b&w photo are well made as that aircraft is very weather beaten.  From what I can gather there was no standard application of the Medium Green "fringe" as you call them (gee, I never heard that term before!).  The two aircraft I am focused on are 'Keystone Kathlene' White 20 and Yellow 51 flown by Lt Don Meuten.  

 

One of the reasons I questioned the coloured artist drawings on pages 152-3 is that the nose art on 'Keystone Kathlene' shows the 'keystone' as yellow while the photo on page 234 shows it as white, the same shade as the number 20.  What did the artist base his artwork on?  I'll be using the Meteor Productions Pyn-Up decal sheet 48025 as one of my references.  

 

I'm not aware of many photos that show the flying surfaces of 49th FG P-40s.  One of my main reasons for wanting to delete the green 'fringe' is that, to me, they take away from the classic lines of the P-40!

[Seawinder]

FWIW, I've got an old decal sheet from Three Guys of 49th FG P-40Ns. They claim to have researched it thoroughly. There is no mention at all of Medium Green blotches (nor do their instruction profiles show them) except for this one bit:

 

"The P-40Ns of the 49th also carried large fuselage cocardes (star in the circle) in non-standard locations. This was apparently a peculiarity to the N-5s coming from the factory in the U.S. The original production block aircraft that arrived at the squadrons in July, 1943, for the 7th and 8th Sqs. only, have the oversized cocarde and the white bar with no blue surround and no white tails. They carried the serial numbers across the tail in yellow and had the green disruptive pattern. Sometime in August 1943 the white fin and rudder were applied in theater; sometimes the leading edge of the wing was also covered, but the tops of the horizontal stabilizers were left OD.

 

"Later-issue P-40Ns which arrived in Sept. or Oct. 1943 carried the smaller red-surround star and bar ... A third block of P-40Ns arriving in January 1944 appear to have had a number of -15 and -20 aircraft, and it was these that arrived with the standard star-and-bar with blue surround. ALL were OD and gray WITHOUT EXCEPTION."

 

This unfortunately leaves unsaid much of what is needed. One might infer that only the early block N-5s may have had the green blotches, but that's not at all certain. Hope this doesn't simpoy muddy the waters.

[Brian J]

Thanks for that additional comment.  After I forwarded my last comment I referred to those Three Guys Replicas decal instructions you referred to.  The two modeling subjects in question apparently were early -5 versions which would suggest, according to Three Guys Replicas, they would have had the green disruptive pattern.  The art work illustrates 'yellow 51' with a white bar and red surround to the cocarde while 'white 20' has the white bar but lacks the red surround.  This clarifies somewhat the time period.  While there are b&w photos that show both sides of the nose art of 'white 20' Keystone Kathlene I would love to know what the other markings of both aircraft are based on.  

 

Remember when we were kids and all we had was the box art for reference and we had to use left over kitchen paint to complete our models?  And they were beauties...as I recall!

Edited February 26, 2022 by Brian J
incorrect grammar

[Buz]

Brain and Seawinder

 

The 'Fringe' is actually what its called on Curtiss Factory drawings of the camouflage pattern (as seen from above) it states "Camouflage Wings and Horizontal tail surfaces as follows Paint upper surface Dark Olive Drab Shade 41, Bulletin 41 AC Spec 14109-A. Lower surface Neutral gray shade 42 Bulletin 41, AC Spec 14109-A. Add fringe as indicated use Dupont Synthetic enamel (Toledo Grind)". There's a further mention in Point 14 on the drawing which state " Medium Green Camouflage fringe to be used on Olive drab camouflage airplanes but not on desert camouflage airplanes".

 

Capt Stanton's #20 'Keystone Kathleen' - The Number #20 is in White on both side of the Cowls, whilst the name 'Keystone Kathleen' is in Yellow, however unlike the Profile on page 152 the shield type element behind the K is actually white as well (shown as yellow on the profile). The K of Kathleen has a shadow effect around the interior of the letter, not sure if this is black or if they've just not painted fully to the letter so making it OD.  The empty saddle marking also has a black outline in some areas and has been signed off by the artist 'Johnnie Dunn 9-5-44' (Johnnie Dunn did a lot of the HQ and 7th FS Nose arts). Spinner is likely to be OD/Blue. I believe this airframe to be finished in standard factory camouflage (OD/NG Green 42 Fringe) with the white theater markings and would be fairly worn

 

I cannot help with #51 - I have no photos or references in any of my books or my photo collection, best I could do is generalised information on what you could expect as a scheme (which I won't do unless asked)

 

7th FS got its first two P-40N's during the week 15th - 21st Aug 1943 and not full equipped until the week 19th-25 Sep 43. There is no mention of model types when the N-5's turned up, so the assumption is they are all the same model (They mention different model Type for the E/E-1/K-1 etc but not the N's).  The later N models the 49th FG used were not USAAF aircraft, most were in fact liberated, Stolen, relocated from RAAF stocks, such as 43-23194 which shows what might be part of the RAAF serial A29-694 on the fuselage (just under the edge of the White theater markings on the tail.

 

To the quote "One might infer that only the early block N-5s may have had the green blotches, but that's not at all certain". - There's quite a few a few photos of later N-5's, however the best is probably the one of 42-105732 showing it during erection at Townsville. Think this gives a very good clue on it they had them or not

 

 

As to the comment - "Later-issue P-40Ns which arrived in Sept. or Oct. 1943 carried the smaller red-surround star and bar ... A third block of P-40Ns arriving in January 1944 appear to have had a number of -15 and -20 aircraft, and it was these that arrived with the standard star-and-bar with blue surround. ALL were OD and gray WITHOUT EXCEPTION." - I assume you're trying to say that these aircraft were in the standard P-40 finish as per the Curtiss Camouflage drawings - if not Colour photo of 43-22863 'Duchess', B&W 43-22792, 43-23889, 43-24137, 43-24096 and 43-24143 plus a raft of other aircraft from multiple different theaters would like to claim exemption. Additionally I have examples of -25, -30, -35 aircraft all showing the Medium green fringe.

 

As to Three Guys Replicas decals - I won't benign them at all, I think they did a good job with the information available at the time (20 plus years ago)..........however I believe some information has been superseded since the production of this set of decals and in many cases a great many P-40 decals out there.

 

P-40 Camouflage, its very fun at times, at other times it's enough to pull your hair out.

 

Buz

 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Buz

[Seawinder]

10 hours ago, Buz said:

As to the comment - "Later-issue P-40Ns which arrived in Sept. or Oct. 1943 carried the smaller red-surround star and bar ... A third block of P-40Ns arriving in January 1944 appear to have had a number of -15 and -20 aircraft, and it was these that arrived with the standard star-and-bar with blue surround. ALL were OD and gray WITHOUT EXCEPTION." - I assume you're trying to say that these aircraft were in the standard P-40 finish as per the Curtiss Camouflage drawings - if not Colour photo of 43-22863 'Duchess', B&W 43-22792, 43-23889, 43-24137, 43-24096 and 43-24143 plus a raft of other aircraft from multiple different theaters would like to claim exemption. Additionally I have examples of -25, -30, -35 aircraft all showing the Medium green fringe.

I wasn't trying to say anything. I was continuing to quote the Three Guys text, which I offered in the first place with the proviso "FWIW." I believe Three Guys made that statement to emphasize that, contrary to various profiles, P-40Ns were not delivered in Dark Green/Dark Earth camouflage schemes.

[Doug A Jones]

My understanding is that Curtiss was paid extra for a 3 colour camouflage scheme and persisted in applying this well after being instructed by the USAAF procurement folks to stop.  Only when the payments for the additional colour were refused did they desist and revert to the OD/NG scheme.  I'm not sure what date this happened.

[ilj]

On 2/25/2022 at 2:17 PM, Brian J said:

I'm currently working on a couple of 49th FG P-40Ns and would enjoy reading opinions if these aircraft, operating in early to mid-1944 would have the Medium Green blotches applied on the upper wing/tail surfaces.  There is an often reproduced colour photo showing P-40s at Adak, Alaska (Aircraft Painting Guide, Vol. 1, page 27 by Dana Bell).  One of these aircraft shows the use of Medium Green very distinctly while the aircraft to the right does not. 

 

The aircraft 'to the right' in that Adak photo is a P-40E (those didn't have the added medium green splotches)

 

ilj

[Seawinder]

5 hours ago, Doug A Jones said:

My understanding is that Curtiss was paid extra for a 3 colour camouflage scheme and persisted in applying this well after being instructed by the USAAF procurement folks to stop.  Only when the payments for the additional colour were refused did they desist and revert to the OD/NG scheme.  I'm not sure what date this happened.

That may well be true, but if Three Guys's research is correct, that wasn't true of planes sent to the 49th FG.

[72modeler]

On 2/26/2022 at 11:55 AM, Brian J said:

Thanks for your comments, Buz.  Your comments on that b&w photo are well made as that aircraft is very weather beaten.  From what I can gather there was no standard application of the Medium Green "fringe" as you call them (gee, I never heard that term before!).  The two aircraft I am focused on are 'Keystone Kathlene' White 20 and Yellow 51 flown by Lt Don Meuten.  

 

One of the reasons I questioned the coloured artist drawings on pages 152-3 is that the nose art on 'Keystone Kathlene' shows the 'keystone' as yellow while the photo on page 234 shows it as white, the same shade as the number 20.  What did the artist base his artwork on?  I'll be using the Meteor Productions Pyn-Up decal sheet 48025 as one of my references.  

 

I'm not aware of many photos that show the flying surfaces of 49th FG P-40s.  One of my main reasons for wanting to delete the green 'fringe' is that, to me, they take away from the classic lines of the P-40!

Brian,

 

I looked in my copy of  Squadron Special 6171, 49th Fighter Group, by Ernest R. McDowell, and there were no good photos of either P-40 you mentioned; there was a notation that 1st. Lt. Donald Meuten of the 8th FS was an ace with 6 confirmed kills.

 

On paqe 53, there was a photo of the RH side of the nose of a P-40N that had the number '20'  on the intake lip, and above it was the name 'Empty Saddle'  with the figure of a naked woman in a sitting position. The photo caption stated "This P-40N (20) named Empty Saddle was flown by Major A.R.  Stanton. The P-40 was another of the aircraft within the group that had dual art work on the nose. It carried a much less elaborate figure on the port side with the name Keystone Katie." Only the nose was visible, so there was no way to determine the serial or whether or not it might have had medium green 42 blotching. 

 

From the asisbiz website P-40 Warhawk section:

Profile 00: P-40N-5 42-105834 Yellow 51 of 1Lt Donald W Meuten, 8th FS/49th FG, Gusap, New Guinea, April 1944. Meuten was another replacement pilot who joined the 8th FS in late 1943 and soon began running up a score. Flying this rather plain P-40N, he recorded six confirmed victories between 15 November 1943 and 12 March 1944, when he was credited with a triple kill during a fight near Wewak. Meuten disappeared in this aircraft on 7 May 1944 shortly after moving with his unit to the recently captured airfield at Hollandia.

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/P-40/49FG8FS/pages/Curtiss-P-40N-Warhawk-49FG8FS-Yellow-51-Donald-Meuten-New-Guinea-1944-0A.html

 

Osprey Aircraft of the Aces 55 P-40 Warhawk Aces of the Pacific, by Carl Molesworth has a color profile of Meuten's  P-40N-5 yellow '51' serial 42-105834.. It is in OD/neutral grey, but since it is a profile, there is no way to determine if it had medium green blotching. The spinner is yellow with a black band in the middle; the number '51' is in yellow behind the intake lip. There are what appear to be six kill marking sunder the windscreen; the leading edges of the wings and the tail group are a faded white, with the white on the tail curving backwards from the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. The top of the fin and rudder are yellow with a thin black band at the bottom the fuselage national insignia is the star and bar with the red surround, which seems a little fishy in the PTO. There is no photo that goes with the profile.  The written text that accompanied the profile stated " P-40N-5 42-105834, Yellow 51 of 1Lt. Donald W Meuten, 8th FS, 49th FG, Gusap, New Guinea, April, 1944. Meuten was another replacement pilot who joined the 8th FS lin late 1943 abd soon began running up a score.  Flying this rather plain P-40N, he recorded six confirmed victories between 15 November 1943 and 12 March 1944, when he was credited with a triple kill during a fight near Wewak. Meuten disappeared  in this aircraft on 7 May 1944 shortly after moving with his unit to the recently  captured airfield at Hollandia."

 

I'm afraid this is the best I can do from my references, and I have no way of confirming that the color profiles are accurate, as I haven't found the photo used in the preparation of the profiles; I hope this information will be helpful.  Maybe someone else  who has a better reference library can be of assistance.

Mike

 

FWIW, I think yellow 51 is a good looking N-5!

Mike

Edited February 28, 2022 by 72modeler
corrected spelling

[BS_w]

as the note 14
" Medium Green Camouflage fringe to be used on Olive drab camouflage airplanes but not on desert camouflage airplanes",

was added 17th march 43 on Curtiss drawing

and  TO 07-1-1 of jun 43:
"the basic camouflage scheme in permanent camouflage materials fo Army Air Forces aircraft is dark olive drab, shade No. 41, for surfaces viewed from above and extending down on sides of fuselage; medimum green, shade No. 42, in irregular splotches along all edges on the upper side of the wing and the horizontal soutline of the tail assembly; alos, along all edges of both sides of the vertical outline of the tail assembly, extending inward from the edges for varipus distances up to 20 percent of the total width ot the wing or the tail assembly....
Masking will not be employed to separate ANY COLORS. Junction lines will be blended by overspraying."

but it was written at the next paragraph:

SPECIAL.-- Use of one coat of following special permamnt finishes over materials of like type is authorized as required to conform to existing local terrain.

(a) Medium green, shade No. 42, on upper wing and fuselage surfaces for aircraft operating over terrain predominately green."

is it reasonnable to think that may be the early airplanes N produced before these date which were delivered in old standard US army camo 41/43, without 42 fringe? and later certain others entirely MG 42 on upper surfaces? and a majority in standard 41/42/43?

[Buz]

20 hours ago, BS_w said:

is it reasonnable to think that may be the early airplanes N produced before these date which were delivered in old standard US army camo 41/43, without 42 fringe? and later certain others entirely MG 42 on upper surfaces? and a majority in standard 41/42/43?

BS_w

 

You could be forgiven for thinking that, alas pictorial evidence doesn't support this. P-40N-1's such as 42-104528 (US Based) 42-104589 (51FG), 42-104590 (80FG) and N-5's such as 42-104989 (49FG), 42-105008 (23FG), 42-105011 (23FG in colour) 42-105128 (80FG) 42-105153 (CBI based), 42-105941(23FG), all show the fringe (plus many more photos of N models along with K, L and M types).

 

On 2/28/2022 at 4:52 AM, Seawinder said:

I wasn't trying to say anything. I was continuing to quote the Three Guys text, which I offered in the first place with the proviso "FWIW." I believe Three Guys made that statement to emphasize that, contrary to various profiles, P-40Ns were not delivered in Dark Green/Dark Earth camouflage schemes.

Seawinder

 

Thank you for the clarification - Curtiss P-40 camouflage is enough to send you nuts, just recently come to light that some N-5's were finished in desert Camouflage.........damn colour shots.

 

Buz

Edited March 1, 2022 by Buz

[72modeler]

9 hours ago, Buz said:

BS_w

 

You could be forgiven for thinking that, alas pictorial evidence doesn't support this. P-40N-1's such as 42-104528 (US Based) 42-104589 (51FG), 42-104590 (80FG) and N-5's such as 42-104989 (49FG), 42-105008 (23FG), 42-105011 (23FG in colour) 42-105128 (80FG) 42-105153 (CBI based), 42-105941(23FG), all show the fringe (plus many more photos of N models along with K, L and M types).

 

Seawinder

 

Thank you for the clarification - Curtiss P-40 camouflage is enough to send you nuts, just recently come to light that some N-5's were finished in desert Camouflage.........damn colour shots.

 

Buz

Roger that! Check out these P39Q's and P-40N's based on Makin Island. if you do an internet search for P-40N 15th FG Makin Island, you can see a ton  of photos of these very uniquely  painted Warhawks- the WW2aircraft.net link below also discusses the possibilities of which desert sand paint was used. 'Geronimo' has been done by some decal makers in both 1/72 and 1/48 scales.

Mike 

 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/bell-p-39-airacobra.42296/page-2

[Brian J]

Many thanks to the members who took the time to clarify the topic.  I will proceed with confidence...I'm pretty sure!  I came across a decal company a while back and was very impressed with their product line in all three major scales.  Most subjects deal with the South Pacific Theatre.  I include the following example, 48023/P-40K Warhawk, 48042/Kittyhawk Mk IV and 48048/P-40N.  I'd be interested to hear comments if anyone checks out the site.  They can be reached at www.dkdecals.cz